Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[WilliamL]

7 hours ago, inchrist said:

I totally agree with that, but this is what I find contradictory in IMHO….. when Christ comes to resurrect the dead in Christ and the living in Christ, it says we will be changed in a twinkle of an eye, we will have new bodies, we will be immortal, why would you need to be taking out of the earth, when you are now literally in your new bodies not of this earth. None of the effects of God’s wrath on this material earth would harm you, you would neither need to eat or drink water apart from just the pleasure of eating or drinking. You would, like Christ, travel through walls, perhaps teleport from one place on earth to the other in an instant….why would you need to be in heaven in order to escape the wrath?  We would be sealed not so? So being on earth during the wrath sealed doesn’t mean we are appointed to wrath does it?

While clearly most of the Church, "a great multitude that no can number" (Rev. 7:9) will be Raptured into heaven, there will be some walking the walk you describe above. This is the Manchild group born of the Woman in Rev. 12:5, the child of the birthpangs-era, which will become the premier ministry of the Kingdom Age; akin to the Apostles and other chief disciples of Jesus at his First Coming.

These are the ones the Indian prophecies call the Warriors of the Rainbow, having power to shepherd both heavenly and earthly ecclesias, and do mighty works above and below, just as Christ will be doing.

[WilliamL]

5 hours ago, inchrist said:

The chronical order of events is actually very clear, 1st the seals from seal 1 – to seal 5 (tribulation) then seal 6 – 5th trumpet ( cosmic signs)  and then 6th trumpet – end of 7th bowl ( Christ has returned conducting the Harvest)

That means Christ has not returned up to the point of the 5th trumpet.

And this is where we part company. Rev. 7 clearly shows the raptured saints already in heaven, "having come out of the great tribulation," before any of the Trumpets begin to be blown. They cannot be raptured until he comes for them.

Once more to repeat: the same sequence of events shown during the Exodus are shown in Revelation for the End Times:

1) [Seals for the spirit/ruach-elected of heaven] God descends to call up only the elect of his people upon the mountain (formerly earthly Mount Sinai, latterly heavenly Mount Zion);

2) [Trumpets for the soul/nephesh-elected of earth] God establishes his earthly ruling authority;

3) [Bowls for the flesh/basar-nations of earth] God brings judgment both personally and through his people upon the nations.

 

At the 6th Seal, "the Great Day of His wrath has come [literally, came]." Rev. 6:17. From this point on, the Lord's continuing Presence has returned to be involved with the earth's and Israel's affairs. However, Israel must then undergo 1260 days of punishment and purging before the Kingdom is re-established on earth at the 7th Trumpet.

5 hours ago, inchrist said:

This fits exactly with what Daniel saw in Daniel 7:13 & 14 notice how Daniel 7:14 fits exactly with the 7^th trumpet, that means if Christ has begun reigning in the 7^th trumpet, Christ's return is triggered by the death of the 2 witnesses.

We agree here in everything except your last phrase, "Christ's return is triggered by the death of the 2 witnesses." Christ's Presence has already returned by this time; but until this point, he has not established his earthly Kingdom authority. And even after he does establish it at the 7th Trumpet, that authority must still overcome the Beast and nations of the earth who continue to reject that authority; and they are not defeated until the 7th Bowl.

This order follows in the very same manner as the other OT type and shadow: when King Solomon (formerly Prince of Peace) established his kingdom, he still had to later put down those who remained threats to his rule, namely his brother and anti-king Adonijah [Beast], and the rebellious priest Abiathar [Satan], and the rebellious strongman Joab [False Prophet].

 

[WilliamL]

4 hours ago, inchrist said:

I highly doubt 7:9 pictures the raptured and the resurrected given the fact the dead are only judged and servants only rewarded in Rev 11:18....

The time has come to judge the dead, and to reward Your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear Your name, both small and great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

what you are seeing in Rev 7:9 would certainly be the spirits of those slain.

The Greek literally says,

"The nations were angry [aorist past tense] and your wrath came [aorist past tense], and the time of the dead to be judged [ [aorist infinitive past tense]..."

The Greek verb tenses tell us that these things have already occurred before the 7th Trumpet. Rev. 6:17 tells us specifically that "the great day of his Wrath came [aorist past tense]" at the 6th Seal.

Those pictured in Rev. 7 "having come out of the Great Tribulation" are called "a great multitude which no one can number." Rev. 9:16 later mentions a number of 200 million, so these are obviously a greater number than that. It can only be the Church: there certainly cannot be a later Rapture of more than these. Nothing at all in Rev. 7's description of these saints says that they are all "spirits of those slain."

[Montana Marv]

4 hours ago, inchrist said:

I highly doubt 7:9 pictures the raptured and the resurrected given the fact the dead are only judged and servants only rewarded in Rev 11:18....

The time has come to judge the dead, and to reward Your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear Your name, both small and great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

what you are seeing in Rev 7:9 would certainly be the spirits of those slain.

This is the same problem I'm having with pretribs, pretribs claim the resurrection and rapture occurs before seal 1, yet in seal 5 we are still seeing those who dead in christ still to reach its full....yet pre tribs will force fit the living in with the dead in order to be the first, its the same with prewrath, claiming the dead in christ and those alive in christ are rewarded in seal 6, yet scripture declares it in the 7th trumpet

inChrist

Those of Rev 7:9 are those of v.14 who have come out of the great Tribulation alive (not in Spirit). v.16 - never again will they hunger or thirst.  v.17 - The Lamb will be their shepherd.  (Christ is already our shepherd as the Bride).  This group of people of all nations and languages came out from the Great Tribulation.  Those of the Bride who have already died cannot be of this group.  For they never came out from this great tribulation.  We as the Bride Rule with Christ, for we already have served Him in our lifetime as Believers, these who come out serve Christ.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

14 hours ago, inchrist said:

I highly doubt 7:9 pictures the raptured and the resurrected given the fact the dead are only judged and servants only rewarded in Rev 11:18....

The time has come to judge the dead, and to reward Your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear Your name, both small and great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

what you are seeing in Rev 7:9 would certainly be the spirits of those slain.

This is the same problem I'm having with pretribs, pretribs claim the resurrection and rapture occurs before seal 1, yet in seal 5 we are still seeing those who dead in christ still to reach its full....yet pre tribs will force fit the living in with the dead in order to be the first, its the same with prewrath, claiming the dead in christ and those alive in christ are rewarded in seal 6, yet scripture declares it in the 7th trumpet

Rev 7:9-17 shows the result of the Day of the Lord Gathering.
In the sixth Seal, as with Jesus' detailed Olivet Discourse, when He returns, the Elect are gathered up.

The precursor event to the Day of the Lord is determined by Joel 2:31:
"The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes."

This happens in both the Olivet Discourse in Mt 24:29 and with the opening of the sixth Seal.
Afterward, in sequence order in both the Olivet Discourse and Revelation, we find mention of the Elect being gathered up; the Great Multitude in the third Heaven of the Father's presence.

I put it to you that the arrival of the Great Multitude, previously absent in John's reporting of what he sees in Heaven, is the result of the gathering of the Elect.
And with additional information from Paul in 1Th 4:16-17, we know that gathering is preceded by the resurrection of the Dead in Christ: truly over thousands of years - a Great Multitude indeed.

The Rapture happens on the Day of the Lord when Christ Returns and every eye will see Him.

[Montana Marv]

15 hours ago, inchrist said:

So we can’t ascribe a mouth , a pair of eyes, a stomach, a tongue to a bodiless soul who will never again hunger or thirst?

 

 

 

Based on what?

 

The Bride (Believers which already have died) will never come out of this great distress or great tribulation as others have.  So do you consider them as unequal.  Those who come out of this great distress Serve Christ, they do not Rule with Christ as Scripture says the Bride does.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Last Daze]

11 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

The Bride (Believers which already have died) will never come out of this great distress or great tribulation as others have.  So do you consider them as unequal.  Those who come out of this great distress Serve Christ, they do not Rule with Christ as Scripture says the Bride does.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.  The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.  Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.  Revelation 20:4-6

[Montana Marv]

3 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.  The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.  Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.  Revelation 20:4-6

Those who have died before us have never seen the beast or had the opportunity to take his mark. So who are they.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Last Daze]

55 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Those who have died before us have never seen the beast or had the opportunity to take his mark. So who are they.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I really can't make sense of your question.  The passage I quoted from Revelation 20 speaks for itself.  It identifies who takes place in the first resurrection, namely:

• Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them.
• And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God.
• and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand.

I'll let you figure out who these three distinct groups of people are.  I'll give you a hint: it makes up the dead in Christ and those who are alive when He returns, just like Paul said.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 5/16/2016 at 4:26 PM, inchrist said:

Luke 21:25

Acts 2:20

Third Trumpet: The Waters Struck

Fourth Trumpet: The Heavens Struck

Hence the order of things

1st) Tribulation (distress) – 2nd) Then signs (cosmic signs) – 3rd) then the return of Christ

 

(I shortened your quote for ease of reading)
The point of going back to Joel 2:31, which is repeated in Acts 2:20 - is to establish the sun/moon/star event as a specific and unique sign given before the Day of the Lord.

Thus, as a specific and unique event, every time we see it described - and it is a mistake of ultra-literalism to insist it be described word-for-word exactly the same each time - we can tie different accounts together as happening at the same time.

So when we see the sun/moon/star event in the Olivet Discourse:
.....Mt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken."
It is the same as is given in the other Synoptic accounts: i.e., Mark and Luke.
Mark's account is nearly the same, however, Luke's account of the Olivet Discourse is split between two chapters: 17 and 21.
(I prefer to use Matthew's account because it has the most complete rendition of what Jesus said in this most important, eschatological discourse, the fifth of five in the book of Matthew.)

In all three accounts though, we do have the same basic Sequence-of-Events:

• The Abomination(s) Desolation
• The Great Tribulation
• The Sun/moon/star sign
• The Coming of Christ Jesus (on the clouds)
• The Gathering Up.

Now - when we see the signature thumbprint of God, the sun/moon/star event - we can know it is also setting that account at the same time as what we see in the Gospel from Jesus.

.....Rev 6:12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.

Now - to say that Rev 6:12 & 13 is not the same as Mt 24:29, or Joel 2:31 is to miss the witness being provided on the basis on a false test: an exact word-for-word match.
To do so, tosses the baby out with the bath water.

The meaning is the same, and it is given in the same order as well: the sun is darkened: black; the moon instead of silver is blood: not its normal light; and gigantic solar furnaces will invade our solar system and literally swallow the earth...  ...no, they are not stars, which are suns, but "falling stars" - meteors!  This is a celestial fireworks show!  Little points of light will be streaking across the sky in what I can only imagine will be a meteor shower of unprecedented intensity.

So - we can conclude that following events of the sixth Seal happen coincidentally with the events that Jesus set forth to us in the Olivet Discourse.

And in likewise fashion in verse 14, we get additional information to something hinted, but not detailed in the Olivet Discourse.
.....Rev 6:14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up,
.....Mt 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky,
This is action of the sky being "rolled up" like a scroll, also happens in conjunction with the Day of the Lord's Wrath in Isaiah 34:4
.....And the sky will be rolled up like a scroll;

I put it to you, that the sign of the Son of Man is the Scrolling of the Sky:
A dimensional rift between our natural world and Heaven.
It is through this "opening" that night becomes day with the Light of the Lord and Heaven above shining through.
And so Jesus will descend - as He had gone up at His Ascension.

And where did Jesus Ascend?  From the Mount of Olives.
.....Acts 1:9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11 They also said, " Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."  12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away.
And what happens next with the sixth Seal?
.....Rev 6:14b and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Now how is that?

Because when Jesus returns, He TOUCHES DOWN on the Mount of Olives - just as He had gone up.
.....Zechariah 14;4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.
WHEN Jesus Touches Down, the Mount of Olives will be split.
We now know, that with geoplate techtonics, that major earthquakes actually change the topography of the entire earth.
When Jesus touches down on the Mount of Olives, every point on the earth will shift.
What is in the Bible is factually true, and beyond the ability of the human authors to have been able to have been known at their time.

In the broad overview of the end-times which are chapters 4-11 (exclusive) in Revelation - two major events are also associated with the sixth Seal:

• The 144,000 - which is replicated in the detailed parallel account of chapters 13-16 (inclusive) in Revelation, and,
• The Great Multitude - which come out of the Great Tribulation.

Now - when we look to the parallel account of the 144,000 in Revelation chapter 14, we see that they are with Jesus on Mount Zion.
.....Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty- four thousand,
Here again, is Jesus ON THE EARTH, BEFORE the gathering on the clouds which is repeated from the Olivet Discourse in Rev 14:14.
The reason it is Mount Zion is that it is no longer Mount Olive: the splitting has changed the nature of the Mountain.

In the sixth Seal account - Jesus parousia is conspicuously absent.
The omission of a fact is not the commission of an error.
And just because something is not explicitly mentioned in a parallel account does not invalidate its inclusion based on another account tied together by a specific and unique event.
However - I put it to you, that the Great Multitude's sudden arrival is the result of Jesus' Gathering Up in the Olivet Discourse!

Between the 144.000 being assembled on the Earth just to the east of Jerusalem and the Gathering Up of the few Elect who survive the Great Tribulation is another event:
The Resurrection of the Dead in Christ from Paradise.
This is set as a fact by Paul in his eschatological letters to the Thessalonians and Corinthians, the first books he wrote (the Pauline Epistles are not presented in chronological order).
So before the gathering of the Elect, Jesus goes to the place of "Abraham's Bosom" detailed by Him in Luke 16, where the Dead in Christ 'rest in peace.'
So when the Elect see Jesus coming as Paul details in prophetic fashion in 1Th 3:13 - in an observer-true reference as one standing there on the earth - Jesus has already gone to that spiritual place where souls rest in peace and He has blown His Trumpet, and those who can hear (a selective calling), hear - and come with Him on the clouds.
The Gathering Up of the few Elect who remain tops out the vast multitude of Saints resurrected from the grave so that their arrival in Heaven makes a Great Multitude.

__________________________________

Now, one last fact about the sixth Seal that a lot of commentaries get wrong in my opinion...

.....Rev 6:17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
WHO says this?
The Wicked.
Do they get it right?
No.
The wicked have always gotten God wrong, and they also get the Day of the Lord wrong.
They are selfish to an extreme - they care not that they sin against God or kill His Elect.
All they care about is their own skin.

Is, in fact, the first thing that Jesus does, is display His Wrath?  No.
It's coming... the wicked have been told it is coming!
In the parallel account to the sixth Seal, found in the detailed portion of just the one 'seven' in chapters 13-16 of Revelation, three Angels tell them - right before Jesus comes on the clouds - which is also another specific and unique event - three Angels warn the wicked what will befall them.
The first Angel also fulfills Mt 24:14 in proclaiming the eternal Gospel to ALL the world as well.  Some of the Elect will be very, very new in Christ - only coming to believe at the last call for Salvation.

So while this is the "first mention" of God's Wrath in the book of Revelation, it is not an authoritative statement that it indeed has come!
It IS a factual witness by John that those who do not know what exactly is going on at that precise moment of what they said.
But the fact is that while it is true that they say it, their conclusion is not true - at the moment!
AFTER the Great Multitude is assembled in Heaven - THEN God's Wrath DOES come down!

____________________________________

Now in conclusion and in address to inchrist:

The Third Trumpet is not the sun/moon/star event.
Nor is the Fourth Trumpet the sun/moon/star event.
Both only happens after the Day of the Lord.
And while they all involve the sun, the moon, and the stars, the fourth Trumpet describes a distinctly different action: all three are affected in the same way.
And it is part of the first four Trumpets acting in THIRDS.
The sun/moon/star event is a sign.
The Wrath of God is a desolation - less light upsets the whole ecology of the earth.