Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, BobRyan said:

These are not different Bibles - it is all the same - Matt 24 = 1Thess 4 = Rev 19-20 = John 14:1-3.... the rapture that happens at the 2nd coming.

 Rev 6

¹² I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; ¹³ and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. ¹⁴ The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. ¹⁵ Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; ¹⁶ and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; ¹⁷ for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Rev 14 -- saints taken to heaven at the 2nd coming

¹⁴ Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. ¹⁵ And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.” ¹⁶ Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.

There is no "70th week" in the entire book of Revelation.

All apocalyptic timelines use "day for year" just like Daniel 9

 More convoluted than it needs to be - one simple rule works. The one that everyone agrees to in Daniel 9 - day-for-year in apocalyptic timelines.

Indeed many.

There is a huge tribulation in Rev 12 - for over 1000 years.

There is another example of one coming after the 1260 years - as specificed in Rev 13 such that in the future no one will be able to buy or sell.

And then there is the Rev 16 seven last plagues that come after that.

Sorry Bob, but NOT THE SAME. Did you never notice that the gathering in Matthew (also shown in Luke) gathers from both heaven and earth? Sorry, NOT Paul's rapture which will be gathered from earth. And Paul places his gathering before the Day of the Lord. The timing of these two gatherings will be over 7 years apart.

the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Yes, John shows us that His wrath begins at the 6th seal.  But His coming will be over 7 years into the future.

Rev. 14: I know it appears that this is the harvest: but do you really think Jesus will harvest with a sickle? I think this is a very symbolic prophecy of what is soon to come: the battle of Armageddon, when God will indeed make a HUGE harvest of the wicked. And between chapter 14 and chapter 16, without a doubt many millions will be beheaded. that will be the harvest of the righteous.

There is no "70th week" in the entire book of Revelation.  Yes, of course there is: but it will take study with not preconceived glasses on. What is clearly written is the 1260 days, and 42 months of the last half of the week.

All apocalyptic timelines use "day for year" just like Daniel 9  That is a theory, but it will be proven wrong. 1260 just happens to be the number of days in half of a week of 7 years, using a 360 day year. Day for year certainly works for Daniel as in the 70th week or 70th 7: it will be the final week of 7 years. In Revelation it will go from chapter 8 to chapter 16. The start will be marked by the 7th seal, the midpoint marked by the 7th trumpet and the end marked by the 7th vial.

There is a huge tribulation in Rev 12 - for over 1000 years.  I cannot even imagine what kind of bible you study! Leaving out the first five verses which are about the birth of Christ, 12:6 is a second or two after the abomination that will divide the week. And at the same time they are fleeing, Michael is defeating Satan and casting him down. Then John tells us what the Dragon will be doing during the last half of the week. Oh, they will flee and be protected for 1260 days.

By the way, with God the father on the throne in heaven, where would Jesus be? Right by His side. You have to imagine a coming at the 6th seal, for John certainly did not write of one.

You and I are miles apart in what we believe. I challenge you to begin studying the commentators.

Edited June 10, 2017 by iamlamad

[BobRyan]

4 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry Bob, but NOT THE SAME. Did you never notice that the gathering in Matthew (also shown in Luke) gathers from both heaven and earth? Sorry, NOT Paul's rapture which will be gathered from earth.

In Matt 24 it is the "sky" and even Paul has both heaven and earth in 1 Thess 4 -- one and the same event.

Matthew 24

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect" Matt 24

More detail - same chapter.

²⁹ “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ³⁰ And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. ³¹ And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

1 Thess 4

⁵ For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. ¹⁶ For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air

Quote

 

And Paul places his gathering before the Day of the Lord. The timing of these two gatherings will be over 7 years apart.

 

Nothing in the Bible says these are two events or that they are 7 years apart.

Quote

the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Yes, John shows us that His wrath begins at the 6th seal.  But His coming will be over 7 years into the future.

 

 

The sixth seal is the second coming event.

 Rev 6

¹² I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; ¹³ and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. ¹⁴ The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. ¹⁵ Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; ¹⁶ and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; ¹⁷ for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

 

[iamlamad]

Just now, BobRyan said:

In Matt 24 it is the "sky" and even Paul has both heaven and earth in 1 Thess 4 -- one and the same event.

Matthew 24

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect" Matt 24

More detail - same chapter.

²⁹ “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ³⁰ And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. ³¹ And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

1 Thess 4

⁵ For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. ¹⁶ For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air

 

Nothing in the Bible says these are two events or that they are 7 years apart.

 

The sixth seal is the second coming event.

 Rev 6

¹² I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; ¹³ and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. ¹⁴ The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. ¹⁵ Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; ¹⁶ and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; ¹⁷ for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

 

Mark 13:27Amplified Bible (AMP) ²⁷ And then He will send out the angels, and will gather together His elect [those He has chosen for Himself] from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Again, the TIMING is different in Paul's gathering. They cannot be the same.

He will CERTAINLY come on the clouds as seen in Rev. 19. But this does not preclude Him from coming 7 years before for the rapture.

The 7 years are there, if you will study. Remember, 1260 is half of 2520 which makes up 7 years.

The sixth seal is the second coming event.  Agreed! But the Rev. 19 coming will be the THIRD coming.

[iamlamad]

On 6/8/2017 at 8:11 PM, BobRyan said:

My Post trib position (and the Bible post-trib) is also post-wrath rapture (i.e --2nd coming) -- is clear in this text.

 

Matthew 24

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect" Matt 24

The second coming appears in Rev 6 and in 14 and in 19. Sequences of 7 are in order within the sequence of 7 for the numbered events they provide. But that is about it.

After that you have Rev 11,12,13,14 more or less in order though 11,12,13 all have the same period of 1260 years of the dark ages in them.

Then Rev 16,19,20,21,22 more or less in order with a break when it comes to 17,18 that is out of sequence because it is given background to events taking place at the time of the plagues -- which are Rev 16.

You and I are way too far apart to continue. I disagree with all of the above.

[iamlamad]

On 6/8/2017 at 8:08 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Harldy! In my case, I go with the bulk of evidence from scripture. That evidence points most clearly, to a post tribulation, second coming or return of Christ, something that most pre-tribulation rapture theorists agree with.

The controversy arises, when pre-tribbers insist that there is (in spite of the lack of any specific scriptural verses to indicate a pre-trib rapture) a separate pre-tribulation coming of Christ to gather His church. They sometimes use words like His imminent coming, or the secret rapture, etc. I only wish that they would let me in on where the Bible support for these ideas come from. That, I think, is the only thing secret about it!

That assertion, is a case based solely on speculation, assumed inferences, and in some cases, clearly misinterpreted and badly exegeted passages. If you think iamlamad, that  is not the case and desire me to elaborate, I will be happy to do so at a later time. Right how, I am about to leave for a home Bible study fellowship.

Of course I disagree. Let's be truthful: there are very wise bible students on both sides of this argument and to say one say is based on speculation is just not fair and not true. It is that each side sees the pertinent scriptures differently.

[BobRyan]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Mark 13:27Amplified Bible (AMP) ²⁷ And then He will send out the angels, and will gather together His elect [those He has chosen for Himself] from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Again, the TIMING is different in Paul's gathering. They cannot be the same.

He will CERTAINLY come on the clouds as seen in Rev. 19. But this does not preclude Him from coming 7 years before for the rapture.

The 7 years are there, if you will study. Remember, 1260 is half of 2520 which makes up 7 years.

The sixth seal is the second coming event.  Agreed! But the Rev. 19 coming will be the THIRD coming.

1 Thess 4

⁵ For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. ¹⁶ For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air

 

Also says "will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep"

[Omegaman 3.0]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Of course I disagree. Let's be truthful: there are very wise bible students on both sides of this argument and to say one say is based on speculation is just not fair and not true. It is that each side sees the pertinent scriptures differently.

Well, disagreements will occur, of course. However, personally, I do not believe that all reasons for understanding something one way versus another, are equal. Some people see a Hell of torment. Some people see Christians as able to lose salvation. Some people see no evidence for God as a plurality of persons. Others, take opposite positions.

If one person says A=1, and another says A=3, we know one thing . . .  they are not both correct, though both might be wrong.

I presume that all of the doctrinal examples I just gave, have some people who believe them, and think they have scriptural evidence for what they believe. We know though, that they are not all correct.

In the A=# example, we can look at the facts, that lead to the conclusions, and decide which conclusions are best supported by the facts. If we can get on the same page logically, and agree to rules of language, deduction and induction, mathematics, etc., that we can come to an agreement, and a conclusion.

In theology/eschatology, it is the same. Leaving out, for a moment, the spiritual discernment aspect, and just going with principles that people can agree to and follow, we can discover, which viewpoints, have the better evidence. It is not a toss of a coin, or an opinion, it is objective.

In interpreting scripture, we call this process exegesis. If we agree (and we may not) with the rules or principles of sound exegesis, we should come to the same conclusions, on which ideas are best supported by scripture. This of course assumes, that we can examine a passage, dispensing with our prejudices, and our wishful thinking, presuppositions, and unfounded inferences.

It is on that basis, that I claim that post-tribism or close variants of it, have the edge, have a better claim to assessing truth. It is not as though, all opinions are equal. At least one is wrong. If one is wrong, it is not the equal of the other, and should not be treated as though it is.

So, when you say "to say one say is based on speculation is just not fair and not true", I have to still disagree. Although it is just my opinion, it is my studied opinion, that the pre-trib rapture position, is the least supported premillennial understanding of eschatology, on the basis of scripture and broadly accepted  exegetical principles.

Therefore, I maintain that what I said is not only true, it is not unfair either. You do not have to like it, nor agree, but for me to pretend otherwise, would be untruthful of me. 

As I said (I believe), there is a return of Christ, to gather His church, specified in scripture, with any normal understanding, which will occur after the great tribulation. The alternative view that claims that there is also, a return of Christ to gather believers before the great tribulation, is one that has no equal support from scripture.

The idea is only inferred, and never stated, and to prove me wrong and to be able to justify what you said about me being unfair and saying something is not true, is to present a scripture or scriptures, that conclude a pre-trib rapture without speculation and inference.

Perhaps, you have not noticed, but there is an entire thread, devoted to the defense of the pre-trib rapture, and many other threads as well, where no one has yet, provided such passages. Why should that still be the case after 14 years?

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Paul places his gathering before the Day of the Lord.

Where is this in scripture? Paul does say, "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him," Both events are linked in time/space.

The timing of these two gatherings will be over 7 years apart.

Not according to 2 Thess 2:1.

Rev. 14: I know it appears that this is the harvest: but do you really think Jesus will harvest with a sickle? I think this is a very symbolic prophecy of what is soon to come: the battle of Armageddon, when God will indeed make a HUGE harvest of the wicked. And between chapter 14 and chapter 16, without a doubt many millions will be beheaded. that will be the harvest of the righteous.

I agree. This is the harvest of the wicked.

There is no "70th week" in the entire book of Revelation.  Yes, of course there is: but it will take study with not preconceived glasses on. What is clearly written is the 1260 days, and 42 months of the last half of the week.

Agreed again, mostly. There are two halves of the week, just a little harder to see in Revelation.

All apocalyptic timelines use "day for year" just like Daniel 9  That is a theory, but it will be proven wrong. 1260 just happens to be the number of days in half of a week of 7 years, using a 360 day year. Day for year certainly works for Daniel as in the 70th week or 70th 7: it will be the final week of 7 years. In Revelation it will go from chapter 8 to chapter 16. The start will be marked by the 7th seal, the midpoint marked by the 7th trumpet and the end marked by the 7th vial.

There is a huge tribulation in Rev 12 - for over 1000 years.  I cannot even imagine what kind of bible you study! Leaving out the first five verses which are about the birth of Christ, 12:6 is a second or two after the abomination that will divide the week. And at the same time they are fleeing, Michael is defeating Satan and casting him down. Then John tells us what the Dragon will be doing during the last half of the week. Oh, they will flee and be protected for 1260 days.

By the way, with God the father on the throne in heaven, where would Jesus be? Right by His side. You have to imagine a coming at the 6th seal, for John certainly did not write of one.

The 6th seal is the 2nd coming.

Rev 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Matt 24

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

These describe the signs of the 2nd coming of Jesus. Deny it if you wish but this is the same event.

The people of the earth see the signs and know that the wrath has come, and God is looking directly at them.

Rev 6

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Pretty much undeniable. And then Paul said before the coming of the Lord and the gathering to Him happen only after the revealing of the AC sitting in the temple.

 

 

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

"Verse 6-8 above is the beginning of the week. "  Sorry, but you are mistaken. When Jesus said "The end is not yet" Then He is not talking about end time things, but rather still talking about the church age.  We are living "the beginning of sorrows" today. Jesus does not get end times until verses 13 & 14. From there, He jumps straight to the midpoint abomination and skips right over the first 3 1/2 years.  Have we had wars and rumors of wars? Of course. Have we had "famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places? Of course we have, for these are church age events.

In fact, it DOES speak to the rider with the red horse that brings wars. He and his cronies, the Black horse and rider and the Pale horse and rider, are CHURCH AGE seals So is seal 5. And seal one was opened around 32 AD and cannot possibly be the Antichrist. John used "white" 17 other times, all to represent righteousness. Do you really think the Holy Spirit would use white 17 times for righteousness and once for some kind of evil? Look at chapter 17 and see what color God paints the Beast: FIERY RED!

The black plague (Pestilence) struck Europe twice, each time killing around 1/3 of all.  These things are for the church age.

Of course Jesus does not speak of the AC until verse 15 and the abomination.

Absolutely unequivocal. The first half of the week occurs before this.  Without a doubt you are correct: the first half of the week will certainly come before the midpoint of the week. On this we agree.

it stands up to logic there must be a first half and a second half.  There certainly will be two halves, but Jesus jumps right over the first half. AFter all, He had 2000 + 7 years to cover in a few verses.

Only after the A of D can "great tribulation" occur. Notice the language that denotes succession; "For then shall be..." It's very simple," When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation...then shall be great tribulation,". Not before.  Great tribulation begins at the midpoint.   I agree with your point, but not the way you wrote it. The days of GT that JESUS spoke of most certainly can come ONLY after the midpoint. But my point is, there are OTHER times where "great tribulation" fits. Just not those days Jesus spoke of.  When the rapture takes place, it will be GT around the world, as in people dying for their testimony. but it is NOT the days of GT that Jesus spoke of.

beginning of sorrows, A of D, and then the Sign of the Son of man. In that immutable order and none other.  I agree, except the "beginning of sorrows" is not speaking of the end. We are IN these beginning of sorrows.  But certainly The signs in the sun and moon that Jesus spoke of will come very late in the week. I would say in Revelation 15, If John had seen them. He did not, so did not write about them.

The gathering of the elect only happens here, after the beginning of sorrows, the A of D, great tribulation, and the Signs of Jesus coming.  I agree, but it is NOT Paul's rapture. This is a different gathering. It gathers from both heaven and earth. Paul's rapture will gather from earth. You know, those UNDER the earth as in dead in Christ, and those alive in in Christ. My guess is, this will be God gathering all of Israel back to the land of Israel.

These verses not only fully refute a pretrib  They WOULD if indeed this gathering was the rapture. Millions believe it is not. It does not fit what Paul wrote about His gathering.  But I will say you have laid out a good argument for a posttribber. It is just not the truth of scripture. Again I will say, ONLY PAUL wrote of the rapture, but John saw the just raptured church in heaven.

Unless you can post the specific verses that speak to timing your claim is weak.  The true timing is found in 2 Thess 2  Of course I can! That is why I believe pretrib! STudy 1 Thes 4 & 5. And I agree with your statement about 2 Thes. 2 also, but I see it totally differently that you do. What Paul meant by "apostasisa" is the departing - that is, the departing of the church. If you wish to pursue this: ask yourself a question: in verse 3b, is the man of sin revealed in Paul's argument?

Objection. Speculation.  No, revealed to be by the Holy Spirit. Did you ever meditate on Matthew 27 where he wrote, "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened?" Why is it when graves are opened as in resurrection, there is a corresponding earthquake? We see it again when the two witnesses are resurrected. 

Speculation again. Except for the church in heaven in Ch 7. Lets look.  No, again revealed by the Holy Spirit, He sent me first to find the midpoint "clearly marked." (His words) Then to find the entire 70th week "clearly marked." The week is marked by the 7's.

the church is in heaven, after coming out of "great tribulation". Pretrib falls again  Not at all! You have a "fixation" whenever you see these two words together, "great" and "tribulation." Remember, these two words were NOT ENOUGH for Jesus, He went on to say they will be greater than any other time on the earth.  And don't forget, John used these two words together speaking to one of the churches. Pretrib still stands, based on a good exegesis of the Word.

How can the trib start at the 7th seal when the Church is in heaven, from out of great tribulation, before the 7th seal is opened? Methinks your own words betray you.  Not at all! Your problem is your definition of "great tribulation." it seems whenever you see these words, you think the last half of the week and the days of GT that Jesus spoke of. My friend, there are OTHER great tribulations. For example, the part of the Body of Christ that used to live in Egypt. they are almost gone. Believers have been martyred probably faster than at any other time in History, because now it is taking place in at least half the world. I am smart enough to know, people cannot from from days that don't exist yet! The Holy Spirit knows this too. It does not have to mean Revelation is out of order. How can tribulation be any greater for someone who just lost their head because they would not become a Muslim?

This group can be none other than the church.  No again! How can be be so far off in almost every point? This is the MARTYRS of the church age, so a very small part of the church or the Body of Christ on earth. I am convinced Stephen was in that group.

You totally miss the truth that Jesus GAVE US the timing of the first seals: 32 AD when He ascended. The 5th seal was opened way back then, to cover the early martyrs, like STephen and those Saul had killed.

 

YOu see, there is a very different way of looking at all of these scriptures.

And still no scriptures of proof. Just more regurgitating of commentators pursuing an agenda and vehement denial of the truth. 

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Of course their battle is already won! They said NO to the Mark and lost their head. So their battles are now over and they are in heaven waiting for their resurrection.  The next thing John saw was the preparations for the vials to be poured out. Which is my point exactly: they are concurrent: while the Beast is chopping off heads, God will start the vials of His wrath, to shorten those days of GT.

Yes, OF COURSE the tribulation is great, because people must choose between the mark and losing their head. NO ONE wants to lose their head! It will be a time of GREAT pressure on people. My guess is, there will be no water to drink: all fresh water will have been turned into blood. The only way to get a drink will be to buy water from a store - but to buy will require the mark. But to take the mark will mean doom in the lake of fire.  And when in Revelation will the mark start being enforced? It will be AFTER the angels in Rev. 14 shout the warning not to take the mark.

"then 'great tribulation' is over as there is no one left to persecute"   You are mistaken! These seen in Rev. 15 are only the FIRST People to come. Many more will follow. The mark will just have been started to be enforced. The last half of the week will be 1260 days. The days of GT will be cut short, but HOW short? Make no mistake, they will go for many days; even many months. Remember, it will be the worst time ever on planet earth.  And the mark will be established and begin to be enforced some time AFTER the warning is given in chapter 14. 

"Additionally, we see the wrath begin only after the people of God have been gathered."  Please specify a verse for this theory?  in fact, it is a true statement, but I don't think we agree on why. Paul's rapture will take place just before the 6th seal and the start of His wrath. We could say that His wrath starts at the 6th seal, and with the first trumpet judgment. However, if someone argued that His wrath begins with the 6th seal earthquake, I would not argue the point.

However, we are now talking about things after the midpoint of the week. As soon as the pretrib rapture takes place, many will realize that Jesus really IS God, and will turn to Him, so the week will never be without saints. Rev. 12 tells us that Satan will first go after those in Judea who will flee into the wilderness, but failing to capture them, he will turn and attack the "remnant" of those who live Jesus. Why "remnant?" Very simple: the rapture took out the main group 3 1/2 years previous.

But now these new saints will be put under tremendous pressure: take the mark, or lose the head.

"Jesus gave us a chronology"   I agree on His chronology. However, I don't believe He was talking about the church. The gathering will be to bring all the descendants of Jacob back to Israel: from heaven and from earth. Always remember, Paul's gathering will gather only from earth.In Rev 7:15.

"We see the multitude that came from 'great tribulation' in heaven"  There is NO WAY John is telling us that these are coming from the days of GT that Jesus spoke of - that will be during the last half of the week. John has not yet even started the week. His meaning is simple: at the time of the rapture, people will be being put to death for their testimony around the world. It is like that in half the world today, and will certainly get worse. Did you not notice that John mentioned "great tribulation" in his letter to one of the churches?  The meaning there can certainly not be the days of GT that Jesus spoke of. Therefore, when we see these two words together: "great tribulation" It does not always mean those days Jesus spoke of. In fact, those two words were not enough for Jesus: He had to add that the will be worse than any other time in the world.

John's chronology stands FIRM as written. Any theory that must rearrange  will be proven wrong.

"Since these are the same group mentioned twice from varying perspective"  No, they are NOT the same group! One group is raptured pretrib (chapter 6 & 7) and NOT beheaded, and the other group are those arriving in heaven one by one as they are beheaded.

There goes your mixed up chronology. You see, there really is no need to rearrange. It makes perfect sense as written.

Question: Can "tribulation" be any greater if one is martyred? They cannot be martyred twice! for those in recent years that have been beheaded, their tribulation was very great indeed.  I think most of them had a choice: become a Muslim or lose their head. They make the right choice! Their days of tribulation was over the moment they were slain.

It's clear you have attained the level of revelation man, more an enemy of the truth than an advocate. And far more interested in personal views than the words of God.

Good day.