Does the man of sin meet the requirements to be Islamic?

[Serving]

 

 

 

 

 

[Serving]

Hi Diaste,

I would have to say it's clearly NOT bloodlines that establish succession in this case. First the scripture records the great horn came from the goat, with the goat being Greece. Then four horns came up after the great horn was broken. These four established the four nations that came out of Greece. It's not a bloodline of people, its a succession of nations or power blocks. As the scripture says in Dan 8, " 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power." This scripture and the ensuing kingdoms have nothing to do with bloodlines, its the nations that arise that are important in this case. Then cometh the little horn. "out of one of these" the scripture says, "came another horn." So obviously one of the four nations that rose after the great horn was broken is the point of origin of the little horn. Rome is not one of the "four notable ones" that arose from the end of the reign of Alexander and out of the great power of the Grecian Empire.

Further, from Dan 11 we are led to believe that the beast, antichrist, little horn, comes from the Seleucid region of the Middle East i.e. Syria, Iran, Iraq. This makes sense from the inerrancy of scripture but also in a practical sense. There are many precedents for an occupying army to put boots on the ground in close proximity to their target, also, all the nations who fought against Israel either existed, or exist today, on the same land mass as the Holy Land.

 

Here is the vision itself .. Look again :

 

Daniel 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

Four notable what? Notable heads? No, of course not, look at the context .. speaking of horns .. 1 horn was broken & in his place came up 4 notable ones .. horns !!

IF this were heads here, God would of said so within the explanation of what was already SEEN by Daniel, just like He indeed differentiates elsewhere, but He didn't, why?

Because if the vision was of 1 great horn being replaced by 4 other horns in the VISION itself..  then we wouldn't EXPECT any added narrative to explain the added vision imagery needed IF they were indeed 4 heads that Daniel was seeing in this INITIAL vision instead of horns .. no .. God  needn't explain (just like He didn't) because the context was already set / revealed, that is, a vision of a horn being replaced by 4 OTHER notable horns / kings.

Diaste, in this case, as history records, it was the 4 horns that came first, only after they were chosen came the dividing up of that kingdom into 4 .. hence God revealing the kings in that vision .. only elsewhere does God introduce the 4 heads which are their 4 kingdoms, but not here.

Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Still with horns here .. same context .. God is focussing on the kings, because out of one of them, will one day arise another .. that is a bloodline.

=====

NOW look at this same method God uses and His same lingo being expressed in these two chapters for an example only .. and pay attention to the wording / colour coding :

Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

AND

Daniel 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

 

God is using the same method of explanation for Daniel not only in those 2 chapters, but pretty much throughout the whole book of Daniel's prophetic explanations .. and in both those examples above, God is clearly focussed on the kings .. and of course the kingdoms inevitably get introduced, of course, because every king needs a kingdom after all right .. we just need to be able to differentiate between God's lingo as to what is being conveyed is all.

Have a think on it for a little bit.

Cheers.

[other one]

Is there any evil in this world that Putin is not responsible for???

 

[other one]

so now you are calling him the Antichrist.....

[FresnoJoe]

Well, you should know who is the Antichrist according to Bible and what kind of evil he is guilty for and that he is sent in hell as a judgement for this, I think the Bible have said what Putin is guilty for, hubris for one thing is enough to send him in hell, the kind he did, but we see he is not stopping there but stays in power, what else he is going to do we shall see next. You are not going to advocate to the Antichrist lol, do you? Plus he caused great suffering to true democrats and believers? Anything else you wanna know?

The Anti-Christ

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 1 John 2:22

Will Come To Israel

I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. John 5:43

And Many Will Take His Name

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. Revelation 13:16-18

Over The Name Of The God Of Abraham,

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. Revelation 19:13

Isaac And

And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. Revelation 22:4

Jacob

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Joel 2:32

[Diaste]

Hi Diaste,

I would have to say it's clearly NOT bloodlines that establish succession in this case. First the scripture records the great horn came from the goat, with the goat being Greece. Then four horns came up after the great horn was broken. These four established the four nations that came out of Greece. It's not a bloodline of people, its a succession of nations or power blocks. As the scripture says in Dan 8, " 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power." This scripture and the ensuing kingdoms have nothing to do with bloodlines, its the nations that arise that are important in this case. Then cometh the little horn. "out of one of these" the scripture says, "came another horn." So obviously one of the four nations that rose after the great horn was broken is the point of origin of the little horn. Rome is not one of the "four notable ones" that arose from the end of the reign of Alexander and out of the great power of the Grecian Empire.

Further, from Dan 11 we are led to believe that the beast, antichrist, little horn, comes from the Seleucid region of the Middle East i.e. Syria, Iran, Iraq. This makes sense from the inerrancy of scripture but also in a practical sense. There are many precedents for an occupying army to put boots on the ground in close proximity to their target, also, all the nations who fought against Israel either existed, or exist today, on the same land mass as the Holy Land.

 

Here is the vision itself .. Look again :

 

Daniel 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

Four notable what? Notable heads? No, of course not, look at the context .. speaking of horns .. 1 horn was broken & in his place came up 4 notable ones .. horns !!

IF this were heads here, God would of said so within the explanation of what was already SEEN by Daniel, just like He indeed differentiates elsewhere, but He didn't, why?

Because if the vision was of 1 great horn being replaced by 4 other horns in the VISION itself..  then we wouldn't EXPECT any added narrative to explain the added vision imagery needed IF they were indeed 4 heads that Daniel was seeing in this INITIAL vision instead of horns .. no .. God  needn't explain (just like He didn't) because the context was already set / revealed, that is, a vision of a horn being replaced by 4 OTHER notable horns / kings.

Diaste, in this case, as history records, it was the 4 horns that came first, only after they were chosen came the dividing up of that kingdom into 4 .. hence God revealing the kings in that vision .. only elsewhere does God introduce the 4 heads which are their 4 kingdoms, but not here.

Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Still with horns here .. same context .. God is focussing on the kings, because out of one of them, will one day arise another .. that is a bloodline.

=====

NOW look at this same method God uses and His same lingo being expressed in these two chapters for an example only .. and pay attention to the wording / colour coding :

Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

AND

Daniel 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

 

God is using the same method of explanation for Daniel not only in those 2 chapters, but pretty much throughout the whole book of Daniel's prophetic explanations .. and in both those examples above, God is clearly focussed on the kings .. and of course the kingdoms inevitably get introduced, of course, because every king needs a kingdom after all right .. we just need to be able to differentiate between God's lingo as to what is being conveyed is all.

Have a think on it for a little bit.

Cheers.

Well that's just an amazing way to interpret the vision. I know you like to have the horns be kings in every case and mountains be kingdoms in every case, but that just isn't the way it is. You have to realize, many have to realize an all important concept, that you and I did not write these words. We didn't give the vision to the several prophets, apostles, kings or working people. None of us have the power to bring to pass the events the words speak about. So if we are that far out of the loop, what gives any of us the right to believe we have the correct interpretation of the vision and the words of the vision?

For example, in Dan 8:16 a voice tells Gabriel to give Daniel the interpretation of the vision he saw in Dan 8:1-14. So right here, in this one verse, Dan 8:16, all other interpretations are out the window. A voice commands Gabriel to reveal the vision. Any voice that can command Gabriel has got to be very high up in the chain of command since Gabriel stands, STANDS mind you, in the presence of God. Luke 1 19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings. This being the case, standing before God, not prostrate, Gabriel must be endowed with great authority and therefore, God himself must be the voice that commands Gabriel to give the interpretation of the vision to Daniel.

Since the command to give the interpretation of the vision comes from the very highest levels of omnipotent immortal authority, the same omnipotent and eternal authority that gave Daniel the vision in the first place, I would think that this interpretation, in Dan 8:15-27, in the correct and only interpretation of the vision from Dan 8:1-14. Now that it's established that the vision came from the highest authority in the many universes, and the interpretation comes from the same all-knowing source, we can safely ignore any and all other interpretations from every other source, from the beginning of the world until doomsday.

Hence, when the passage on the interpretation of the vision says, "22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four KINGDOMS that will emerge from his NATION but will not have the same power."  then the four horns from this vision represent KINGDOMS, not kings. Now the scripture says that the two horns of the ram represent the KINGS of Media and Persia, and the one great horn of the goat is the first king, and this is true, but the four horns are, "kingdoms that emerge from his nation." There is a glaring change here that must be noted and dealt with. God is directing us to look at the division of the Grecian kingdom after the great horn of the first king is broken. These four kingdoms arise from the nation of the Grecian king and we see this has happened from history. 

Ergo, from God's owns words the Two horns of the Goat are the kings of the Medes and Persians, the One horn of the Goat is the first king of Greece, However the Four horns are four kingdoms that arise out of the power of Grecian kingdom, as it is written, "22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power." More interesting is the nations that arose than who the kings were. The regions of control after the great Horn was broken are more to the point as the point of origin of the little horn is based on the regions that divided up the Grecian nation. Simply we have Egypt, Macedonia and Asia Minor as three of the regions. The biggest region was taken by Seleucid and ranged from the Mediterranean to India. The little horn therefore comes from one of these regions, not Rome, and has nothing to do with bloodlines, and everything to do with the division of an empire.

[Serving]

Diaste,

Well that's just an amazing way to interpret the vision. I know you like to have the horns be kings in every case and mountains be kingdoms in every case, but that just isn't the way it is.

 

Here is my evidence :

Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Daniel 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Now please provide yours.

You have to realize, many have to realize an all important concept, that you and I did not write these words. We didn't give the vision to the several prophets, apostles, kings or working people. None of us have the power to bring to pass the events the words speak about. So if we are that far out of the loop, what gives any of us the right to believe we have the correct interpretation of the vision and the words of the vision?

 The symbolism God already provided gives us that "right" to understand.

I have provided my scriptural evidence, now you please provide yours to say that horns are NOT kings.

For example, in Dan 8:16 a voice tells Gabriel to give Daniel the interpretation of the vision he saw in Dan 8:1-14. So right here, in this one verse, Dan 8:16, all other interpretations are out the window. A voice commands Gabriel to reveal the vision. Any voice that can command Gabriel has got to be very high up in the chain of command since Gabriel stands, STANDS mind you, in the presence of God. Luke 1 19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings. This being the case, standing before God, not prostrate, Gabriel must be endowed with great authority and therefore, God himself must be the voice that commands Gabriel to give the interpretation of the vision to Daniel.

Daniel 8 supports what I am saying, look :

 

 Daniel 8

1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.

2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

Now note the THEME .. HORNS :

4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

Focussed on the HORN

6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.

HORNS

7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

From that great HORN will come 4 notable horns is the message .. HORNS is the THEME.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

HORN once AGAIN ..

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

IT is that HORN .. still the SAME focus

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

That same HORN

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

That same HORN

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

So I am just repeating what God told Gabriel to say .. that the HORNS are KINGS.

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

That the ram also represents a king is no obstacle because God also likens men to BEASTS .. we are not talking about HEADS after all .. not only that, beasts & empires & kings are interchangeable because beast images REFLECT their KINGS ATTRIBUTES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BUT .. HORNS only ever mean KINGS.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

You need to read between the lines and stick with the THEME .. obviously 4 empires stand up out of that nation simply because 4 kings have divided it up AMONGST THEMSELVES .. THEY of course are KINGS and kings rule KINGDOMS.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

THOSE kings .. a kingdom doesn't rule a kingdom !!!!!!!!!! That's just silly .. KINGS rule kingdoms dude.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Him, his, he, horn = king = INDIVIDUAL who RULES over a KINGDOM.

It is obvious that this confirms what I have been saying all along .. that horns ONLY EVER mean KINGS.

To be CONTINUED .. "soon".

Edited September 7, 2015 by Serving

[Diaste]

Diaste,

Well that's just an amazing way to interpret the vision. I know you like to have the horns be kings in every case and mountains be kingdoms in every case, but that just isn't the way it is.

 

Here is my evidence :

Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Daniel 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Now please provide yours.

You have to realize, many have to realize an all important concept, that you and I did not write these words. We didn't give the vision to the several prophets, apostles, kings or working people. None of us have the power to bring to pass the events the words speak about. So if we are that far out of the loop, what gives any of us the right to believe we have the correct interpretation of the vision and the words of the vision?

 The symbolism God already provided gives us that "right" to understand.

I have provided my scriptural evidence, now you please provide yours to say that horns are NOT kings.

For example, in Dan 8:16 a voice tells Gabriel to give Daniel the interpretation of the vision he saw in Dan 8:1-14. So right here, in this one verse, Dan 8:16, all other interpretations are out the window. A voice commands Gabriel to reveal the vision. Any voice that can command Gabriel has got to be very high up in the chain of command since Gabriel stands, STANDS mind you, in the presence of God. Luke 1 19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings. This being the case, standing before God, not prostrate, Gabriel must be endowed with great authority and therefore, God himself must be the voice that commands Gabriel to give the interpretation of the vision to Daniel.

Daniel 8 supports what I am saying, look :

 

 Daniel 8

1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.

2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

Now note the THEME .. HORNS :

4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

Focussed on the HORN

6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.

HORNS

7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

From that great HORN will come 4 notable horns is the message .. HORNS is the THEME.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

HORN once AGAIN ..

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

IT is that HORN .. still the SAME focus

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

That same HORN

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

That same HORN

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

So I am just repeating what God told Gabriel to say .. that the HORNS are KINGS.

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

That the ram also represents a king is no obstacle because God also likens men to BEASTS .. we are not talking about HEADS after all .. not only that, beasts & empires & kings are interchangeable because beast images REFLECT their KINGS ATTRIBUTES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BUT .. HORNS only ever mean KINGS.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

You need to read between the lines and stick with the THEME .. obviously 4 empires stand up out of that nation simply because 4 kings have divided it up AMONGST THEMSELVES .. THEY of course are KINGS and kings rule KINGDOMS.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

THOSE kings .. a kingdom doesn't rule a kingdom !!!!!!!!!! That's just silly .. KINGS rule kingdoms dude.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Him, his, he, horn = king = INDIVIDUAL who RULES over a KINGDOM.

It is obvious that this confirms what I have been saying all along .. that horns ONLY EVER mean KINGS.

To be CONTINUED .. "soon".

Wow...good luck with all that.

[Serving]

Diaste,

Well that's just an amazing way to interpret the vision. I know you like to have the horns be kings in every case and mountains be kingdoms in every case, but that just isn't the way it is.

 

Here is my evidence :

Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Daniel 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Now please provide yours.

You have to realize, many have to realize an all important concept, that you and I did not write these words. We didn't give the vision to the several prophets, apostles, kings or working people. None of us have the power to bring to pass the events the words speak about. So if we are that far out of the loop, what gives any of us the right to believe we have the correct interpretation of the vision and the words of the vision?

 The symbolism God already provided gives us that "right" to understand.

I have provided my scriptural evidence, now you please provide yours to say that horns are NOT kings.

For example, in Dan 8:16 a voice tells Gabriel to give Daniel the interpretation of the vision he saw in Dan 8:1-14. So right here, in this one verse, Dan 8:16, all other interpretations are out the window. A voice commands Gabriel to reveal the vision. Any voice that can command Gabriel has got to be very high up in the chain of command since Gabriel stands, STANDS mind you, in the presence of God. Luke 1 19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings. This being the case, standing before God, not prostrate, Gabriel must be endowed with great authority and therefore, God himself must be the voice that commands Gabriel to give the interpretation of the vision to Daniel.

Daniel 8 supports what I am saying, look :

 

 Daniel 8

1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.

2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

Now note the THEME .. HORNS :

4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

Focussed on the HORN

6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.

HORNS

7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

From that great HORN will come 4 notable horns is the message .. HORNS is the THEME.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

HORN once AGAIN ..

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

IT is that HORN .. still the SAME focus

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

That same HORN

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

That same HORN

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

So I am just repeating what God told Gabriel to say .. that the HORNS are KINGS.

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

That the ram also represents a king is no obstacle because God also likens men to BEASTS .. we are not talking about HEADS after all .. not only that, beasts & empires & kings are interchangeable because beast images REFLECT their KINGS ATTRIBUTES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BUT .. HORNS only ever mean KINGS.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

You need to read between the lines and stick with the THEME .. obviously 4 empires stand up out of that nation simply because 4 kings have divided it up AMONGST THEMSELVES .. THEY of course are KINGS and kings rule KINGDOMS.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

THOSE kings .. a kingdom doesn't rule a kingdom !!!!!!!!!! That's just silly .. KINGS rule kingdoms dude.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Him, his, he, horn = king = INDIVIDUAL who RULES over a KINGDOM.

It is obvious that this confirms what I have been saying all along .. that horns ONLY EVER mean KINGS.

To be CONTINUED .. "soon".

 

Wow...good luck with all that.

Is that your counter evidence?

I know you can not refute what is clearly written, that horns are kings and that you are obviously mistaken.

I also know that I have not erred in my interpretation one little bit.

It is just a small adjustment you need to make on this horn subject .. clearly it is something you need to do for truth's sake.

Cheers.

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2015 by Serving

[Diaste]

Diaste,

Well that's just an amazing way to interpret the vision. I know you like to have the horns be kings in every case and mountains be kingdoms in every case, but that just isn't the way it is.

 

Here is my evidence :

Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Daniel 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Now please provide yours.

You have to realize, many have to realize an all important concept, that you and I did not write these words. We didn't give the vision to the several prophets, apostles, kings or working people. None of us have the power to bring to pass the events the words speak about. So if we are that far out of the loop, what gives any of us the right to believe we have the correct interpretation of the vision and the words of the vision?

 The symbolism God already provided gives us that "right" to understand.

I have provided my scriptural evidence, now you please provide yours to say that horns are NOT kings.

For example, in Dan 8:16 a voice tells Gabriel to give Daniel the interpretation of the vision he saw in Dan 8:1-14. So right here, in this one verse, Dan 8:16, all other interpretations are out the window. A voice commands Gabriel to reveal the vision. Any voice that can command Gabriel has got to be very high up in the chain of command since Gabriel stands, STANDS mind you, in the presence of God. Luke 1 19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings. This being the case, standing before God, not prostrate, Gabriel must be endowed with great authority and therefore, God himself must be the voice that commands Gabriel to give the interpretation of the vision to Daniel.

Daniel 8 supports what I am saying, look :

 

 Daniel 8

1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.

2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

Now note the THEME .. HORNS :

4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

Focussed on the HORN

6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.

HORNS

7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

From that great HORN will come 4 notable horns is the message .. HORNS is the THEME.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

HORN once AGAIN ..

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

IT is that HORN .. still the SAME focus

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

That same HORN

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

That same HORN

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

So I am just repeating what God told Gabriel to say .. that the HORNS are KINGS.

You can repeat what Gabriel says here, but not when what he says flies in the face of your private interpretation?

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

That the ram also represents a king is no obstacle because God also likens men to BEASTS .. we are not talking about HEADS after all .. not only that, beasts & empires & kings are interchangeable because beast images REFLECT their KINGS ATTRIBUTES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BUT .. HORNS only ever mean KINGS.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

You need to read between the lines and stick with the THEME .. obviously 4 empires stand up out of that nation simply because 4 kings have divided it up AMONGST THEMSELVES .. THEY of course are KINGS and kings rule KINGDOMS.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

THOSE kings .. a kingdom doesn't rule a kingdom !!!!!!!!!! That's just silly .. KINGS rule kingdoms dude.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Him, his, he, horn = king = INDIVIDUAL who RULES over a KINGDOM.

It is obvious that this confirms what I have been saying all along .. that horns ONLY EVER mean KINGS.

To be CONTINUED .. "soon".

 

Wow...good luck with all that.

Is that your counter evidence?

I know you can not refute what is clearly written, that horns are kings and that you are obviously mistaken.

I also know that I have not erred in my interpretation one little bit.

It is just a small adjustment you need to make on this horn subject .. clearly it is something you need to do for truth's sake.

Cheers.

 

 

 

Is what my counter evidence? I didn't offer any at this point. You didn't get that? This is one of the problems with discussing this. You seem not to understand what I write.

Here's the rub: It's not your exegesis that's the problem, although that is a trouble spot, the real problem is this statement,

"I also know that I have not erred in my interpretation one little bit."

This is the trouble. Well a few problems...

Error 1) You say this is your interpretation. Yes. I already knew that. Been trying to get you to see God's interpretation. What you are engaging in is private interpretation, an enormous error.

Error 2) You know? How do you know? By what standard are you judging this "you know" knowledge? Do you have a keeper of such a standard? Did you allow fact checking? Who did your fact checking?

Error 3) You have not erred? How did you establish that? Did you allow error reporting? Did you correct those errors? 

I'm not smart enough to have my own interpretation so I just read what God writes. Which leads me to the worst error I see you committing.

Error 4) Changing the meaning of scripture. I'll give an example from your post above. You have closed your eyes and ears to this before but maybe third times the charm.

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

That the ram also represents a king is no obstacle because God also likens men to BEASTS .. we are not talking about HEADS after all .. not only that, beasts & empires & kings are interchangeable because beast images REFLECT their KINGS ATTRIBUTES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BUT .. HORNS only ever mean KINGS.

Right here you say horns only ever mean kings. But if you read verse 22 it clearly says four 'kingdoms' arise out of the Grecian kingdom. Those four kingdoms are represented by the four horns that stood up after the great horn was broken. Not my words. Gabriel's. You are not smarter than Gabriel so you do not have the truth in this. A person that lacks understanding always thinks in black and white. Such a person cannot understand that situations and priorities change. This is your level of understanding, less than basic when it comes to prophecy. If the great messenger of God says that the ram's horns are kings, they are. When God tells Gabriel to say to Daniel the great horn between the goat's eyes is a king, then it is. When that same God tells the very same Gabriel to tell Daniel the prophet that the four horns represent kingdoms, THEN THEY REPRESENT KINGDOMS. If any one says anything different than this they lie and do not hear from God. 

It was important to establish the kings and nations in the Ram and the Goat. There is an important succession from the Medes and Persians to Greece and then the Four Kingdoms. If you read further in Daniel 11 you'll see the importance of the 4 Kingdoms. Many kings rule in the region of these kingdoms, over 2500 years of kings, that rose from the Grecian Empire, notably the KON and the KOS. But the real point of the succession of Kings from the Medes to the Four Kingdoms is that someday the little horn would rise from one of the kingdoms of the diadochi, in the same geographic area as one time ruled by the Medes, Persians and Greeks.

I understand that kings are associated with kingdoms. But it's not always the king of the kingdom that is important at the moment. The all knowing God made us look at the kings of two powerful kingdoms so we would understand just who the kings were and which kingdoms they ruled. The focus then changed to the kingdoms so we could see the succession of kingdoms, to know what geographic area the beast was coming from. Bloodlines are unimportant here. The diadochi were not heirs of Alexander so succession by bloodline is moot. It's all about the land mass and the history of the nations.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

You need to read between the lines and stick with the THEME .. obviously 4 empires stand up out of that nation simply because 4 kings have divided it up AMONGST THEMSELVES .. THEY of course are KINGS and kings rule KINGDOMS.

And right here you make God a liar. God says 'kingdoms' and Serving says 'kings'.  I'll stick with the interpretation God gave to Gabriel to give to Daniel.

You miss so much but there is a point here that you need to see.  These kingdom arise from the nation. They didn't come from Alexander. The idea here is to focus on land area. It was going to be around 2500 years before this prophecy came to pass and the kings would be long gone, but the kingdoms would remain.(Asia Minor Greece, and Egypt. The Seleucid Empire is the entire mideast).

One more thing. In Dan 8:20-21 the word for king is melek, or 'king'.

In Dan 8:22-23 the word is malkuwth, in this context, 'kingdom'.

In the former we see an individual king as a normal reading of Daniel 8:20-23 suggests. In the latter we see a normal reading tell us we should now look to kingdoms. This make much more sense than forcing the definition 'king' into v 22-23. Verse 23 would read, "In the latter time of their kings..." What? "in the latter time of the kings kings."?

NO. Verse 23 reads, "In the latter time of their kingdoms..", or, "In the latter time of the kings kingdoms.."