Faith and Firearms: Should Christians Own Guns?

[Guest shiloh357]

Gary,

 

You still have not shown that self-defense from a biblical point of view is wrong.   The Bible does not address self-defense.  So there is no way for anyone to argue that someone defending their family, even using violent means to do so, is wrong.   In fact, it could be argued that if God gives a man a family, it is a foregone conclusion that He expects that man to live up to the role of a father and provide and protect that family.

 

Can you provide one biblical doctrine that is violated if a man violently defends in his family???    I will make it easy for you;  you can't.    You can also not find ONE NT verse that says spousal abuse is  sin, but I bet you wont' be on the boards promoting spousal abuse.  

 

So it is not necessary to quote chapter and verse in order to defend the right  and the godliness of  a man to violently defend his family. 

[gdemoss]

Pat, we agree on Mat 24. I was giving Sam credit for trying to use NT scripture Instead of opinion.

Shiloh, I haven't said it is wrong. I have only asked those who take a position to show their position from scripture. I still am undecided. I have more work to cone to a real conclusion. Thanks for the input throughout the thread.

[The_Patriot21]

Pat, we agree on Mat 24. I was giving Sam credit for trying to use NT scripture Instead of opinion.

Shiloh, I haven't said it is wrong. I have only asked those who take a position to show their position from scripture. I still am undecided. I have more work to cone to a real conclusion. Thanks for the input throughout the thread.

I apologize then, I misread your statement and thought you were trying to apply that for the reason not to use self defense.

[Bible2]

the_patriot2015 said in post 61:

 

Ww2 was the very definition of a just war.

 

Note that there are Christians (such as in the Christian Identity movement) who claim that it was Hitler who was waging a "just war" in World War II.

 

So it would be better for Christians to avoid the whole "just war" idea, and instead embrace the pacifism which was taught by Jesus:

 

"I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also" (Matthew 5:39).

 

"Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword" (Matthew 26:52).

 

"For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ" (2 Corinthians 10:4-5).

 

By abandoning Biblical pacifism, Christians leave themselves open to being deceived into fighting a so-called "just war" that is in fact Satanic. For example, many Christians could be deceived into joining the Antichrist's future (and successful) war against Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10). For he could convince them that his is truly a "just war", one even waged in the name of "Jesus". For during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), even though the world will consciously and openly worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), this won't require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will say that Jesus is evil, or will turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, he isn't the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing that he is the Christ and the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the gospel by which people become saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

 

So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this wouldn't require that the Antichrist deny Jesus' 2nd coming. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of Jesus' 2nd coming, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says that the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. For the False Prophet could claim that he is Jesus returned. And he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). This is one reason why it is important to know when and how the real Jesus' 2nd coming will happen (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

 

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

 

The person whom the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who commanded people to commit genocide and kill babies (1 Samuel 15:3), whereas Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)". The truth is that Jesus confirmed that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31), and that the Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). Jesus died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (Isaiah 53; 1 Peter 2:24). And he rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (e.g. Psalms 16:10, Acts 2:31). Jesus died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of Satan (Hebrews 2:14), which YHWH had foretold from even the first book of the Old Testament (Genesis 3:15).

 

Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH, and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). Satan may be worshipped not as "Satan", which most everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could falsely say that it is YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind.

 

Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because they will bring the unsaved world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) instead (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), they could falsely say that (the non-mortal flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5).

 

But the truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12) and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18). Jesus Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus Christ identified himself with only the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28). And in John 10:34, Jesus Christ (John 20:31) was quoting YHWH in Psalms 82:6-7, which shows that even though humans have knowledge of good and evil as gods do (Genesis 3:22), they will still die like humans (Psalms 82:7), contradicting the serpent's lie (Genesis 3:4). Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say that Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (cf. John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24), returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine "Son" of Lucifer, who must be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as YHWH God (the Son) along with YHWH God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).

 

Near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before the real Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:20 to 20:3).

[Bible2]

shiloh357 said in post 72:

 

Can you provide one biblical doctrine that is violated if a man violently defends in his family???

 

Loving even one's enemies (Matthew 5:44), which means doing them no harm (Romans 13:10a, Matthew 7:12).

 

shiloh357 said in post 72:

 

You can also not find ONE NT verse that says spousal abuse is sin . . .

 

That would fall under Ephesians 5:25,28,29,33a.

[ayin jade]

 

 

Note that there are Christians (such as in the Christian Identity movement) who claim that it was Hitler who was waging a "just war" in World War II.

 

 

By their nature that group does not embody Christianity in that they harbor hate towards other races.

[Guest shiloh357]

Bible2,

 

Christian Identity movement is a cult.   They are not Christians.

 

Secondly   "loving one's enemies"  is a command to Christians AND it was given in the context of interpersonal relationships.   That was not given to define national foreign relations.   Paul was not a pacifist.  In fact, Paul recognized the role of government given by God  was to bear the sword against injustice in Romans 13.   If pacifism were biblical, why did God give Israel victory in war??    Why isn't God a pacifist??    We are called to imitate Him, yet He is  a mighty man of war.

 

As for spousal abuse...   My point gdemoss was that he was looking for specific verse that allows us to use violent means in self defense.   I was explaining to him that the Bible does not give a specific verse addressing spousal abuse and thus we have to extrapolate from general morality of Scripture that is in Scripture that spousal abuse is wrong.   The same goes for self defense.

 

Part of loving your wife is providing for her protection.   But according to you self-defense or the defense of one's family violates the commandment to love our enemies.    So, if your wife is being brought to harm, do you love your wife by protecting her or do you love your enemy by refusing to lift a finger to protect her?  

 

 

I raise that question because "loving your enemy"  biblically has nothing to do with how to respond to a violent offender who means to kill you or your family.   Paul was talking about how to respond to thing like personal squabbles with other people, at work, home, at church, etc.    Paul was talking about how to respond to those who mock you for your faith in Jesus, who slander us and put us down for being believers.  

 

People like you take the concept of love and pervert it to the point that evil cannot be stopped.   For the ungodly pacifist,  there is to be no defense against ISIS who is slaughtering people right and left and will continue unabated if no one were to lift  a finger.    For the pacifist, we are to "love"  ISIS and that means letting them just continue to slaughter and maim and destroy.    That is a perversion of love that is not found in the Bible.    By your ungodly, unchristian standard,  evil should win and everyone should just live under oppression.

[OldSchool2]

the_patriot2015 said in post 61:

 

Ww2 was the very definition of a just war.

 

Note that there are Christians (such as in the Christian Identity movement) who claim that it was Hitler who was waging a "just war" in World War II.

 

So it would be better for Christians to avoid the whole "just war" idea....

It was St. Augustine -- bishop of Hippo, North Africa, and one of only four doctors of the church -- who developed "the whole just war idea". His "Confessions" and "City of God" had a profound influence on Christian theology.

However, the Christian Identity Movement is "Christian" in name only, or do you seriously believe that because the KKK holds rallies where they burn crosses that White supremacist groups are also Christian?

[The_Patriot21]

 

the_patriot2015 said in post 61: Ww2 was the very definition of a just war.

 Note that there are Christians (such as in the Christian Identity movement) who claim that it was Hitler who was waging a "just war" in World War II. So it would be better for Christians to avoid the whole "just war" idea, and instead embrace the pacifism which was taught by Jesus: "I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also" (Matthew 5:39). "Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword" (Matthew 26:52). "For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ" (2 Corinthians 10:4-5). By abandoning Biblical pacifism, Christians leave themselves open to being deceived into fighting a so-called "just war" that is in fact Satanic. For example, many Christians could be deceived into joining the Antichrist's future (and successful) war against Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10). For he could convince them that his is truly a "just war", one even waged in the name of "Jesus". For during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), even though the world will consciously and openly worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), this won't require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will say that Jesus is evil, or will turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, he isn't the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing that he is the Christ and the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the gospel by which people become saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this wouldn't require that the Antichrist deny Jesus' 2nd coming. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of Jesus' 2nd coming, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says that the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. For the False Prophet could claim that he is Jesus returned. And he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). This is one reason why it is important to know when and how the real Jesus' 2nd coming will happen (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21). Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39). The person whom the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who commanded people to commit genocide and kill babies (1 Samuel 15:3), whereas Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)". The truth is that Jesus confirmed that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31), and that the Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). Jesus died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (Isaiah 53; 1 Peter 2:24). And he rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (e.g. Psalms 16:10, Acts 2:31). Jesus died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of Satan (Hebrews 2:14), which YHWH had foretold from even the first book of the Old Testament (Genesis 3:15). Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH, and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). Satan may be worshipped not as "Satan", which most everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could falsely say that it is YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind. Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because they will bring the unsaved world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) instead (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), they could falsely say that (the non-mortal flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5). But the truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12) and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18). Jesus Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus Christ identified himself with only the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28). And in John 10:34, Jesus Christ (John 20:31) was quoting YHWH in Psalms 82:6-7, which shows that even though humans have knowledge of good and evil as gods do (Genesis 3:22), they will still die like humans (Psalms 82:7), contradicting the serpent's lie (Genesis 3:4). Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say that Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (cf. John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24), returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine "Son" of Lucifer, who must be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as YHWH God (the Son) along with YHWH God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8). Near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before the real Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:20 to 20:3).

Your entire argument is based upon something that is already been proven false-and that is our feelings. You say there are Christians that say Hitler was fighting a just war, so there fore we must be just as wrong. Well, first I would submit those arnt Christians-its one thing to be tricked but to actively believe that Hitler was in the right, well, I would say they are wolves in sheep's clothing. So what they believe is irrelevant, as is your entire post.

When you base your beliefs on the Bible you know your right. The Bible said what Hitler did was wrong, 100% evil. It doesn't matter what you believe. It doesn't matter what Hitlers followers believe. It doesn't matter what you believe. In the end it doesn't matter what I believe. What matters is what the Bible says, the Bible says 2 things, one that what Hitler did was WRONG and secondly, that God WILL protect His chosen people. And since Hitler was on a mission to kill off the Jews, he had to be stopped.

So no matter how you swing it, WW2 was the very definition of a just war. It was the only way to stop Hitler and save Gods chosen people. The beliefs of a bunch of wolves have zero bearing on the matter.

[1to3]

Many christian Germans where tortured and forced into the war.

Children in school were obligated to say hail Hitler in the commencement of their day.

My uncle got severely beaten, because my grandfather refused to sign a paper that would have enlisted my uncle into Hitlers youth.

My uncle escaped to Sweden, my grandfather already to old for the army was forced into the war, my grandmother was forced to peel potatoes for the soldiers, while my mother, her daughter (my mother) and her younger brother were starving, and malnourished. My mother would say how in order to get some food, they (her and some other children) once had climbed over some soldiers fence and stole some bread and salami.

 Soldier would just storm into your house and do whatever..

My mother was saved from being raped, because one time some soldiers stormed  into their house looking...luckily she was so malnourished and had boils on her arms and so was passed up from being raped.

My mother was born in east Prussia, they lost their home/farm to the Russians and were forced  to walk over the Gdansk river in winter, where many people died.

 

Even though my mother survived she was greatly affected by the war,

( in a sick sense, she made me in a way hostage to her pain.)

her younger brother seemed to have been the most affected by the war.

the older brother who escaped to Sweden seems to have been the strongest, but everyone got affected.

 

I had family -Christan family- who lived through it.

 

the_patriot2015

So you can't say German Christians were fighting British Christians-thats 99% not true.

 

My christian grandfather was already to old for the second world war, was forced back into the army and was given a rank that he was not.

Even so my grandfather did not fire his firearm and when he did he would fire in the air and always carried a bible with him and when faced with the opposition- an English soldier-, my grandfather lifted up his bible and both met in the middle embraced and went their separate ways.

The Holy Spirit of God was with my grandfather and protected him.

My grandfathers faith was very strong.Praise God.

 

 

(Edit: I  did not see how writing:  they don' t know what the ...  they are saying"  being viewed as a profanity, more so than an expression of exasperation.

In exasperation what can be said to people who don't know the true facts of what happened.

when someone is saying things away from what truly happened , that is certainly not coming from heaven.)

 

Mark 3:5 So when He has looked around at them with anger, being grieved by the hardness of their hearts...

Edited May 27, 2015 by 1to3
Removed Profanity.