Divine Healing

[Hall7]

I think Mark 11:22-23 is in context with the withered fig tree in that same chapter. I always asked myself what was the reason for Jesus to make that fig tree die, but later realized that it was to show others what they are capable of with faith. All He did was talk to the fig tree with faith and the tree listened. In context of verse 23 "and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith." Although it isn't easy to do as the subconscious often has somewhat of a doubt.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings to all ,,,,

    I remember when my father had cancer,very aggressive & not responding to treatment,,,,,my Dad & I prayed,the entire church was praying,everyone was believing,truly believing & one night I was alone,on my knees,talking with my FATHER & praying &  clearly I heard His Voice,,,He said"Don't pray for Me to spare his life because I will not,lead Him to My Son so I may give him eternal life with Me"

    I pleaded,please Father,,,,take me instead but please don't take my dad from me,I cannot bear it,,,,,,,,,but our Loving Father prepared me for the greatest loss I would ever know...........& He did spare my father,my father confessed with his mouth that Jesus is his Lord & Savior,   My Father was a Catholic & he had never said those words until then......& he asked forgiveness & received Jesus into his heart.....I was so Blessed to hear him speak the words I longed to hear

    Prior to that ,my dad came to be with me when I was going through chemo & radiation and we believed that God would heal him just as He did me ,,,,,but He said"No"....I didn't tell a soul about what I knew,it was for me to know & not anyone else,,,,not even my dad    My dad was in & out of consciousness & all of a sudden he looked alert & gazed afar off,smiling,he giggled and took his last breath

     All the faith in the world cannot change the Will of Sovereign God Almighty......& His Will is Perfect ,,,,,,to God be the Glory

                                                                                                                                                    With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Marilyn C]

Hi Kwikphilly,

 

What a wonderful testimony. I too was present at my mother`s death. She had cancer & actually couldn`t talk or focus, as the medications took effect. However I talked to her, as apparently our hearing is nearly the last to go, & I told her of all those loved ones who had gone before, dad, her mother & father, sister..etc.etc & how they were all waiting for her, (if you know what I mean). Finally she took a few large breaths & then she was gone.

 

I so praise the Lord for my parents who loved the Lord & taught me of Him & His word.

 

I agree with you Kwik & what God has said, in that our eternal life is of far greater value than an earthly healing. And so glad you heard your father tell you his confession of faith in the Lord as his saviour.

 

 

Be blessed sis, Marilyn.

 

PS. I`m so glad the Lord has you here for His purposes - truly an amazing healing.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Marilyn C

[Guest shiloh357]

Retro,

 

We always have assurance that our prayers are answered.  The problem is that we don't always like the answer.  Answers don't always come in the form of "yes."  Sometimes God says, "no."  And in some cases, the answer is, "wait."

 

Mark 11:23 is not a promise that we will get whatever we ask for.  Too often people argue that if you have enough faith that God will fulfill your request and that is simply not the case.   How do we know that Jesus didn't give James and John what he asked for?    Jesus said it wasn't his to give and there is no reason in Scripture to believe he did.  It was an immature selfish request and Jesus was not going to honor that request, even if it was his place to do so.

 

We don't always get what we want, even when the request is valid.   God has his sovereign reasons for denying our request.   How many parents have prayed fervently and desperately at the bedside of their dying child, only to have that child die?  How many people have prayed for healing and not received it and died from cancer anyway.

 

If Mark 11:22-24 were a guarantee of healing, then God isn't faithful to keep His word.  But God is always faithful, so Mark 11:22-24 is being mishandled and painted to mean something that it doesn't mean.

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, shiloh357.

 

Retro,

 

We always have assurance that our prayers are answered.  The problem is that we don't always like the answer.  Answers don't always come in the form of "yes."  Sometimes God says, "no."  And in some cases, the answer is, "wait."

 

Mark 11:23 is not a promise that we will get whatever we ask for.  Too often people argue that if you have enough faith that God will fulfill your request and that is simply not the case.   How do we know that Jesus didn't give James and John what he asked for?    Jesus said it wasn't his to give and there is no reason in Scripture to believe he did.  It was an immature selfish request and Jesus was not going to honor that request, even if it was his place to do so.

 

We don't always get what we want, even when the request is valid.   God has his sovereign reasons for denying our request.   How many parents have prayed fervently and desperately at the bedside of their dying child, only to have that child die?  How many people have prayed for healing and not received it and died from cancer anyway.

 

If Mark 11:22-24 were a guarantee of healing, then God isn't faithful to keep His word.  But God is always faithful, so Mark 11:22-24 is being mishandled and painted to mean something that it doesn't mean.

 

Hmmphf! Maybe SOME people argue that if you have enough faith (etc.), but I DON’T! It’s not about how much faith you have but in how big is your God in whom you put your trust!

 

Have you ever thought for a moment how even someone who prays to Buddha could say the same thing as you’ve just said? God DOES have His sovereign reasons for denying IGNORING our requests! He ignores them because there is NO REASON FOR HIM TO FULFILL THOSE REQUESTS! Again, WHY SHOULD GOD AUTHENTICATE ANY MESSAGE (WITH MIRACLES) EXCEPT ONE HE WOULD ENDORSE?! 

 

Look, I’ve heard that sorry excuse for lack of power for ... well ... practically FOREVER! “God ALWAYS answers with (1) yes, (2) no, or (3) wait.” That’s like the roll of the dice!

 

Let’s make it ONE die to make it easier: Roll the die. If you get a 1 or 2, it means “no.” If’ you roll a 3 or a 4, it means “wait.” If you roll a 5 or 6, it means “yes.” So, rolling the die is like praying for your answer. If you roll the die, you’re ALWAYS going to get a 1-2, 3-4, or 5-6. BUT, if you’re looking for a 5 or 6 only, then you’ve only got a 33% chance of getting those numbers! You’d get as good odds as you would with the old Magic 8 Ball (which is like a die floating in a solution within the 8 ball, except the die may have more than 6 sides)!

 

Doesn’t that BOTHER you?! Do you have a God who is big enough or not? Do you have a God who loves you or not? Do you have a God who takes action or not?! Do you even know His Name? or do you just call Him “Father” or “Heavenly Father” or “Lord” or “God?”Let’s just set up an idol to some god or other - maybe even call him “Allah” - and roll the ol’ Magic 8 Ball! We’d get just as good results!

 

Look, I’m a little irate at the moment, because this is so serious, but I’m not mad at you or anyone else who believes as you do. I’m mad at the lie! I’m mad at the one who has perpetrated that lie to God’s people, haSatan, for SO-O-O-O-O long! I FEEL for you, brother, and I want you to know that GOD DOES INDEED LOVE YOU!! Follow this account carefully:

 

1 Kings 17-18

17:1 And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the Lord God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.

2 And the word of the LORD came unto him, saying,

3 Get thee hence, and turn thee eastward, and hide thyself by the brook Cherith, that is before Jordan.

4 And it shall be, that thou shalt drink of the brook; and I have commanded the ravens to feed thee there.

5 So he went and did according unto the word of the LORD: for he went and dwelt by the brook Cherith, that is before Jordan.

6 And the ravens brought him bread and flesh in the morning, and bread and flesh in the evening; and he drank of the brook.

7 And it came to pass after a while, that the brook dried up, because there had been no rain in the land.

8 And the word of the LORD came unto him, saying,

9 Arise, get thee to Zarephath, which belongeth to Zidon, and dwell there: behold, I have commanded a widow woman there to sustain thee.

10 So he arose and went to Zarephath. And when he came to the gate of the city, behold, the widow woman was there gathering of sticks: and he called to her, and said, Fetch me, I pray thee, a little water in a vessel, that I may drink.

11 And as she was going to fetch it, he called to her, and said, Bring me, I pray thee, a morsel of bread in thine hand.

12 And she said, As the Lord thy God liveth, I have not a cake, but an handful of meal in a barrel, and a little oil in a cruse: and, behold, I am gathering two sticks, that I may go in and dress it for me and my son, that we may eat it, and die.

13 And Elijah said unto her, Fear not; go and do as thou hast said: but make me thereof a little cake first, and bring it unto me, and after make for thee and for thy son.

14 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel, The barrel of meal shall not waste, neither shall the cruse of oil fail, until the day that the LORD sendeth rain upon the earth.

15 And she went and did according to the saying of Elijah: and she, and he, and her house, did eat many days.

16 And the barrel of meal wasted not, neither did the cruse of oil fail, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake by Elijah.

17 And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him.

18 And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son?

19 And he said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed.

20 And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?

21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the Lord, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.

22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

23 And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth.

24 And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is truth.

18:1 And it came to pass after many days, that the word of the LORD came to Elijah in the third year, saying, Go, shew thyself unto Ahab; and I will send rain upon the earth.

2 And Elijah went to shew himself unto Ahab. And there was a sore famine in Samaria.

3 And Ahab called Obadiah, which was the governor of his house. (Now Obadiah feared the LORD greatly:

4 For it was so, when Jezebel cut off the prophets of the Lord, that Obadiah took an hundred prophets, and hid them by fifty in a cave, and fed them with bread and water.)

5 And Ahab said unto Obadiah, Go into the land, unto all fountains of water, and unto all brooks: peradventure we may find grass to save the horses and mules alive, that we lose not all the beasts.

6 So they divided the land between them to pass throughout it: Ahab went one way by himself, and Obadiah went another way by himself.

7 And as Obadiah was in the way, behold, Elijah met him: and he knew him, and fell on his face, and said, Art thou that my lord Elijah?

8 And he answered him, I am: go, tell thy lord, Behold, Elijah is here.

9 And he said, What have I sinned, that thou wouldest deliver thy servant into the hand of Ahab, to slay me?

10 As the LORD thy God liveth, there is no nation or kingdom, whither my lord hath not sent to seek thee: and when they said, He is not there; he took an oath of the kingdom and nation, that they found thee not.

11 And now thou sayest, Go, tell thy lord, Behold, Elijah is here.

12 And it shall come to pass, as soon as I am gone from thee, that the Spirit of the LORD shall carry thee whither I know not; and so when I come and tell Ahab, and he cannot find thee, he shall slay me: but I thy servant fear the LORD from my youth.

13 Was it not told my lord what I did when Jezebel slew the prophets of the LORD, how I hid an hundred men of the LORD'S prophets by fifty in a cave, and fed them with bread and water?

14 And now thou sayest, Go, tell thy lord, Behold, Elijah is here: and he shall slay me.

15 And Elijah said, As the LORD of hosts liveth, before whom I stand, I will surely shew myself unto him to day.

16 So Obadiah went to meet Ahab, and told him: and Ahab went to meet Elijah.

17 And it came to pass, when Ahab saw Elijah, that Ahab said unto him, Art thou he that troubleth Israel?

18 And he answered, I have not troubled Israel; but thou, and thy father's house, in that ye have forsaken the commandments of the LORD, and thou hast followed Baalim.

19 Now therefore send, and gather to me all Israel unto mount Carmel, and the prophets of Baal four hundred and fifty, and the prophets of the groves four hundred, which eat at Jezebel's table.

20 So Ahab sent unto all the children of Israel, and gathered the prophets together unto mount Carmel.

21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

22 Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the LORD; but Baal's prophets are four hundred and fifty men.

23 Let them therefore give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under: and I will dress the other bullock, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under:

24 And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.

25 And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress it first; for ye are many; and call on the name of your gods, but put no fire under.

26 And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.

27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.

28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.

29 And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.

30 And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that was broken down.

31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:

32 And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.

33 And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid him on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood.

34 And he said, Do it the second time. And they did it the second time. And he said, Do it the third time. And they did it the third time.

35 And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water.

36 And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.

37 Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.

38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God.

40 And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.

41 And Elijah said unto Ahab, Get thee up, eat and drink; for there is a sound of abundance of rain.

42 So Ahab went up to eat and to drink. And Elijah went up to the top of Carmel; and he cast himself down upon the earth, and put his face between his knees,

43 And said to his servant, Go up now, look toward the sea. And he went up, and looked, and said, There is nothing. And he said, Go again seven times.

44 And it came to pass at the seventh time, that he said, Behold, there ariseth a little cloud out of the sea, like a man's hand. And he said, Go up, say unto Ahab, Prepare thy chariot, and get thee down, that the rain stop thee not.

45 And it came to pass in the mean while, that the heaven was black with clouds and wind, and there was a great rain. And Ahab rode, and went to Jezreel.

46 And the hand of the LORD was on Elijah; and he girded up his loins, and ran before Ahab to the entrance of Jezreel.

KJV

 

What did Ya`aqov (James) say about Eliyahu?

 

James 5:17-18

17 Elias (Eliyahu/Elijah) was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

KJV

 

There’s nothing special about the word “earnestly.” Have you ever wondered why Ya`aqov puts these statements in his epistle where he does?

 

Notice the context:

 

James 5:13-20

13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

KJV

 

It’s not “the EFFECTUAL FERVENT prayer of a righteous man availeth much”; it’s “the effectual fervent prayer of a RIGHTEOUS man availeth much!” It’s not that “Eliyahu was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed EARNESTLY”; it’s “Eliyahu was a man SUBJECT TO LIKE PASSIONS as we are, and he prayed earnestly!” He was a RIGHTEOUS MAN although subject to the same passions as we are!

 

P.S. - Sorry, I was going to add one more thing: Eliyahu’s “dice” was more like the flip of a coin: “Heads, I win; tails you lose!"

[Hall7]

Healing takes place with faith unless God says no. The thing is that if one has set in their mind that God might say no or that they might have to wait for that healing when they pray, means that there is doubt in their prayer meaning lack of faith. Shiloh, during this whole thread you've been preaching more against the faith of being healed instead of all the positive things about how we can be healed. There is doubt of healing in your mind, and if you are sick and want to be healed but can't be for some reason, it's either because of the present doubt you have in your mind or plainly because God says no for a certain reason. God sometimes says no either because some aren't completely free inside of such things as a.spirit of pride, or vengeance or anger etc... but once they are free by admitting and surrendering these things completely to God, they are healed. He might also say no because its time for that person to soon be with Him such as Kwik's father. But most of the time the answer is yes as long as we are right inside with ourselves and Him, forgiveness of a certain individual can also put a hold on our healing...

Shiloh have you ever felt the Holy Spirit take over your mind, spirit and body? If you have what did it feel like?

[Guest shiloh357]

Hi Retro,

 

God obviously doesn't honor requests made to Buddha.  That example is rather nonsensical.    You may not like it but God answers in one of those three ways because God has a sovereign plan and he does what he chooses do according to his own good pleasure.

 

God heals miraculously at times, and other times, God never grants such a request in this life.  Sometimes, the healing doesn't take place until a believer goes home to be with the Lord.   That is not rolling the dice.   That is a rather silly example.  

 

The fact is that we come to God humbly and we humbly accept his answer, and if his answer is no, he will give us the grace, patience and joy to accept that decision.     I am not bothered by that at all.   I have learned that God always knows what is best and he sees the big picture and knows the end from the beginning.   It is not about God being big enough or not.  That isn't the issue at all.

 

But God doesn't always do what we think he should.  We think that we know the answer to the problem and often our "prayer of Faith,"   amounts to looking up at God and saying,  "MY will be done!"     Our prayers are too often an attempt to strong arming God to do what WE want him to do because we think we know what the solution is.  Sometimes, healing isn't the solution.

 

One of the biggest  mistakes in handling the Word of God is when people try to take stories out of the Bible and make doctrines out of those stories.    Elijah was a prophet.   We are not prophets and there is no guarantee from Scripture that when we pray for healing we will be healed.  The Bible makes no hard and fast promise to that effect.

 

The point James was making about Elijah was that he prayed fervently.   He was a model of fervent prayer.   James wasn't guaranteeing that if we pray like Elijah, we would get the same results.    James is trying encourage his readers to pray fervently.   Be like the prophet of God who prayed fervently, not because God will do the same miraculous things he did with Elijah but because Elijah modeled kind of fervent prayer that pleases God.

[Guest shiloh357]

Hi Hall,

 

Miraculous healing takes place when God decides to do it.   Your faith or lack of faith does not override God's sovereignty.  If God chooses not to heal, no amount of faith on your part or anyone else's part will change that.

 

Hall, what I have been speaking out against is that notion that it is ALWAYS God's will to heal and that he will never say no.  So, according to you,  if people don't get healed it is either because of something wrong in their heart, some sin perhaps,  or it is because they don't have enough faith, and have too much doubt???    That's not a problem at all because a lack of faith is not a hindrance to God's will.   God doesn't deny us anything because we just can't muster up the faith for it.  God is not up in heaven saying, "I want to heal that person, but they just don't have enough faith, so I guess I can't heal them." 

 

God is not limited by us, our faith, or lack thereof.  There are no limiting factors in this issue.  God heals at times and other times, he chooses not to often for reasons known only to him. That's just how it is.

[Hall7]

I don't think you understood what I wrote. It would be nice if you answered my question though.

[Guest shiloh357]

I understood you perfectly, Hall.  I guess you didn't like the answer.     No, I have never felt the Holy Spirit take over my body and mind and spirit.   He doesn't do that.   Nohwere in the Bible does he overtake a person's mind or body or whatever.

 

If something is "taking over"  your entire being, you are dealing with  "A"  spirit, not the Holy Spirit.   If a spirit is coming in and taking you over, you need deliverance from demons.