Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

Quote

 By the way, there won't be much "peace and safety" after the 6th trumpet judgment when 1/3 of earth's population is wiped out.

And then that infliction stops for 3 and half days as scripture states

  The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth..........(3.5 days later) At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.

This event occurs at the end of the 6th trumpet being the second woe.....at the 7th trumpet (last trumpet) which is confirmed by:

Rev 9:12 The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come.13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet,  being the second woe.

Rev 11 is a parentheses of events of the trumpets....leading up to the 7th trumpet....the 7th trumpet being sudden destruction  and for destroying those who destroy the earth.

I disagree.  "Rev 11 is a parentheses of events of the trumpets"  No, not at all. Remember when John dropped out of his real-time dialog on the seals, between the 6th seal and 7th. I like to use the word "intermission." He STOPPED the real-time of the seals because he cannot break the 7th seal that will officially begin the 70th week unto TWO events are accomplished: the sealing of the 144,000 and then the great crowd too large to number is seen in heaven (in other words, removed from earth before God's wrath is poured out.)

John does the same thing with the trumpets. In chapter 9 he covered the 5th and 6th trumpets. But He cannot get to the 7th until he rearranges the setting. So chapter 10 is an intermission. 11:1 continues the intermission. Because of the time, it is the MIDPOINT intermission. 

11:1-2 the city will be trampled for 42 months. Without any doubt, that time count of 42 months will begin at this verse.

11:3  The two witnesses suddenly appear out of nowhere on the scene. " ³ And I will give power unto my two witnesses "  it appears that John did not see them, but is just writing what the Holy Spirit tells him to write.  It also seems they will appear at this moment in John's narrative. In other words, what ever caused the city to begin being trampled by Gentiles cause these two witnesses to show up. There are only two people in history that did not die physically: Enoch and Elijah. It seems probable that it will be these two. It is only a guess.

However, then John begins a journey down their 1260 days of testifying, right here in chapter 11. It is written as a parenthesis: the chronology is that they SHOW UP and BEGIN their testimony right at the verse of first mentions: 11:3. I am convinced that point in time is 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint. Therefore, their testimony will be ongoing during chapters 12, 13, 14, 15, and finally 16.

Did you notice, there is a severe earthquake when they rise, and there is a severe earthquake at the 7th vial that ends the week? I am convinced they are the same earthquake. Why? the timing fits perfectly: they BEGIN testifying 3 1/2 days before the midpoint: they testify for 1260 days, taking them to just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial. They lay dead for those 3 1/2 days, and then rise up at the 7th vial. I am also convinced that is when ALL the Old Testament saints rise - all that did not rise when Jesus rose.  I know you disagree with this. You are wrong.

"the 7th trumpet being sudden destruction"  Sorry, but again you put two things together that don't fit. Paul's sudden destruction is tied tightly to the dead in Christ rising. The only logical explanation, considering Matthew 27: "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened" is that the dead in Christ rising will CAUSE that sudden destruction and it will be a great, worldwide earthquake. It is NOT the same earthquake as seen at the 7th vial, nor is it the earthquake when the two witnesses rise - which IS the same as the 7th vial.

"And then that infliction stops for 3 and half days as scripture states"  Sorry, the scriptures really don't say that. You only imagine it. It could be - it could not be. You imagine it is sometime during the week, while I am sure it is very near the battle of Armageddon.  The whole atmosphere (feeling of the people) will be very different around the midpoint of the week versus the end of the week.

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

What are you on about, no where did I rearrange events in Rev 12

Ive placed events of Rev 12 belonging to the 5th seal.

Exactly! This is rearranging. You are saying that events written of in chapter 12 actually will happen when the 5th seal is opened. The truth is, events in chapter 12 (outside of verses 1-5) take place at the midpoint of the week, while the events the 5th seal - the martyrs of the church age - will be ongoing right up to seal 6 and END. Any martyr after that will not be a church age martyr. Judgment begins then and the martyrs who died previously will be avenged. The martyrs of the 70th week will not be avenged until the Beast is taken and cast into the lake of fire. 

My point is, there is no need for such rearranging. Leave the events of chapter 12 near the midpoint!  Next, when you say "belonging to" the fifth seal, that really does not fit. These seals are sealing a document that CANNOT be opened until all 7 seals are opened first. The events in chapter 12 are events written INSIDE that document that cannot be read until all 7 seals are opened.  The truth is then, by the time John gets to the 12th chapter, the 5th seal will have LONG AGO been opened.

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

finally I can somewhat agree: after the man of sin is revealed, having entered the temple and declared he is God, then, he will begin to wage war. But chapter 12 is speaking of Satan, not of the man of sin. After the man of sin declares he is God, He will become possessed by Satan, and then what Satan does he will do. Satan goes after the remnant of the woman's seed. But He will use the man of sin turned Beast to do it.

 

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

I'm at a stage now where I must question your sense of reality.

You have denied Christ authority of judging the dead which we are commanded to preach about.

You have denied Christ's own teaching that he comes with his rewards and then AFTER gathers the wicked to be killed in front of Him.

No, you only imagine I have denied Christ's authority. OF COURSE He will judge the dead. Our difference is WHEN this will occur. 

Matthew 16:27

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

 

WHEN is the "then" it is WHEN He comes in His glory. You imagine that coming at the 7th trumpet, but John and the Holy Spirit put it in Rev. 19. The TRUTH is, Rev 19 will come over 3 1/2 years AFTER the 7th trumpet.

 

We both agree on rewards given out, but we disagree on WHEN. I insist, He comes WITH His rewards, so they will not be given out until HE comes.

[Last Daze]

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

the 7th trumpet marks the MIDPOINT.  You can take that to the bank.  Jesus said it, I believe it, and it is settled forever with me.

What the scriptures actually say is this:

• But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.  Revelation 10:7

Not sure how "finished" qualifies as a midpoint.

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

What the scriptures actually say is this:

• But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.  Revelation 10:7

Not sure how "finished" qualifies as a midpoint.

John did not TELL US the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, but you can determine that through study. Compare what Jesus said about fleeing into the wilderness with 12:6 when we see them beginning to flee. 12:6 would be a second or two after the abomination. Give them a second or two for response time. 

Do you have any idea what this mystery is that is finished?

[Diaste]

On 7/19/2017 at 5:56 AM, iamlamad said:

Oh! Now - just because I don't agree with you - I am not even a believer? I was born again when I was 7, baptized in the Holy Spirit when I was 20. I spend time praying every day. I spend time praying for the lost nearly every day. I know Jesus can come any second, and probably will come very soon. I am both expecting His coming and watching for His coming.  Sound doctrine is believing the word of God as written, and IN CONTEXT. There is precious little of that here.  I am here so readers can get a correct viewpoint on scriptures.

Then lets hear you confess Jesus.  Lots of people say they are born again. Not the test, confess Jesus. Buddhists pray. Muslims pray. Satanists pray. Not the test. Might be the wrong Jesus if you aren't careful. Sound doctrine is an understanding of the concepts by the Spirit. Here's where you are; 2 Cor, "6 for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." You think what is written is truth when the Spirit is the life of all scripture. A far different thing than paragraphs and punctuation and word study. "Correct viewpoint"? By whose standard? And in what arena? You are opposed in this in a steadfast manner.

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

John did not TELL US the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, but you can determine that through study. Compare what Jesus said about fleeing into the wilderness with 12:6 when we see them beginning to flee. 12:6 would be a second or two after the abomination. Give them a second or two for response time. 

Do you have any idea what this mystery is that is finished?

Apparently absurdity has no limits.

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, fixerupper said:

It just stikes me odd that the resurrection of the dead and gathering would come at the sound of a Jewish trumpet, a religion that denies the Christ anyway.

Learn something about trumpets Lamad...

A noble effort. Wasted on iamlamad. It's here to deceive weak minds and the new in the faith. 

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The problem is, you are presupposing that Paul's "last trump" must be the last trump in Revelation! Sorry, Revelation was not written when Paul wrote, his letters to the Thessalonians.

It's the same Spirit from "In the beginning" to "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." Jesus gave all the words of prophecy to all the prophets from Moses to John. This is how we know end of the age prophecies are connected and refer to each other. Jesus has lived forever and by His guidance prophecy is given to men. That you don't know this means you are weak in the spirit.

[n2thelight]

555 seals trumps and vials

666

and

777 

happens at the same time

satan comes at 666(revealed)

Christ at 777

Edited July 22, 2017 by n2thelight

[Last Daze]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

John did not TELL US the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, but you can determine that through study. Compare what Jesus said about fleeing into the wilderness with 12:6 when we see them beginning to flee. 12:6 would be a second or two after the abomination. Give them a second or two for response time. 

Do you have any idea what this mystery is that is finished?

Given that the prophets spoke of it and that it is considered a mystery, I think Jesus tells us what it is here:

• And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God."  Mark 4:11a

This is confirmed when the seventh trumpet sounds.  If you want to see what's "finished" at the seventh trumpet, read what happens when the seventh trumpet sounds:

• Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”  Revelation 11:15

The seventh trumpet sounds, Jesus descends to the clouds and blows the trump of God (Zechariah 9:14), the last trumpet.  He establishes the kingdom of God on earth.  The mystery is finished.  The days of restoration begin.  He will reign for ever and ever.  Amen.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

Given that the prophets spoke of it and that it is considered a mystery, I think Jesus tells us what it is here:

• And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God."  Mark 4:11a

This is confirmed when the seventh trumpet sounds.  If you want to see what's "finished" at the seventh trumpet, read what happens when the seventh trumpet sounds:

• Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”  Revelation 11:15

The seventh trumpet sounds, Jesus descends to the clouds and blows the trump of God (Zechariah 9:14), the last trumpet.  He establishes the kingdom of God on earth.  The mystery is finished.  The days of restoration begin.  He will reign for ever and ever.  Amen.

That is a theory: the only problem is, it does not fit scripture. John shows us that He does not come at the 7th trumpet, nor the first vial, nor the 2nd vial, nor the 3rd vial, etc, not until all 7 vials are poured out and the week is finished (the 7th vial) and STILL He has not come. No, not until the events of chapters 17 and 18 happen, and then not until the marriage and supper take place in heaven: THEN and ONLY then do we see His coming.

A theory must fit all end times scriptures. The theory that the 7th trump is Paul's "last trump" is only a theory of human reasoning and it does not fit. 

No, it is not the Mystery Jesus spoke of perhaps in 31 or 32 AD. It was STILL A MYSTERY in 95 AD when John saw the vision. It is still a mystery today for many do not know. We can only guess, because it is not written. But John DID give us a hint: this mystery must have everything to do with the Kingdom's of this world being taken from Satan and given to Jesus Christ. And it must have something to do with Satan being cast down from the heavenly realms.

Sorry, your timing does not fit. Yes, the ownership or rulership of the kingdoms change, but Jesus does not descend at the 7th trumpet.

By the way, WHO sounds the "last trump," who sounds Zechariah 9:14 trumpet, and WHO sounds the 7th trumpet in Revelation?

If an angel sounds, it cannot be the same trumpet our Lord sounds.