James 2 - What did James Mean?

[RustyAngeL]

As was said, there is no contradiction in the Bible.  It by faith we enter into walk with Jesus and we are justified by that  very same faith.  Jesus said,"I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but  by Me."  Both Paul and Mark were save by the same faith in Christ that saved us. It's that simple. You need to read all this over again.  

[Guest Thallasa]

 Thankyou for your clarity  ,and I would entirely agree with your analysis . Martin Luther was wrong .

[Guest Thallasa]

Yes Quick ,but the problems arise when people interpret differently according to their level of knowledge  in context ,

 

 their understanding according to their maturity both intellectually and spiritually,and that is where the misunderstandings have

 

arisen . I think God loves when we spend time to genuinely try to know what His word really means ,and He knows when we are

 

are doing it with love and a desire to know Him ,or when it is for reasons of ego ,to show how clever we are . That sometimes one

 

makes a genuine mistake is pars for the course ,but we must be ready to own up when we have erred ,and do it publicly .That is 

 

 where Luher  and others like him have led astray so many souls ,and will no doubt, pay the conséquences .

[Your closest friendnt]

Abrahams was justified before God, When he beleive God about a promise God made to him.

At this point and time Abraham was a righteous man. Still separated the walls still up. He complain why I can not be with you, you only come and visit me.

Was he a righteous man before he was justified?

Will he be righteous as long as he lives?

If Abraham stop beleiving that God is able to do what he promise, or buy land and or settle some place and mix with some local people.....or go back to the place he came from?

If Anraham did not follow God when he ask him to do the sircumsition or change the guidelines of...

Whould he still remain righteous?

We may see that God had a plan for Abraham as long as he remain righteous. Abraham did not know the timing and the events and how, the did not the bleuprint. God started a family with Abraham, he took a people for him self.

Poiting to the seed to come. We see how the way begins for the coming of Christ.

We have two people, the first one is the earthy and the later is the heavenly.

Two families the earthy and the heavenly. the spiritual the one with the life- born from above-

When you see the sign of Moses and the snake in the desert on the wood up highb , the snake beeing the unfallen son of God, then the people will be heal from the bite of the serpents, only by looking. Then the heavenly children will apear. The new family of God includes the whole World. I have not come to judge the world but to save.

Two blessings, the earthly one God giving rightsneounesh by faith and obedience to specific commandments .(later through the Law and the sacrifices) rightsneounesh but not the life of God and not the heavenly promise inheritance (land) . Rules and rituals that give rightsneoush Which can not Bring down the walls.(plural), open doors (plural).

And the heavenly one.. Jesus the Christ, the second Adam, the son of God, who was righteous from the beginning till the end. Who was obedient to God in everything,

How could he loose his rightsneounesh? And then what?

Jesus did the works all the way to the cross and beyong ( what happen beyong) before he comes back to earth? Where did he go? And to whoms and why and with what gifts?

Jesus beeing righteous and without loosing his rightsneounesh he gives us his rightsneounesh.

How can he gives his rightsneounesh away and he can still have one for him self?

That's an ultimate, paramount question.

Does he have two rightsneounesh?

Jesus said if someone has to coats and he gives one to the one whose does not have .........(I don't remember it correctly).

Yes he does have one he is born with, the one he brought with him and the one he earned with his obedience all the way to the cross.

We have his rightsneounesh and he still has he own, and we have his life free gifts of faith. As he is so we are, thats his glory, his honor. And we are cloth with his glory here on earth also.

You can have your own glory with your works of charity, a different glory for suffering for the Gospel like many in the past and always.....

There are different kinds of redemption for the earthly situations but for the heavenly his blood.

There are many heresies from sensered people who love Jesus and their willing to died for him.

They have the trouth when say Jesus died for us, but not in some other things. They are still under the blood, under Grace.

Even if they try to earn the imputed gifts.no glory for that. But that helps them to stay away from sin even imaginable sins, so they can severly ruthlessly judge others and become very proud......

But we want to have only the love of God,

You are a bless ministry, thanks God for that

[Floatingaxe]

In case you haven't noticed bcbsr, we are not receiving your ungodly, unChristian false teaching.  

 

But he cares not about that. He will persist and remain uncorrectable. I've been countering him at another site lately with the exact same error he is trying to push on people. This will not go without God dealing heavily with him. Being resistant to correction by persisting in teaching error, and fomenting doubt reveals a very dangerous spiritual condition.

[FresnoJoe]

Luke was not an apostle, Mark was not an apostle, Jude was not an apostle.   Should their writings be rejected?

 

Luke and Mark weren't composing doctrine. They were recording history. Doesn't take an apostle to do that. Jude, the brother of James has no business in the Bible. And twice he quotes as authoritative books which are not reckoned scripture, namely the book of Enoch and the Assumption of Moses. Furthermore he's simply copying 2 Peter 2 point for point. 

 

?

 

Dear One

 

"Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven. Luke 10:20 (NASB)

 

Luke And Mark

 

Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” Mark 14:38 (ESV)

 

Are The Oracles Of God

 

For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. Luke 1:15-16

 

And Beloved Jude (I Believe) Received Enoch's Preaching

 

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. Jude 1:14-16

 

Directly From The All Mighty, The Most Powerful And The Truth Telling, The Holy Ghost

 

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NIV)

 

And You And I Will Be Judged By

 

Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. Mark 8:38

 

These Very Same Words

 

For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. Luke 9:36

 

Unless We Are Covered By The Blood Of Christ

 

"This is my blood of the covenant,  which is poured out for many," he said to them. Mark 14:23

 

~

 

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

 

But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Mark 14:61-62

 

Be Very Blessed

 

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 1:24-25

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

 

~

 

PS: Jude (Judas) Is Believed To Be The Half-Brother Of Jesus (As Is James) And Jude Was Accepted As Holy Scripture By The Early Church Even To It's Inclusion In The Muratorian Cannon (c. A.D. 170)

 

Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? Matthew 13:55

[bcbsr]

 

 

And Beloved Jude (I Believe) Received Enoch's Preaching

 

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. Jude 1:14-16

 

 

Jude quoted the book of Enoch as if it were scripture, and yet the book of Enoch is not recognized as scripture.  So what does that say of Jude?

 

Jude is simply a rewriting of 2Peter chapter 2, but using quotes from extra-scriptural sources as if they were scripture, which calls Jude into question. Furthermore Jude was not an apostle, and his being the brother of Jesus holds no  weight. For even Jesus said, "who is my brother,  mother, sister", and this when his family (like Jude and James, and even  Mary) came to take him away saying he was out of his  mind (Mark 3:21)

[FresnoJoe]

Dear One

 

"Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven. Luke 10:20 (NASB)

 

Luke And Mark

 

Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” Mark 14:38 (ESV)

 

Are The Oracles Of God

 

For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. Luke 1:15-16

 

And Beloved Jude (I Believe) Received Enoch's Preaching

 

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. Jude 1:14-16

 

Directly From The All Mighty, The Most Powerful And The Truth Telling, The Holy Ghost

 

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NIV)

 

And You And I Will Be Judged By

 

Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. Mark 8:38

 

These Very Same Words

 

For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. Luke 9:36

 

Unless We Are Covered By The Blood Of Christ

 

"This is my blood of the covenant,  which is poured out for many," he said to them. Mark 14:23

 

~

 

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

 

But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Mark 14:61-62

 

Be Very Blessed

 

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 1:24-25

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

 

~

 

PS: Jude (Judas) Is Believed To Be The Half-Brother Of Jesus (As Is James) And Jude Was Accepted As Holy Scripture By The Early Church Even To It's Inclusion In The Muratorian Cannon (c. A.D. 170)

 

Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? Matthew 13:55

 

Jude quoted the book of Enoch as if it were scripture

 

~

 

And Beloved, Therein Lies The Difference Between A Bible Believer

 

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NIV)

 

And A Mocker

 

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Genesis 3:1(a-c)

 

~

 

Be Blessed

 

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

 

Beloved

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

Love, Joe

[thereselittleflower]

 

 

And Beloved Jude (I Believe) Received Enoch's Preaching

 

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. Jude 1:14-16

 

 

Jude quoted the book of Enoch as if it were scripture, and yet the book of Enoch is not recognized as scripture.  So what does that say of Jude?

 

Jude is simply a rewriting of 2Peter chapter 2, but using quotes from extra-scriptural sources as if they were scripture, which calls Jude into question. Furthermore Jude was not an apostle, and his being the brother of Jesus holds no  weight. For even Jesus said, "who is my brother,  mother, sister", and this when his family (like Jude and James, and even  Mary) came to take him away saying he was out of his  mind (Mark 3:21)

 

 

You might be interested to know that the book of Enoch came very close to being included in the canon of scripture in the Early Church.   Also, many people are not aware of this, but the "canon" of scripture was one of many "canons" that were decided upon by councils in the Early Church.  A "canon" simply means a decision.    And the "canon" of scripture was what was decided could be read during the Mass of the Early Church.   Books, such as The Book of Enoch, and The Didache, were used in personal devotion and instruction and considered inspired as well.

Edited July 2, 2015 by thereselittleflower

[Butch5]

Martin Luther made the keen observation that when reading what James ACTUALLY wrote, it was clear that he didn't agree with Paul concerning the requirements for salvation. Therefore Martin Luther writes, "I do not regard it as the writing of an apostle, and my reasons follow. In the first place it is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works 2:24). It says that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac (2:20); Though in Romans 4:22-22 St. Paul teaches to the contrary that Abraham was justified apart from works, by his faith alone, before he had offered his son, and proves it by Moses in Genesis 15:6. Although it would be possible to "save" the epistle by a gloss giving a correct explanation of justification here ascribed to works, it is impossible to deny that it does refer to Moses' words in Genesis 15 (which speaks not of Abraham's works but of his faith, just as Paul makes plain in Romans 4) to Abraham's works. This fault proves that this epistle is not the work of any apostle."

The "gloss" readings he's referring to are those found typically today among indoctrinated Christians desperate to grasp at any straw of an interpretation which resolves the contradiction between Paul and James. Whereas the contradiction is real and the view of James, who is not an apostle, should be discarded in favor of Paul who is an apostle. There's no valid reason why the letters of James and his brother Jude should be reckon scripture.

One such gloss is the idea that James 2:24 "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." should read "By works you see that a man is justified rather then solely by faith." The idea is to make works the means of seeing rather than the means of justifying. It's like taking Acts 8:23 which says, "For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity" in which Peter is criticizing Simon Magnus, and rewriting it as, "For by bitterness and by iniquity I see that you are poisoned", as if Peter was the one full of bitterness and iniquity!

To disprove the validity of such an amusing translation one needs only read the verse that follows James 2:24 which says, "Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?" How would one have to rewrite this verse to be consistent with the gloss given of verse 24? One would want to fabricate the following, "Likewise, by works don't you see that Rahab the harlot was justified?" Here the word "see" which is not even in the verse is inserted, the words jumbled. "was not" becomes "don't you see that".

And you'd have to play the same game with verse 21, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?" Wave a magic wand and turn that into, "By works don't you see that Abraham our faith was justified ..."

Very few Christian seem interested in reading out of James what James actually meant based upon what he ACTUALLY said. The vast majority seem only interested in reading into James things that he didn't say, their goal being to explain away the contradiction between James and Paul. They start with the wrong premise, assume that James' letter is the Word of God, and so the disagree with James is to disagree with God. It's an assumption that not all of us hold.

 

 

But if someone would like to defend their gloss reading of James, please do so.

There's really no contradiction between James and Paul. I would submit that Luther simply misunderstood. If we take both passage and understand them in the context that they were written both are true. James is talking about people, Abraham and Rahab, obeying God or doing good deeds. He says that these things justify a person. Paul on the other hand, when speaking of works in normally speaking about the Mosaic Law. If you look at just about every passage where Paul says works don't save you'll see that he make a reference to the Mosaic Law somewhere in his argument. For instance, Paul writes,

 

KJV  Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the  (Rom. 4:1 KJV)

 

Paul concludes that Abraham is not justified by works. But, what are those works that he's writing of?

 

 

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (Rom. 3:19-28 KJV)

 

Paul concludes that a man is justified apart from the deeds of the Mosaic Law. Then he proves his point in chapter 4 with Abraham. He shows that Abraham was justified apart from the Law. Abraham was justified by God hundreds of years before the Law was given thus proving Paul's point that a man is not justified by the works of the Law.

 

We find that same thing with Ephesians 2, probably the most famous works passage.

 

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph. 2:8-9 KJV)

 

The thing is most Christians stop here. If we read on Paul explains what this passage means.

 

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. (Eph. 2:10-22 KJV)

 

Paul says that the Gentiles were without Christ, strangers of the covennats of promise, outside the commonwealth of Israel, without hope and without God. Then he explains how that changed in Christ. He says that Christ broke down the middle wall of partition ( a reference to the dividing wall in the temple). How did Christ do that?  He abolished  the Law of commandments contained in ordinances. The Law of commandments contained in ordinances is the Mosaic Law. That is why Paul tells the Ephesians that they are not saved by works. It was not necessary for the Ephesians to keep the Law. 

 

If you look you find this same thing with almost every passage in which Paul speaks of not being saved by works. However, to show beyond doubt that Paul and James are in agreement we have Paul's own words in Romans 2.

 

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: (Rom. 2:1-10 KJV)

 

Paul states plainly that those who continue in good deeds are seeking eternal life and those who don't are seeking wrath. James said that Abraham was justified by works. Here Paul said those who continue in good works are seeking eternal life, Eternal life requires that one be justified.