thoughts on creationism

[sheya joie]

To me, the crux of the matter is that there was no death until after the Fall. Sin brought death into the world, so how could there have been eons of creatures dying before humans appeared on the scene if the sin of the humans brought about death?

[Ezra]

Alright, I suppose my point here is not just that there was something special here, insofar as having 'days' delineated before the appearance of an earth/sun system, but that there is a conceptual difficult specifically with defining a morning and evening before there is an earth/sun system. The conceptual difficulty is one that seems very fundamental, possibly represents a metaphysical impossibility as it relates to concepts and definitions, and therefore doesn't just allow- but demands- a different understanding.

Alpha,

Don't make things more complicated than they should be.  Your "metaphysical impossiblity" has been declared a fact within the Ten Commandments.  Please note carefully (Exod 20:8-11):

⁸ Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

⁹ Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

¹⁰ But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

¹¹ For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

 

I would urge you to give careful consideration to verse 11 and believe it.  The context makes it very clear that God is speaking about literal 24 hour days.  And please keep in mind that these Ten Commandments were written supernaturally -- "with the finger of God" -- on tablets of stone.  That for each day of creation, God defines it with "evening and morning" should be sufficient to set your "conceptual difficulties" to rest. God does not play word games.

[Ezra]

To me, the crux of the matter is that there was no death until after the Fall. Sin brought death into the world, so how could there have been eons of creatures dying before humans appeared on the scene if the sin of the humans brought about death?

While this thread is not related to death before the Fall, it is related to the death of all speculative nonsense.

[alphaparticle]

To me, the crux of the matter is that there was no death until after the Fall. Sin brought death into the world, so how could there have been eons of creatures dying before humans appeared on the scene if the sin of the humans brought about death?

Is it? Did Adam and Eve the same day that they partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? It seems to me considering that question relives some of the subtleties involved earlier.

[alphaparticle]

 

Alright, I suppose my point here is not just that there was something special here, insofar as having 'days' delineated before the appearance of an earth/sun system, but that there is a conceptual difficult specifically with defining a morning and evening before there is an earth/sun system. The conceptual difficulty is one that seems very fundamental, possibly represents a metaphysical impossibility as it relates to concepts and definitions, and therefore doesn't just allow- but demands- a different understanding.

Alpha,

Don't make things more complicated than they should be.  Your "metaphysical impossiblity" has been declared a fact within the Ten Commandments.  Please note carefully (Exod 20:8-11):

⁸ Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

⁹ Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

¹⁰ But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

¹¹ For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

 

I would urge you to give careful consideration to verse 11 and believe it.  The context makes it very clear that God is speaking about literal 24 hour days.  And please keep in mind that these Ten Commandments were written supernaturally -- "with the finger of God" -- on tablets of stone.  That for each day of creation, God defines it with "evening and morning" should be sufficient to set your "conceptual difficulties" to rest. God does not play word games.

 

Sure, they were labeled days, but when you read the *context* of what those days are I cannot say it is obvious these were 24 hr periods of time relative to the earth.

[Steve_S]

Exo 20:9  Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 

Exo 20:10  but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 

Exo 20:11  For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. 

 

 

Your line of reasoning may carry slightly more weight if we didn't have days referenced here specifically in comparison to a 7 day week. Being as how we do not, it does not. 

[alphaparticle]

 

Exo 20:9  Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 

Exo 20:10  but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 

Exo 20:11  For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. 

 

 

Your line of reasoning may carry slightly more weight if we didn't have days referenced here specifically in comparison to a 7 day week. Being as how we do not, it does not. 

 

How about a pattern, insofar as, God clearly divided up His creative acts in 6 periods of time, be they 24 hr periods or something else. Something else would still work to establish a pattern of 6 periods with a 7th of rest, and still serve the purpose.

[dprprb]

I totally agree with the basis of your thinking and find time to be the critical element to reconciling many things. Keep looking at what is being said about time as you read Scripture using everything we know to frame the issue--relativity, world lines, geological time, the state of certain things and places thru time, quantum states, viewing time as separate slices or pages, the function of d/dx. In principle everything stated in the Word is accountable and nonmagical or physics defying to the degree suggested elsewhere. After that we can work on the word random.....but only if you keep God and yourself in the proper relation. Some reconciliations are in Him and it is up to Him to reveal them, but if my memory of verse serves All will be revealed.

[Steve_S]

 

 

Exo 20:9  Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 

Exo 20:10  but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 

Exo 20:11  For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. 

 

 

Your line of reasoning may carry slightly more weight if we didn't have days referenced here specifically in comparison to a 7 day week. Being as how we do not, it does not. 

 

How about a pattern, insofar as, God clearly divided up His creative acts in 6 periods of time, be they 24 hr periods or something else. Something else would still work to establish a pattern of 6 periods with a 7th of rest, and still serve the purpose.

 

 

I would consider this as more feasible had the verse said "For in six periods (epocs, lengths of time, seasons, etc.) the LORD made the heavens and the earth,.... However, that is not how this is worded. There is a direct correlation made between days and days here, i.e. you have a direct reference independent of Genesis also specifically delineating these as days and, not only that, to boot, you have it being *directly* compared to 7 literal 24 hour periods. 

[alphaparticle]

 

 

 

Exo 20:9  Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 

Exo 20:10  but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 

Exo 20:11  For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. 

 

 

Your line of reasoning may carry slightly more weight if we didn't have days referenced here specifically in comparison to a 7 day week. Being as how we do not, it does not. 

 

How about a pattern, insofar as, God clearly divided up His creative acts in 6 periods of time, be they 24 hr periods or something else. Something else would still work to establish a pattern of 6 periods with a 7th of rest, and still serve the purpose.

 

 

I would consider this as more feasible had the verse said "For in six periods (epocs, lengths of time, seasons, etc.) the LORD made the heavens and the earth,.... However, that is not how this is worded. There is a direct correlation made between days and days here, i.e. you have a direct reference independent of Genesis also specifically delineating these as days and, not only that, to boot, you have it being *directly* compared to 7 literal 24 hour periods. 

 

It works perfectly well because the word day was *already* used in Genesis 1, so it makes perfect sense to use the same language. But then the argument does reduce again to understanding what Genesis 1 intended with the term, which goes back to #1 in my OP