The Heavenly Places

[Marilyn C]

Hi Ezra,

 

I`m glad you brought up that term `the heavenlies.` Personally I do think that term has to do with the first & second heavens as Jesus talked about the `kingdom of the heavenlies,` the rule that would come over the earth, which I believe will be from the New Jerusalem.

 

This topic is actually a follow on of a conversation Retrobyter & I were having on the New Jerusalem thread. And I did wonder what label I would give these areas, `realms, areas, places...` so that we could discuss them.

 

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

Hi inchrist,

 

As usual you help me understand the Hebrew more. Thank you, friend.

 

Marilyn.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marilyn C.

 

Hi Retrobyter,

 

Glad you could come & share your thoughts. Quite interesting. I will wait for you to post the rest before going on.

 

Marilyn.

 

Thank you for your patience.

 

You brought out another good point about Hebrew. (I’ll bet you didn’t know you did that, did you?) There is another phrase in Hebrew that bears investigation: “(uw)shmeey hashaamaayim.” It was translated into the English KJV as “(and) the heaven of heavens.” I found this phrase six times in the Scriptures, with an additional “(bi)shmeey shmeey (qedem)” in Psalm 68:33 and an additional “hashaamayim shaamayim” in Psalm 115:16. These six times are Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; 2 Chronicles 2:6; 2 Chronicles 6:18; Nehemiah 9:6; and Psalm 148:4.

 

Literally, “shmeey” is the plural form in the construct state. The construct state is how possession and description between nouns are formed:

 

The First Hebrew Primer for Adults by Ethelyn Simon, Nanette Stahl, Linda Motzkin, and Joseph Anderson (EKS Publishing Company, Oakland, CA, © 1983) says this on page 65:

 

In Biblical Hebrew there is no word to express the English word of when it means either possession (“The house of Ruth”) or description (“A word of kindness”). However, in Hebrew, when two nouns are linked together to create a single idea, the first noun carries with it the meaning of of. This noun is in what is called the construct state. The construct state expresses the word of in both its possessive and descriptive functions. A word in the construct state should always be translated with of following it.

 

Eem Ya`aqov = (the) mother of Jacob

Bat ha’iysh = (the) daughter of the man

Iysh checed = (a) man of kindness

 

The examples above are literal translations of the construct state. When the construct state expresses possession, you can turn the phrase around after translating it literally and express the same idea in ordinary English.

 

Step 1: Eem Ya`aqov = (The) mother of Jacob

Step 2: (the) mother of Jacob = Jacob’s mother

Step 1: Bat ha’iysh = (the) daughter of the man

Step 2: (the) daughter of the man = the man’s daughter

 

 

(Each of the “Step 2” conversions are from an English rule and not related to Hebrew directly.)

 

The normal “plural” form (literally, a “dual” form) is “shaamaayim,” although the singular is never seen. However, when in a construct state, the word (still plural) changes form to “shmeey.” Thus, the phrase “shmeey hashaamayim” (with the definite article) literally translates to “(the) heavens of the heavens.” OR, if one would realize it to refer to the atmosphere, the “atmosphere of the atmosphere” or the “expanse of the expanse.” When gases so rarify as to be practically negligible, we call that “empty space.” When we are talking about the very rarified area outside of the concentration of our earth’s atmosphere, we call that area “outer space" or “space” for short. 

 

Now, “inchrist” and “Kan” are both correct. The word raaqiya` is related to the word raaqa` meaning “hammered or beaten or expanded thin,” but which came first, "the chicken or the egg?” Was it the “expanding” that was extended to the “hammering thin” or the “hammering thin” that was extended to the “expanding?”

 

Some naturally assume that those who lived in the original Creation - the Ancients - were therefore “primitive.” However, it is my opinion that the men and women who lived closer to the times of the original Creation were actually more intelligent and knowledgeable than we are today. Just because we have no records that survived the Flood to the present doesn’t mean that such records didn’t exist! There are traces of intelligence that extend throughout anthropology that suggests that these were not primitives who pulled themselves out of the mire of stupidity after eons of living like apes! That’s all an adapted philosophy from the “theory” of Evolution!

 

Part of that “the ancients were primitive” philosophy is the assumption that they saw the sky above as a solid dome of blue that looked black when the sun wasn’t in view and that it had holes in it that allowed the light of “heaven” to shine through! (Of course, “planets” or “wanderers” gave that assumption some problems, but ... hey ... let’s just not think too hard about it.) Here’s what God said,

 

Leviticus 26:14-20

14 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;

15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:

16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.

17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.

18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:

20 And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits.

KJV

 

Now, most think this simply means that God won’t hear their prayers, but why the “earth as brass?”  What color is iron when it is put in the fire and pulled out again? Isn’t it a dark blue with blackened areas? It’s hard and unyielding, certainly not a source of rain. What color is bronze? Isn’t it a brownish yellow with patches of green? But, the green is not life; it’s oxidation and corrosion! It’s also hard and one could not hope to put a plow to it!

 

So, the thought of the sky being as a “hammered out sheet of iron” is NOT the first impression one should get from looking at the blue sky above! That’s the impression one may get IF he or she has not been keeping God’s commandments!

 

Anyway, I believe that Strong’s has it backwards. Of course the two words are related; they are in the same reish-qof-`ayin family of words. However, the raaqiya` came first before the verb raaqa` was adapted from it. Straight from the text, raaqiya` was introduced in Genesis 1:6 and raaqa` is not introduced until Exodus 39:3.

 

Therefore, I believe that the “shmeey hashaamayim” refers to “space,” where indeed the stars (including “Sol” or the “Sun," our own “star”) and the planets and moons exist.

 

That’s it for the Hebrew.

 

Now, we turn to the Greek, particularly for the NT:

 

This concept of ...

 

"1st heaven = of clouds,

2nd heaven = of stars,

3rd heaven = God's abode"

 

... is something one will never find IN the Scriptures but was introduced to many in the last century in the center column notes of the old Scofield Reference Bible (KJV) on page 1238 at the bottom of the page.

 

Shimown Kefa (Simon Peter) said it better than Scofield. We just never hear about it in our preachers' sermons:

 

2 Peter 3:3-13

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water (the FLOOD), perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men (the FIRE).

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


KJV

 

By Peter's explanation, it would be...

 

1st heaven = the sky before the Flood,

2nd heaven = the present sky after the Flood and before the Fire, and

3rd heaven = the sky after the Fire.

 

The primary Greek word for "heaven" is "ouranos" (its plural is "ouranoi"); it also happens to be the same Greek word for "sky":

 

Matthew 16:1-4

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (ouranos).

2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky (ouranos) is red.

3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky (ouranos) is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (ouranos); but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.


KJV

 

(In how many English translations of the Bible is THAT information found?)

 

There are just a handful of words that were translated as “heaven,” heavens,” or “heavenly” in the NT Greek: “ouranios,” “ouranothen,” “ouranos,” “mesouraneema,” and “epouranios" (according to Strong’s).

 

NT:3770 ouranios (oo-ran'-ee-os); from NT:3772; celestial, i.e. belonging to or coming from the sky:

KJV - heavenly.

 

NT:3771 ouranothen (oo-ran-oth'-en); from NT:3772 and the enclitic of source; from the sky:

KJV - from heaven.

 

NT:3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'); perhaps from the same as NT:3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specifically, the Gospel (Christianity):

KJV - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.

 

NT:3735 oros (or'-os); probably from an obsolete oroo (to rise or "rear"; perhaps akin to NT:142; compare NT:3733); a mountain (as lifting itself above the plain):

KJV - hill, mount (-ain).

 

NT:3321 mesouraneema (mes-oo-ran'-ay-mah); from a presumed compound of NT:3319 and NT:3772; mid-sky:

KJV - midst of heaven.

 

NT:2032 epouranios (ep-oo-ran'-ee-os); from NT:1909 and NT:3772; above the sky:

KJV - celestial, (in) heaven (-ly), high.

 

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

 

These words hinge upon the one word “ouranos."

 

When I first started studying this about 37 or 38 years ago, I assumed that there would be three words, one for the “heaven of clouds,” one for the “heaven of stars,” and one for the “heaven as God’s abode.” That is NOT what I found! What I found was what was listed above! I even tried to fit them into the model! I figured, “Well, the one that says 'above the sky' might be the 'heaven as God’s abode,' and the one that says 'in the midst of heaven' could be the ‘heaven of stars.’ I tried various combinations and repeatedly stabbed at trying to get the Greek words to fit into the theological model. All attempts failed. I looked up EVERY VERSE that had ANYTHING to do with “heaven,” “heavens,” or “heavenly!” Nothing seemed to work ... until I discovered that “ouranos” was found in all FOUR instances in Matthew 16:1-4. Then, I noticed: Yeshua` (whom I still called “Jesus” at the time) was careful to use the EXACT SAME WORD as the Pharisees were using! He wasn’t denying them a “sign”; it just wasn’t the sign they expected! They were expecting a “sign of the TIMES”; they got “WEATHER WISDOM” instead, a TRUE “sign from the sky!”

 

Then, in reading Revelation 19:17, I discovered something limiting: "BIRDS FLY IN THE MIDST (MIDDLE) OF OURANOS!” In the other two occurrences of the word “mesouraneema,” “angels” could theoretically fly anywhere, but birds are limited to WHERE THEY CAN BREATHE! They’re like the “limiting reagent” in a chemical reaction! 

 

One can also see that “epouranios” refers to the place where the sun, moon, and stars exist in 1 Corinthians 15:39-41:

 

1 Corinthians 15:39-41

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial (epouranios) bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial (epouranios) is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

KJV

 

So, the area “above the ouranos” is where the sun, moon, and stars exist.

 

One must KNOW WHERE each word is used! With Bopeep’s usage of “Ephesians 1:3,20:2:6,3:10 and 6:12,” is she aware that these are all occurrences of “epouranios?!” These aren’t talking about some “spiritual realm”; they are talking about "above the atmosphere!” "Outer space!” This also makes sense if one realizes WHERE the New Jerusalem is currently being built! It is SAID to be an “epouranios” city in Hebrews 12:22:

 

Hebrews 12:22-24

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly (epouranioo = above-the-sky) Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven (en ouranois = in the-sky), and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

KJV

 

Furthermore, Yochanan (John) said (in Revelation 21:2) that he saw the New Jerusalem descending from God "OUT OF HEAVEN (EK TOU OURANOU)!” OUT OF THE SKY! Since there’s no gap between the atmosphere and the earth, then he was saying that the city LANDS!

 

Let’s stop there for now, but you should understand that “heavenly places” in Ephesians is the SAME WORD as “celestial” in 1 Corinthians 15 and as “heavenly” in other places! Without being able to study all this without knowing the Greek can lead to a LOT of confusion.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, San.

 

Is this really a topic for Eschatology discussion. I understand why someone should be interested in heavenly realms but so far I cannot see how do you relate it to eschatology or you simply post in another forum than the expected.

Also your topics look like a questionary with a Socratic didactic amplitude. So you act like you know and you want to lead people like students to a serfs in conclusion. I don't know where your didactic confidence comes from, do you know the scripture very well from higher education in religious studies, or you are a priest in real life (where?), or do you claim you know your answers from another source.

In my opinion a rose is a rather sensual signifier or a symbol of socialist appreciation. I really don't know how it is related to Christianity or other religions like Buddhism in this way. Plus it is a thorn flower. Regardless even of its thorns that have a bit painful role in Christianity it is a flower given as sensual love present something not quite compatible with eschatological topics and although it may seem to me a little inappropriate or funny I don't feel it really combines with any didactic or prescriptive tone.

 

Seriously?! Are you kidding? A discussion on “ouranos” and “shaamayim” is EXTREMELY related to eschatology! How are you going to know what to expect in prophecy if you don’t know where you’re going or how you’re going to get there?

[OneLight]

People, please understand that this is not a teaching site, but a discussion site.  Of late, these threads have become teaching threads and are in danger of being closed.  A normal discussion does not entail volumes of "facts" outlining, and adding to, what is being discussed.  We all know the difference between having a normal discussion and filling pages with outlines of knowledge.

Understand that we do realize that when we discuss, we do teach, but a little at a time.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, inchrist.

 

Howzit Retrobyter, 


I trust you well? I would like to join if you don't mind, what you present seems very compelling and impressive.


However I believe there is a flaw in your approach of raaqiya. 

 

 The word “firmament” (Hebrew: “raaqiya`”) means an “expanse.” Gases expand. The firmament or the expanse was named by God “shaamaayim,” which are the “skies.” The “shaamaayim” were also those things which separated the waters under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse. These water above the expanse-called-“shaamaayim” are also what came crashing down for 40 days and 40 nights during Noach’s time:

The primitive root for raaqiya is raqa` raw-kah'; to pound the earth (as a sign of passion); by analogy to expand (by hammering); by implication, to overlay (with thin sheets of metal):—beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch.


You have taken the full meaning of raaqiya to mean expand, but the full meaning goes well beyond that simplistic interpretation. The creation of the firmament is associated with the placement of some sort of structure.


While you provide evidence to prove that the firmament to be a water canopy to have once surrounded the earth for the Noah's account. I believe this view to be incorrect.


Genesis 1:14-16 verse says that the Sun, Moon, and Stars are "in" the firmament.


Therefore, applying the rules of grammar and logic, those waters that are "above the firmament" must be above the Sun, Moon and Stars which are in the firmament. That means these waters are above the visible cosmos. 

 


"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 


To get to the bottom of the story one must study the design of the tabernacle by Moses as it is laced with Genesis creation.

 

 

You are always most welcome to join in the conversation! I trust that I’ve answered your objection to the raaqiya`/raaqa` difference sufficiently; however, we really do not know which word is more basic than the other and which was derived from the other. Both are technically written reish-qof-`ayin; only the vowel pointing is different. One is a noun, the other is a verb. The first has the vowels qamets--chireq-with-yod--patach while the other has qamets--patach. It only SEEMS that the noun should come from the verb, particularly with the smaller set of vowels, but that’s not necessarily so.

 

Second, you made a technical error when you said, “you provide evidence to prove that the firmament to be a water canopy.” Actually, the firmament IS the sky or the atmosphere. That firmament merely separated the water vapor canopy from the seas below the firmament. True water vapor is invisible. It is only when condensed that it becomes clouds, ice, and rain. The waters above the firmament would be the water vapor canopy, and the waters below the firmament would be the seas, but the firmament itself would be the atmosphere.

 

Third, again, you have a technical error in how you perceive Gen. 1:14-16. The Hebrew never uses the words “shemesh” (“sun”) or “yaareeach” (“moon”)  in those verses. Mosheh (Moses) used the words “hamaa’owr hagaadol” (“greater light”) and “hamaa’owr haqaaTon” (“lesser light”), instead. I believe this is because God didn’t sit for 8-1/3 minutes to thousands of years for the light to get here from distant stars. He created the light FIRST; THEN He created the “sources” falsely-so-called. Thus, the sun, moon, and stars were NOT in the firmament; the LIGHT “from” these objects was created in the firmament, and then, almost as an afterthought, Mosheh said, “He made the stars also.” Just as God created a full grown man without a childhood, I believe He created the earth and all affecting it with THE APPEARANCE OF AGE.

 

Therefore, the waters above the firmament do NOT have to be “above the sun, moon, and stars,” and we can picture them much closer to home; that is, responsible for the deluge of water that could NOT have come from common rainstorms.

[Kan]

That's an interesting point about the light being set up before the celestial bodies.

 

It is not unlike God to do that, for instance we find reference to the earth being without form and void before it actually appears on the third day as God declared and then named.

It tells me that if God intends something it is as good as done.

[Kan]

The waters talked about in Genesis, do they always refer to H2O? See Psalms 148:4 the waters which are above the heavens - plural.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Retrobyter,

 

I have appreciated reading your discussion with inchrist. You both are so learned in Hebrew & Greek. I learnt much from both of you. I appreciate the many hours & years you have both put in to learning these languages & how they `work` & then to share that knowledge with us here. I know that you both will add so much to our discussion as we progress.

 

I also appreciated your understanding that this topic is in the right area. As you said to San, `Extremely related to eschatology! How are you going to know what to expect in prophecy if you don`t know where you`re going or how you`re going there?` I think many people view eschatology as just the tribulation & the millennium. I`m so glad you see a greater sphere that God is working in as well.

 

Now a couple of points in relation to what you have written. You seemed to give the impression that it was only rain, water from the skies at the time of the flood. But we see in scripture that `all the fountains of the great deep were broken up,...` (Gen. 7: 11) Do you see that too? 

 

Next - so we`ve got this word `heaven` (meaning plural) written about in God`s word, pointing to the atmosphere, & celestial areas. Now God`s throne & the angelic host were obviously elsewhere before those areas were created. What do you say concerning where they were?

 

Marilyn.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marilyn C, and happy Resurrection Day (Yowm Rish’own the Head-of-the-week Day)!

 

(In my opinion, EVERY Sunday is a Resurrection Day, not just “Easter!")

 

Hi Retrobyter,

 

I have appreciated reading your discussion with inchrist. You both are so learned in Hebrew & Greek. I learnt much from both of you. I appreciate the many hours & years you have both put in to learning these languages & how they `work` & then to share that knowledge with us here. I know that you both will add so much to our discussion as we progress.

 

I also appreciated your understanding that this topic is in the right area. As you said to San, `Extremely related to eschatology! How are you going to know what to expect in prophecy if you don`t know where you`re going or how you`re going there?` I think many people view eschatology as just the tribulation & the millennium. I`m so glad you see a greater sphere that God is working in as well.

 

Now a couple of points in relation to what you have written. You seemed to give the impression that it was only rain, water from the skies at the time of the flood. But we see in scripture that `all the fountains of the great deep were broken up,...` (Gen. 7: 11) Do you see that too? 

 

Next - so we`ve got this word `heaven` (meaning plural) written about in God`s word, pointing to the atmosphere, & celestial areas. Now God`s throne & the angelic host were obviously elsewhere before those areas were created. What do you say concerning where they were?

 

Marilyn.

 

Yes, I do recognize that the “fountains of the great deep” were also broken open and that water inundated the population from below as well as from above. That’s why I hesitate to say that 50% of the water was above the atmosphere, the "raaqiya`-named-shaamaayim.” It’s probably closer to 33%. Some of the waters were subterranean. “Seas” (Hebrew: Maayim) are THREE-dimensional, involving much that cannot be seen from the surface. Furthermore, we have world-wide evidence that huge chunks of the earth’s crust were ENTIRELY FLIPPED OVER during the Flood. It was FAR more than mere rain. Also, I believe that such seismic action occurred as to produce active volcanoes around the globe. Even one volcano can rival the force of an atomic bomb! As I said, I believe the Flood was a GLOBAL Killer. It is also my opinion that what kept the ark safe (in God’s providence) was the northern jet stream! That’s why I believe that the ark struck ground on the slopes of Mount Ararat, not that far from where the ark initially launched.

 

Where is God’s Throne? We are told several things:

 

Here’s the short list:

 

Shlomoh (Solomon) said,

 

2 Chronicles 6:16-20

16 Now therefore, O Lord God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit upon the throne of Israel; yet so that thy children take heed to their way to walk in my law, as thou hast walked before me.

17 Now then, O Lord God of Israel, let thy word be verified, which thou hast spoken unto thy servant David.

18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens (shmeey hashaamayim) cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!

19 Have respect therefore to the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O Lord my God, to hearken unto the cry and the prayer which thy servant prayeth before thee:

20 That thine eyes may be open upon this house day and night, upon the place whereof thou hast said that thou wouldest put thy name there; to hearken unto the prayer which thy servant prayeth toward this place.

KJV

 

Isaiah 66:1

1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is (hashaamayim, the skies are) my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

KJV

 

Also, think about verses like these:

 

Psalm 139:1-12

1 O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.

2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.

4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.

5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven (shaamayim, the skies), thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

KJV

 

Where can one go where God is NOT present?! NOWHERE! So, pinpoint for me where this “heaven” is and where His throne is!

 

There’s no localized place called “Heaven.” There’s no dimension called “Heaven.” The verses that talk about “heaven”; that is; “shaamaayim” or “ouranoi” or "the skies,” are verses that say or imply that God cannot be confined to ANY place!

 

Psalm 45:6-7

6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

KJV

 

Hebrews 1:6-12

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

KJV

 

Psalm 102:24-28

24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.

25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:

27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.

28 The children of thy servants shall continue, and their seed shall be established before thee.

KJV

 

Therefore, according to the author of Hebrews, both of these psalms are Messianic! (These quotes, btw, are the best way to equate the Hebrew with the Greek!)

 

I believe other such passages are also about the Son of God through whom the Father will reign until such time as the last enemy is finally subdued.

 

Then, at that time, Yeshua` shall hand over the Kingdom to His Father so that God is the ultimate Ruler of this earth.

 

1 Corinthians 15:20-28

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he (Yeshua`) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

KJV

 

This is the purpose of the Millennium. It is the beginning 1000 years of the Kingdom and the last 1000 years of this second earth and its sky. The Millennium is not a “time of peace,” as some have claimed, but will be a time of subjugating all the Messiah’s enemies until the only thing left to subdue is death itself. LITERALLY! Such a literal subjugation of death did NOT occur at the cross or at the Resurrection of the Messiah. It doesn’t happen for a person when one gets “saved,” or rather, is justified by God. The simple proof of that is that we still die individually today! Instead, we get the “EARNEST" (the down payment) of eternal life through the gift of God’s SPIRIT!

Revelation 22:1-5

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

KJV

 

The verses that talk about His throne are either verses that are speaking prophetically about Yeshua`s throne in His Kingdom OR they are talking about a dais, that is, a royal box found within the New Jerusalem.

 

The New Jerusalem is a literal, three-dimensional, city that not only SHALL exist and land upon the New Earth in the future, but is a real, literal, place that exists in space RIGHT NOW where it is currently being built, although by now, the finishing touches are being applied. Furthermore, it is probably already on its way here.

 

The New Jerusalem is said to be God’s Tabernacle or Tent:

 

Revelation 21:2-3

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (ouranos, the sky), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

KJV

 

This is the same kind of “tabernacle” or “tent” that Avraham had:

 

Hebrews 11:8-10

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

KJV

 

Avraham was an `Ibriy (a Hebrew); that is, he was a WANDERER, a NOMAD! He was a nomad following his herds as they grazed across the country, and his herds were not small! He was a Bedouin and as such, his tent WAS his house!

 

So, when Yeshua` talked about His "Father’s house,” one can guess where HE was going:

 

John 14:1-3

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions (rooms): if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

KJV

 

I believe that Yeshua` was saying that He would be preparing dwellings, whether “rooms” or “mansions” or “mansion-sized rooms,” within the New Jerusalem for each one of His disciples, including US!

 

Have a GREAT day!