Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[warrior12]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

No. I find that when it comes to that one of two things has happened. Ran out of cogent arguments or lost composure.  I sent a private message trying to get him to open up about his obviously sincere frustrations. No reply as of yet. And you have seen my posts, I confront the garbage head on, and I can tell you his adversaries were engaging in a subtle form of mental and emotional abuse.  The problem is I feel his frustration and I'm interested to know the cause. I agree we can have civil discourse, and should, but passions run high and that's not a bad thing.

Now maybe he's just a rotten person with no self control. Could be. But just demanding a certain behavior won't make it stop, or the prisons would be empty.  We should strive to walk with them and understand. Not a lesson the corporate church teaches. I've been there. Control, control, control, and money. That's the modern Christian church.

Has anyone tried to understand his point? Or have we just judged him incorrigible?

There is no reason, absolutely none for a person to use four letter words on this forum.  Go back and see all his posts.  He dislikes christians ect.  Ok, I know tons of people who do also and i also know it is to be expected. But if you are in debate, you cannot throw stones at your opponent, then it is no longer a debate but a ??.   I have seen many threads locked with lesser things he have said and the moderators were lenient on his remarks.  But he kept on doing the same thing over and over.  He is an intelligent person and can make meaningful contributions here, but i think one of his stance is that he thinks his dogmatic views is right and the others contesting or arguing the views are totally wrong.  He gets upset by this and it is his sticking point for his getting out of control with the pen.   

It is not about demanding a certain behavior, but obeying the rules of conduct outlined here.  Did you actually saw what he wrote.  George blotted out the bad language, but it was horrible.  Many people are reading this forum and the rules must be enforced.  This is enough for me on this thread and i think he need to take some time to sort out how he is going to proceed on the forums.  Hope i have not offended you or anyone as it is not my intention. It is to bring to attention that all must observe the rules and if they feel offended , then there are avenues they can take provided here with the Admin staff.      

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, JohnD said:

An old Hindu parable goes like this:

A group of blind men heard that a strange animal, called an elephant, had been brought to the town, but none of them were aware of its shape and form. Out of curiosity, they said: "We must inspect and know it by touch, of which we are capable". So, they sought it out, and when they found it they groped about it. In the case of the first person, whose hand landed on the trunk, said "This being is like a thick snake". For another one whose hand reached its ear, it seemed like a kind of fan. As for another person, whose hand was upon its leg, said, the elephant is a pillar like a tree-trunk. The blind man who placed his hand upon its side said, "elephant is a wall". Another who felt its tail, described it as a rope. The last felt its tusk, stating the elephant is that which is hard, smooth and like a spear.

The interpretations of Bible eschatology are like this.

All three major camps have biblical evidence that would appear to contradict the other two.

This used to puzzle me.

Scripture does not contradict scripture.

Proverbs 30:5, 2 Timothy 3:16, and so on.

The Spirit taught me that it's the interpretation of scripture that was the problem.

Specifically the out of focus way most look at the 70th week of Daniel.

If the 70th week of Daniel is interpreted as one seven-year tribulation then all three major

interpretations conflict.

If the 70th week of years in Daniel 9 is properly interpreted to be

one seven-year tribulation period of TWO tribulationS (3.5 years each)

THEN all three camps agree.

The rapture of the extremely few Christians who survive in hiding to this point will take place:

PRE - Great Tribulation (last 3.5 years)

MID -  70th week of Daniel (the over all 7 year period itself)

POST - Believer's Tribulation (first 3.5 years) ††

†† prophesied in Revelation 3:10, Revelation 12:17 - 13:18 etc. 

Or we can just keep arguing over which part of the elephant we feel.

This theory is also flaky. There is only ONE theory that is truth. Paul knew it and wrote of it. His rapture comes before God's wrath - the wrath that John tells us begins at the 6th seal. So Paul's rapture comes before that.

[n2thelight]

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Why is it you are blind to the choice Luke mentions or Paul mentions?

While those living in darkness get "sudden destruction" those living in the light of the gospel will be raptured and get to live together with Him.  And Luke tells us there is an escape plan.

Why  is it you don't believe what John actually wrote? Is your mother a Jew or Hebrew? If not, you will not be in that 144,000. That is specifically for descendants of Jacob.

What choice did Luke mention?

What's the sudden destruction?

What makes you think those sealed are only Jew's? Knowledge of the truth puts me(you) there.You think just because you are a Jew,you will be sealed?

Let me see if I can break this down

First only Christians can be deceived,as the rest of the world already are.

Once a Christian falls for satan(worship the beast) as Christ, they turn into whores.

Please tell me what's the escape plan.

 

You nor any other rapturist can show me one verse in scripture where Christ returns before the tribulation

 

 

[OldCoot]

And it still needs to factor in how Isaiah (Isa 26), David (Psalm 27), and Zephaniah (Zeph 2) stated that the righteous are hidden from the time of trouble as referenced in Jeremiah 30, which I believe is in view in the 70th week of Daniel, as Daniel makes reference to Jeremiah's writings elsewhere.  Isaiah even ties the resurrection along with this hiding of the righteous, that both are kept from this calamity.   And Jesus himself supported the concept when He stated that we pray that we may be worthy to escape all these things (Luke 21).  That would include "all" including the false messiah's arrival on the scene, which is before the desecration of temple at the mid point.  

And a lot of it centers around how we see the Apostasia of 2 Thes 2.  Either a "falling away" or a "departure".  Good scholars debate that.  I tend to side with those, like Kenneth Wuest, who argue that since there is not a definite article to show what is being departed from, that the word stands on its own as meaning simply a departure, and not a departure from the faith, or falling away.  Only if the passage had shown what is being departed from, the faith for instance, could one aptly translate the word to a general "falling away".  

The only other time that word is used is in Acts 21.  And that context shows a departure from Moses (the Law), so a falling away application in that context would be correct, as there is a definite article (the law) as shown what is being departed from.  We don't have that in 2 Thes 2.

Edited July 28, 2017 by OldCoot

[iamlamad]

8 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

What choice did Luke mention?

What's the sudden destruction?

What makes you think those sealed are only Jew's? Knowledge of the truth puts me(you) there.You think just because you are a Jew,you will be sealed?

Let me see if I can break this down

First only Christians can be deceived,as the rest of the world already are.

Once a Christian falls for satan(worship the beast) as Christ, they turn into whores.

Please tell me what's the escape plan.

You nor any other rapturist can show me one verse in scripture where Christ returns before the tribulation

No one can show you such a verse, because they have been there all the time and your eyes have been blinded to them. Why would you see them now? Are you willing to throw your entire belief system of the end times into file 13 and start over from the beginning with a clean slate?  I doubt it.

Luke 21: ³⁶ Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

What makes me think? Because it is WRITTEN! Why do you not believe what is written? These are NOT spiritual Jews, grafted in: they are physical Jews with Jewish mothers. How do I know this? Because the rapture will take place before this and all spiritual Jews will have been evacuated to heaven. I am NOT  Jew. I will not be there to be sealed. I will be with that great crowd, too large to number.

Please tell me you have been on this forum all these years and still don't know God's escape plan! if you don't know it by now, my guess is, you never will until it has happened and you are left behind.

What is the sudden destruction? Did you not read in Matthew 27: "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened?" When God raises those who have been long dead, that raising will cause an earthquake. Since some of the dead in Christ have been in the grave a long time, and since these graves are worldwide, when God raises the dead, there will be a very serious worldwide earthquake.  That earthquake will be Paul's sudden destruction.  There will be no escape for those left behind, for it will cover the planet: everything will shake.

Now compare this earthquake (and the great crowd seen in heaven soon after) with the 70th week in Revelation: which comes first?

Edited July 28, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

4 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

And it still needs to factor in how Isaiah (Isa 26), David (Psalm 27), and Zephaniah (Zeph 2) stated that the righteous are hidden from the time of trouble as referenced in Jeremiah 30, which I believe is in view in the 70th week of Daniel, as Daniel makes reference to Jeremiah's writings elsewhere.  Isaiah even ties the resurrection along with this hiding of the righteous, that both are kept from this calamity.   And Jesus himself supported the concept when He stated that we pray that we may be worthy to escape all these things (Luke 21).  That would include "all" including the false messiah's arrival on the scene, which is before the desecration of temple at the mid point.  

And a lot of it centers around how we see the Apostasia of 2 Thes 2.  Either a "falling away" or a "departure".  Good scholars debate that.  I tend to side with those, like Kenneth Wuest, who argue that since there is not a definite article to show what is being departed from, that the word stands on its own as meaning simply a departure, and not a departure from the faith, or falling away.  Only if the passage had shown what is being departed from, the faith for instance, could one aptly translate the word to a general "falling away".  

The only other time that word is used is in Acts 21.  And that context shows a departure from Moses (the Law), so a falling away application in that context would be correct, as there is a definite article (the law) as shown what is being departed from.  We don't have that in 2 Thes 2.

Add to this, when one examines this compound Greek Word, the first part is "Apo" which according to Strong's means a part of the whole removed spatially from the entire whole and it done so fast it is as if those left behind are left standing still (the second part of the compound word).

[OldCoot]

Strong's is neat, but hardly a definitive work on the nuances of the Greek.  I use Strong's a lot, but also use Young's.  And even with that, I look at word studies done by Greek scholars.  We can sit and parse things all to death, but one should really look at how experts in the languages argue differences in the word usage.

How do you see the passages I referenced as they pertain to this?

Edited July 28, 2017 by OldCoot

[n2thelight]

God's escape plan is His Word.

John 16:33 "These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

 

 

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

What are u on about? The only one that thinks  you make sense, is you.

Of course the entire day of the Lord is the wrath of God. This is not profound insight. Students of the end of the age have know this since Paul taught as much in the mid 1st century.

This is your problem, you think EVERYTHING you think concerning the end of the age is profound insight, when it's either common knowledge or some skit you conjured on your Fantasy Island, allowing for the rare exception where you do speak the truth...

Rev 8:7-8 are not day of the Lord verses unless there is verbiage attesting this, and there is not. You have no idea if the calamity of 8:7-8 reach the level of the cruel, evil day that is the Lord's wrath. It is likely they do not as the wrath of God is described in detail in the vials, and is far more intense and brutal than Rev 8:7-8, and for the most part targets people directly, where 8:7-8 targets the earth. Very different. 

Matt 24 refutes your erroneous assertion of the concurrency of trib and wrath. The order is as follows: beginning of sorrows, A of D, great trib, the 2nd coming, gathering of the elect, and the wrath of God.  In that order and only in that order, as Jesus taught. All the seals are opened and all the trumpets blown by the time of the gathering and the 2nd coming. Only the vials are left to be poured out finishing the wrath, man's rule, and bringing the age to a close. 

So if the entire day of the Lord is wrath, why don't you believe John when He tells you it starts at the 6th seal? After all, they saw the earthquake, and Isaiah 2 tells us this earthquake is the start of the day. They saw the signs in the sun and moon, and Joel tells them it is the start of the Day. So we have two witnesses plus John TELLING us it is the start of the Day.  Yet you ignore the obvious because it does not fit your theory.

I have a novel idea: why don't you dump your theory that does not fit, and come up with one the does fit.

Rev 8:7-8: You are just showing us your lack of knowledge of the word of God. Go back and read Joel 1, where he prophecies of the grass being burned up, and tells us it is the DAY.

Joel 1:

¹⁵ Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

...

¹⁸ How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.

¹⁹ O Lord, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field.

Rev. 8: ⁷ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Go back and read Isaiah 2, which John quotes almost word for word about people going into the holes in the rocks and crying for the rocks to fall on them. There can be no doubt, the 6th seal is the fulfillment of that prophecy of Isaiah 2.

Isaiah 2:¹² For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

¹⁹ And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Rev 6: ¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake;

Rev. 6:¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come

 

[iamlamad]

7 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Strong's is neat, but hardly a definitive work on the nuances of the Greek.  I use Strong's a lot, but also use Young's.  And even with that, I look at word studies done by Greek scholars.  We can sit and parse things all to death, but one should really look at how experts in the languages argue differences in the word usage.

How do you see the passages I referenced as they pertain to this?

I think Strong's knew the meaning of the Greek "apo." Without a doubt when one considers the entire passage, Paul was talking of the departing of the church at the rapture. It can be nothing else. After all, it is what allows the man of sin to be revealed, for in verse 3b he IS revealed.