Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[Last Daze]

Hello saints, ...If you are a post-tribulation / pre-wrath advocate, use this thread to defend your position.

Before the seven final trumpet judgments denoting WRATH on earth, He will take His Church directly to Heaven

 in ultimate salvation, resurrection, transformation, glorification and perfection. 

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

(1 Thess 5:9).

...The seventh (last) trumpet is when ... He raises immortal those who belong to Him (resurrection / rapture). ...

Good day.

And good day to you. I pray you come to understand and appreciate the pre-wrath teaching.

I pray that the Holy Spirit guide us into the truth and that we're all ready....come what may.

[Diaste]

On 9/18/2015, 1:24:13, ghtan said:

I did answer your question. It is implied in my question. I think the main difficulty for a post-trib rapture is that it does not find expression in Revelation. However, your assertion that "there is also a lot in Revelation that supports a post-trib rapture" led me to pose the question instead. Your choosing to focus on the side issue of the number of tribulation periods reinforces my suspicion.

As to the extent of the tribulation period, Rev 7:14 says the multitude in heaven came out of the great tribulation. Evidently, the tribulation is already underway at that point. It does not start with the trumpets.

Hope that helps.

 

 

 

It seems to me that post trib isn't quite correct either. Scripture does say that the days of 'great tribulation' are cut short. This idea of 'tribulation' means a couple things. We know it occurs in the last part of the week, as scripture says. We also know that Satan comes down to earth 'knowing he has a short time' and the beast is to 'continue 42 months' and this is often referred to as the Tribulation.

In relation to these events it's a specific time period. In the other sense it's not a specified period as in 'except those days were shortened'. By how much they are shortened we do not know, but we do know the last half of the week is 42 months which coincides with the beasts reign and the beginning of the second half ushered in at the event of the A of D.

So then 'great tribulation' is over at some point before the end of the last half of the week. In the remaining portion of the last week the beast is allowed to continue but at the same time the wrath of God is being poured out on the beast's kingdom. Believers have been gathered to heaven when the 'days were cut short' so they do not experience the wrath of God, as scripture says. 

So the gathering, Second Coming, happens after the tribulation, when 'great tribulation' is cut short, sometime before the end of the last week. From what I can see it looks like there is at least a 5-6 month difference between the two. The Second Coming then is not mid-trib, not post-trib and not exactly pre-wrath either. Scripture records the Second Coming of Jesus is the 'gathering' and the wrath of God at the same time.

It's always a mistake to assume Revelation is a strict chronology. It isn't and in fact cannot be or the last book of the bible would make little sense. There are chronological sections and as you correctly noted Rev 4-7 is one of them. Concerning the trumpets and when they begin God does not tell us. Trib could indeed start with the trumpets or it may not, scripture does not say when they begin but there are many clues concerning when the trumpets and bowls end. 

Rev 4-7 is the main overview of the last week. Appropriate to begin the narrative with a clear outline from the beginning to the end of the most important 7 years in the entire history of mankind.

From 7-18 Jesus is showing us the events and major players that are contained within the overview, along with mini chronologies, given in the 4 previous chapters. Chapters 19-22 are the events that occur after the Lord has defeated His enemies on earth and in heaven and I would think these are also chronological.

 

[ghtan]

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

Rev 4-7 is the main overview of the last week. Appropriate to begin the narrative with a clear outline from the beginning to the end of the most important 7 years in the entire history of mankind.

From 7-18 Jesus is showing us the events and major players that are contained within the overview, along with mini chronologies, given in the 4 previous chapters. Chapters 19-22 are the events that occur after the Lord has defeated His enemies on earth and in heaven and I would think these are also chronological.

 

Hi there! It was quite a surprise to get a comment after all this time. Anyway, what in the text leads you to regard ch 4-7 as the overview? Why not see ch 4-11 as one long sequence? After all, the seventh seal is not opened until ch 8 and so it seems to me that John is indicating that the narrative in ch 4-7 continues into ch 8. Btw, where do you see the rapture in Revelation? Blessings.

[Diaste]

On 11/29/2015, 10:18:31, ghtan said:

Hi there! It was quite a surprise to get a comment after all this time. Anyway, what in the text leads you to regard ch 4-7 as the overview? Why not see ch 4-11 as one long sequence? After all, the seventh seal is not opened until ch 8 and so it seems to me that John is indicating that the narrative in ch 4-7 continues into ch 8. Btw, where do you see the rapture in Revelation? Blessings.

I would not see 4-11 as one long sequence because I associate the gathering of the elect with the end of the age and the Day of the Lord. The sixth seal is the gathering at the end of ch 7. Chapter 8 begins with showing details of coming events. I would not make sense for 8 to be part of the 4-7 chronology as the gathering of the elect occurs at the 7th trump (Day of the Lord)

[WilliamL]

On 11/29/2015, 7:49:59, Diaste said:

It seems to me that post trib isn't quite correct either. Scripture does say that the days of 'great tribulation' are cut short. This idea of 'tribulation' means a couple things. We know it occurs in the last part of the week, as scripture says. We also know that Satan comes down to earth 'knowing he has a short time' and the beast is to 'continue 42 months' and this is often referred to as the Tribulation.

No scripture whatsoever says that the Trib "occurs in the last part of [Daniel 9's 70th] week." This is pure fabrication of some to support a scripturally-unsupportable doctrine.

[ghtan]

10 hours ago, WilliamL said:

On 11/29/2015, 10:49:59, Diaste said:

It seems to me that post trib isn't quite correct either. Scripture does say that the days of 'great tribulation' are cut short. This idea of 'tribulation' means a couple things. We know it occurs in the last part of the week, as scripture says. We also know that Satan comes down to earth 'knowing he has a short time' and the beast is to 'continue 42 months' and this is often referred to as the Tribulation.

No scripture whatsoever says that the Trib "occurs in the last part of [Daniel 9's 70th] week." This is pure fabrication of some to support a scripturally-unsupportable doctrine.

Why not read Revelation without referring to OT prophecies? I think John's work makes good sense on its own. Then we do not have to worry what Daniel's 70th week mean.  

[WilliamL]

3 hours ago, ghtan said:

Why not read Revelation without referring to OT prophecies? I think John's work makes good sense on its own. Then we do not have to worry what Daniel's 70th week mean.  

But I have read Revelation countless times, and nothing in it speaks of a week of years either. Likewise, nothing in Revelation says the Tribulation will be any set length of time. It does mention a period or periods of 1260 day/42 months/3-1/2 times, but never in direct reference to the Tribulation. Do you not agree?

[Montana Marv]

Rev 16:8,9 - The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was given power to scorch people with fire.  They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify God.

No descriptive terminology here as in some of the previous bowl judgments pertaining to who or what will this particular bowl judgment is to affect.  (those with the mark of the beast and those who worshiped him or the beasts kingdom)  These verses say people are affected.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, ghtan said:

 

On 12/5/2015, 6:14:46, WilliamL said:

No scripture whatsoever says that the Trib "occurs in the last part of [Daniel 9's 70th] week." This is pure fabrication of some to support a scripturally-unsupportable doctrine.

No scripture whatsoevah, eh? Well, you're right. No scripture I have seen says, "Behold! Verily I say unto you great tribulation occurs in the last half of a week of years that will begin and end 2000 odd years in the future."

Since you have a church I can forgive the oversight. One has to read and get understanding about what the Lord is saying in order to discern the truth. Church organizations are notorious for burying the truth so it's no surprise you can't see this. This issue is a simple math problem. It's 1+1+1=3. Three bits of logic that will add up to a satisfying conclusion.

First, the last book of the bible is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. It's the book of the Lord, so named and the only one in the entire scripture so designated. To go along with this realization there are 4 gospels in which the words of Jesus are many and manifest. Since the words of Jesus in the gospels refer to the end of the age we can safely assume that Jesus spoke harmoniously with the His own Revelation to John contained in the last book of the bible.

Second, Jesus refers to an 'abomination that makes desolate' (A of D) in the gospels. Jesus also said that Daniel spoke of this event as well. We are told to refer to what Daniel said about this 'abomination'. Along with encouraging us to read what Daniel the Prophet said about this 'abomination that makes desolate' Jesus said that after the A of D occurs there would be 'great tribulation'. As in Matt 24:15-21: 

¹⁵ “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’^[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— ¹⁶ then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. ¹⁷ Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. ¹⁸ Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. ¹⁹ How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! ²⁰ Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. ²¹ For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. (this 'great distress', 'great tribulation' in the KJV, follows and is directly associated with the A of D)

Third, Daniel said this A of D, the same one Jesus referred to in the Gospels, occurs in the 'midst of the week'.

Daniel 9:27:

 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’(Week)^[h] In the middle of the ‘seven’ (Week)^[i] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple^[j] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. So it's pretty clear that the A of D occurs in the middle of the last week(seven).

Therefore: Matt 24 is Jesus relating the events and chronology of the end of the age to the disciples and us. If this is true then Revelation also refers to the end of the age as there are a great many events spoken of by Jesus in the gospels and again in Revelation. This means that the Revelation is about the end of the age along with all the events and more to the point, the time periods of 3.5 years(42 months, 1260 days, all the same length). Also, the A of D as referred to by Jesus must be in the last days at the end of the age as well. Daniel confirms this as the Prophet places the last week at the time the covenant is confirmed for one week, and the A of D is placed in the middle of that week. That's the three points that add up to the conclusion that indeed 'great tribulation' or 'great distress' occurs in association with the A of D, which occurs in the middle of the week.

That makes the idea of 'great tribulation' occurring in the last part of the last week true, and a solid scriptural rock.

[ghtan]

13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

But I have read Revelation countless times, and nothing in it speaks of a week of years either. Likewise, nothing in Revelation says the Tribulation will be any set length of time. It does mention a period or periods of 1260 day/42 months/3-1/2 times, but never in direct reference to the Tribulation. Do you not agree?

The week of years is a legacy of Dan 9. If we read Rev on its own, we would not look for a 7 year tribulation period. However, tribulation is just another term for suffering and the latter is all over Rev. What seems clear is that there is a period of suffering in the seals, another in the trumpets and another in the bowls. At the same time, there are several 3.5 year periods. I think John wants us to relate the 3.5 years to the seals, trumpets and bowls. The question is: do ALL the references to 3.5 years refer to the SAME period? I think not. I believe one 3.5 years refers to the seals while another refers to the trumpets (=bowls). Then, assuming ch 4-11 is one long sequence, the seals and trumpets add up to 7 years. Therefore, even though we do not start off looking for a 7 year tribulation period, we end up with one.