Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 10:55 AM, Quasar93 said:

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The next error is the fact that the Church has nothing whatever to do with the ministry of Jesus during His entire first advent,

The Church does not begin until the First Trumpet of the Festival of Firstfruits: Pentecost.
The Church (Age) does not end until the Last Trumpet of the Festival of Rosh ha-Shannah, the Returning Anew of the Hebrew calendar.

What you have is a non-sequitur.
What exactly is your point, and what does this have to do with the timing of the Rapture?
The Disciples of Jesus are the nexus of the Church, and as the Holy Spirit cleanses them on Pentecost, they are the Firstfruits of the Church.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 10:55 AM, Quasar93 said:

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The Church is caught up to be with the Lord in 1 Thes.4:13-18, from where He takes us to be with our Father in heaven, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28, before the Day of the Lord/the 70th week of Daniel/the seven year tribulation begins, in 2 Thes.2:1-8.

And that is your belief, now where does it say that in Scripture - specifically?

[thilipsis]

18 minutes ago, Quasar93 said:

FYI, Jesus ministry in His first advent, was exclusively to Israel, which He made crystal clear in Mt.15:24 and in 10:5-6.  The Church did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3.  Therefore, keep in mind, Jesus teachings were first directed to Israel, not to His Church.

Quasar93

Hey Quasar93,

Pardon me from just jumping in the middle of this but Jesus always intended to include the Gentiles. From the Samaritan woman at the well to the Phoenician who pleaded for the life of her daughter Jesus reached out to Samaritans and Gentiles. Yes, Israel heard the gospel first but throughout Israels history prophets were sent to the Gentiles, Joseph in Egypt, Jonah, and Danial especially all key indicators that the covenants and promises were always supposed to extend to the Gentiles.

The Church did exist prior to Pentecost, they just had not been empowered for service until then. The inclusion of the Gentiles does not set aside Israel, instead we are grafted into the covenants and promises.

I guess I should mention I'm post-trib., not that I don't find a pre-trib. rapture intriguing. We now know the mystery of the Gentiles being included and now, there is no difference. Throughout the Revelation people repent and there is continued reference to the saints and the martyrs, there is a host of Tribulation saints that emerge at the end of it as well.

Just thought I'd throw my two cents worth in while figuring out where the conversation is going.

Grace and peace,
Mark

[thilipsis]

2 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

Thanks for your input, Mark.  However, it does not alter my quote that you posted in any way.  You want to keep in mind, the Church did not exist then, without the Holy Spirit, there cannot be any Church, as I previously wrote.  Tell me then, why did Jesus have to come back to establish Paul, as His apostle to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles?  As I previously stated, Jesus ministry in His first advent was EXCLUSIVELY to Israel, as documented in Mt.15:24 and in Mt.10:5-6.

Quasar93 

Well, no it was not called the 'Church' until the writing of the Greek New Testament, but the mystery of the gospel was actually revealed in the New Testament:

"Concerning which salvation the prophets sought and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: searching what time or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did point unto, when it (He) testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that should follow them. To whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto you, did they minister these things, which now have been announced unto you through them that preached the Gospel unto you by the Holy Ghost sent forth from heaven; which things angels desire to look into." (1 Peter 1:10-12)

The ministry of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament was puzzling but we know that the Spirit was, 'in them', but more often described as, 'upon them', as at Sinai and elsewhere. Abraham was called out from among the Gentiles, Israel was called out from Egypt and the meaning of Church in the New Testament simply means to be, 'called out'. We just don't know before Pentecost what role in being, 'born again' the Holy Spirit might have had if that was a part of the Old Testament ministry at all. You'll get no argument from me that the gospel went first to Israel, "He answered, 'I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." (Mt. 15:24). Or that the Apostles were instructed not to go to the Samaritans or the Gentiles but , 'go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel'. Of course I get that.

I would just remind you that Jesus did minister to a Samaritan woman in John 4 and many of the Samaritans believed because of that. What is more this appears to be his trip back to Galilee after the Sermon on the Mount so it was very early in his ministry. Gentiles were converted in the New Testament, Rahab at Jericho was saved from destruction and her name appears in the genealogy of Jesus. Ruth was a Gentile but because of her relationship with Boaz she became a Hebrew and her name appears in the genealogy of Jesus, actually she was David's grandmother.

That said, I have enjoyed learning about Dispensational and Covenant theology over the years but my convictions regarding the rapture are focused almost exclusively on the testimony of the New Testament. I honestly don't think I have ever taken up the rapture issue seriously, I really don't think there is enough to determine pre, post or even the more obscure midtrib. rapture. But I like to keep an open mind.

I followed the link btw and haven't had a lot of time to explore what is there, it looks extensive. I'll give it some time and wait to see your response and maybe we can explore the further.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Edited December 13, 2016 by thilipsis

[BobRyan]

On 6/9/2015 at 3:34 AM, George said:

Hello saints,

 

As I was going over this forum, it occurred to me that there's another position that isn't listed -- the "Pre-Wrath" position which is closely associated with the Mid-Tribulation position with a few nuances.

 

If you are a post-tribulation / pre-wrath advocate, use this thread to defend your position.

 

Your brother in the Lord with much agape love,

 

George

 

 

Best one I know -- "Immediately after the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect" Matt 24 -- Post-Trib Pre-mill ... at the 2nd coming.. rapture of the church

[iamlamad]

There is no way, scripturally, to arrive at a post trib - prewrath position without totally rearranging the book of Revelation. The "trib" or "those days" of "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus will not come in Revelation until the 15th chapter. This would be AFTER the 7 seals, AFTER the 7 trumpets, and of course after the midpoint of the week.

Yet, we see the church in heaven in chapter 7, right after the 6th seal, and before the 7th seal officially opens the 70th week. This shows us PRETRIB, AND prewrath. But not the posttrib / prewrath.

[Diaste]

30 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

There is no way, scripturally, to arrive at a post trib - prewrath position without totally rearranging the book of Revelation. The "trib" or "those days" of "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus will not come in Revelation until the 15th chapter. This would be AFTER the 7 seals, AFTER the 7 trumpets, and of course after the midpoint of the week.

Yet, we see the church in heaven in chapter 7, right after the 6th seal, and before the 7th seal officially opens the 70th week. This shows us PRETRIB, AND prewrath. But not the posttrib / prewrath.

Great tribulation and wrath are not the same, nor do they occur concurrently. Jesus said after the tribulation of those days the elect are gathered. This is a clear case where one event follows another. Certainly not pretrib. Jesus tells us it's post trib, pre wrath.

[BobRyan]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

There is no way, scripturally, to arrive at a post trib - prewrath position

post trib -- and post wrath

Until you read Matthew 24

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect" Matt 24

Quote

without totally rearranging the book of Revelation. The "trib" or "those days" of "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus will not come in Revelation until the 15th chapter. This would be AFTER the 7 seals, AFTER the 7 trumpets,

 

And sure enough the resurrection of the saints in Rev 19 thru 20:5 happens after all of that. At the 2nd coming.

 

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, BobRyan said:

 litnU

Until you read Matthew 24

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect" Matt 24

And sure enough the resurrection of the saints in Rev 19 thru 20:5 happens after all of that. At the 2nd coming.

 

Hmmm. You must be very smart. Posttribbers have been trying to proof, unsuccessfully, for many years that the gathering of the elect after the days of tribulation is the church being raptured. Of course, it must be proved by scripture.  This will prove very difficult, since Paul placed HIS gathering just before the start of the Day of the Lord, which John shows us comes at the 6th seal. 

Oh, this is no problem for posttribers! Most will just say the 6th seal will be opened at the same time Jesus returns and the Day begins, thereby rearranging John's God given chronology.

You are stuck: no matter where you place His coming and the saints rising, He will already have left heaven after the marriage and supper, for posttribbers believe the gathering will be as he descends to the earth. Again, posttribbers have never successfully solved this problem either. Oh, some will say the marriage will be in the air, or on earth after His coming - and in doing murder John's chronology! No, John places the marriage in heaven before He returns and that will certainly be what happens.

There will be a resurrection of the Old Testament saints at the 6th vial. John did not see it so did not write about it. But all will agree they will be at the marriage and supper.

Then there is another problem: if the rapture comes right at His coming, all the righteous will be changed and get their resurrection bodies. (all the unrighteous will be killed soon after at the sheep and goat judgment and / or the parable of the tares. So when Jesus begins to reign, there will be NO ONE LEFT in natural bodies to have children. Posttribbers have never solved this problem either.

Question: if posttrib believers did not have the gathering as shown in Matthew 24, what else do they have? Does posttrib belief hang on this one scripture?

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

Great tribulation and wrath are not the same, nor do they occur concurrently. Jesus said after the tribulation of those days the elect are gathered. This is a clear case where one event follows another. Certainly not pretrib. Jesus tells us it's post trib, pre wrath.

Oh, really? I wonder what bible you are studying?

Rev. 15:² And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Here in chapter 15 the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of will begin. John saw the beheaded start to appear in heaven. We KNOW it cannot be sooner, because in chapter 14 John tells us of the warning not to take the mark - so we know the mark has not been established or at least enforced until after that.

So where do we find the vials of His wrath? They come in chapter 15. In fact, God will begin pouring out the vials of wrath to SHORTEN those days of great tribulation. Therefore, John shows us that His wrath and "great tribulation" are concurrent.

Of course, posttrib / prewrathers have no problem just rearranging Revelation to fit their theory. Van Kampan and Rosenthal had no problem with that! So what if John shows wrath and tribulation happening at the same time! Just rearrange what John wrote to fit this theory!

I have a better idea: come up with a theory that FITS Revelation as written!