What is the difference in the rapture and the second coming?

[Sister]

terese

Here are 2 definitions I quickly found on the internet.

 

Gematria /ɡəˈmeɪ.tri.ə/ is an Assyro-Babylonian system of numerology later adopted by Jews that assigns numerical value to a word or phrase in the belief that words or phrases with identical numerical values bear some relation to each other or bear some relation to the number itself as it may apply to a person's age, the calendar year, or the like. The best-known example of Gematria is the Hebrew word Chai ("alive"), which is composed of two letters that (using the assignments in the Mispar gadol table shown below) add up to 18. This has made 18 a "lucky number" among Jews, and gifts in multiples of 18 are very popular.^[1]

 

  gematria - definition of gematria in English from the Oxford ...

A Kabbalistic method of interpreting the Hebrew scriptures by computing the numerical value of words, based on those of their constituent letters.

 

 

Does this sound like something that comes from God or from Babylon?  Check it's roots and be honest with yourself.

It may appear ok on the outside because it concentrates on the bible trying to portray it's authenticity, but it's a trap because the practice is not the way we are taught to seek the Word of God for truth.  I have tested this system in the past and found it does not match the interpretation of some prophecies when compared. Even if one interpretation goes out, it cannot be reliable.

 

1 Corinthians 10:21   Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

1 Timothy 4:1   Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

[thereselittleflower]

terese

Here are 2 definitions I quickly found on the internet.

 

Gematria /ɡəˈmeɪ.tri.ə/ is an Assyro-Babylonian system of numerology later adopted by Jews that assigns numerical value to a word or phrase in the belief that words or phrases with identical numerical values bear some relation to each other or bear some relation to the number itself as it may apply to a person's age, the calendar year, or the like. The best-known example of Gematria is the Hebrew word Chai ("alive"), which is composed of two letters that (using the assignments in the Mispar gadol table shown below) add up to 18. This has made 18 a "lucky number" among Jews, and gifts in multiples of 18 are very popular.^[1]

 

  gematria - definition of gematria in English from the Oxford ...

A Kabbalistic method of interpreting the Hebrew scriptures by computing the numerical value of words, based on those of their constituent letters.

 

 

Does this sound like something that comes from God or from Babylon?  Check it's roots and be honest with yourself.

It may appear ok on the outside because it concentrates on the bible trying to portray it's authenticity, but it's a trap because the practice is not the way we are taught to seek the Word of God for truth.  I have tested this system in the past and found it does not match the interpretation of some prophecies when compared. Even if one interpretation goes out, it cannot be reliable.

 

1 Corinthians 10:21   Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

1 Timothy 4:1   Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

 

 

 

Again, should we stop praying because satanists pray?

 

I provided a definition of biblical numerology.   If the word numerology doesn't sit well, then call it something else.   But it's not a legitimate approach to use a superficial similarity to denounce something because of how similar it appears to something else on the surface.

 

Ralph Woodrow expounded on this quite well.   I don't know if you know who he is, or what happened  to his work BABYLON MYSTERY RELIGION, or if you are familiar with it's predecessor Alexander Hislop's The Two Bablyons, but this, in and of itself, is a study in exactly what I am saying.     

 

Alexander Hislop was considered to be a pre-eminent scholar of the highest repute.   His tome, The Two Babylons, written in the 1800's, affected how many protestants viewed Catholicism as pagan for over 100 years. It was deemed of high scholarly repute;  it was heavily footnoted, every claim was locked down tight.     Ralph Woodrow, almost 100 years later,  became the worlds foremost contemporary authority on this work and the so-called paganization of chrsitianity.  He wrote a modern version called  "Bablyon Mystery Religion."   This book was published in many languages around the world,and people easily confused his work with that of Al Hislops.

 

Then something happened.

 

His friends, historian scholars and experts, read his work and told him there were many points of error.   He at first didn't believe them.   But his desire for truth won out over his need to be right, and so he did the most amazing thing.   He painstakingly researched everyone of Al Hislops sources to their source, which was quite difficult and costly.

 

As a result of this new research, he did the honorable thing.  He pulled his book "Babylon Mystery Religion" off the shelves because it was flawed and full of error at a most basic level.  This was at great financial cost to himself.  Only someone of high integrity and honesty would do something of this nature.

 

He explains why he did this, and what the most fundamental flaw was in his work and in Al Hislop's  here:

 

 

Building on similarities while ignoring differences is an unsound practice. Atheists have long used this method in an attempt to discredit Christianity altogether, citing examples of pagans who had similar beliefs about universal floods, slain and risen saviors, virgin mothers, heavenly ascensions, holy books, and so on.

As Christians, we don’t reject prayer just because pagans pray to their gods. We don’t reject water baptism just because ancient tribes plunged into water as a religious ritual. We don’t reject the Bible just because pagans believe their writings are holy or sacred.

The Bible mentions things like kneeling in prayer, raising hands, taking off shoes on holy ground, a holy mountain, a holy place in the temple, pillars in front of the temple, offering sacrifices without blemish, a sacred ark, cities of refuge, bringing forth water from a rock, laws written on stone, fire appearing on a person’s head, horses of fire, and the offering of first fruits. Yet, at one time or another, similar things were known among pagans. Does this make the Bible pagan? Of course not!

If finding a pagan parallel provides proof of paganism, the Lord Himself would be pagan. The woman called Mystery Babylon had a cup in her hand; the Lord has a cup in His hand (Ps. 75:8). Pagan kings sat on thrones and wore crowns; the Lord sits on a throne and wears a crown (Rev. 1:4; 14:14). Pagans worshiped the sun; the Lord is the “Sun of righteousness” (Mal. 4:2). Pagan gods were likened to stars; the Lord is called “the bright and Morning star” (Rev. 22:16). Pagan gods had temples dedicated to them; the Lord has a temple (Rev. 7:15). Pagans built a high tower in Babylon; the Lord is a high tower (2 Sam. 22:3). Pagans worshiped idolatrous pillars; the Lord appeared as a pillar of fire (Exod. 13: 21–22). Pagan gods were pictured with wings; the Lord is pictured with wings (Ps. 91:4)

I realized that citing a similarity does not provide proof. There must be a legitimate connection. 

Because Hislop wrote in the mid-1800s, the books he refers to or quotes are now quite old. I made considerable effort to find these old books and to check Hislop’s references; books such as Layard’s Nineveh and Its Remains, Kitto’s Cyclopedia of Biblical Literature, Wilkinson’sAncient Egyptians, as well as old editions of Pausanias, Pliny, Tacitus, Herodotus, and many more. When I checked his footnote references, in numerous cases I discovered they do not support his claims.

Hislop says, for example, that the “round” wafer used in the Roman Catholic mass came from Egyptian paganism. For this he cites a statement in Wilkinson’s Ancient Egyptians (vol. 5, 353, 365) about the use of thin round cakes on their altars. When I checked Wilkinson’s work, however, he also said the Egyptians used oval and triangular cakes; folded cakes; cakes shaped like leaves, animals, and a crocodile’s head; and so on. Hislop failed to even mention this.

While condemning round communion wafers as images of the sun-god Baal, Hislop fails to mention that the very manna given by the Lord was round. “Upon the face of the wilderness there lay a small round thing….And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the Lord hath given you to eat” (Exod. 16:14–15, KJV, emphasis added). Round is not necessarily pagan.

 

much more here:

 

http://www.equip.org/article/the-two-babylons/

 

 

 

This illustrates the point I am making.  Similarity =/= sameness.  There must be a legitimate connection.

 

 

In regards to this discussion about biblical numerology here,  what are we supposed to do with the number 666 if not to find meaning in the numbers?

 

One approach is to look at the meaning of numbers -   we have 6  3 times.  6 is considered the number of man,  3 the number of God, the Trinity.    666 would then be man making himself God.

[Serving]

Hi Therese,

 

 

Well, here is how I see it.  Just because words and approaches are used both by christians and occult practices doesn't make them equal.

 

 

 

If a follower of Christ is using a words = numbers = answer  approach to the scriptures then "how you see it" is indeed making them equal, for it is their method .. so "how I see it" needs be replaced with "how Christ see's it" instead. 

 

 

For instance, look at the word prayer -   Christians pray, satanists pray - does that make prayer used by christians evil?  No, of course not.   It is how prayer is put to use that determines its rightness or wrongness.

 

Therese .. please.

 

We are speaking about your process of words = numbers = answer here, linguistics has nothing to do with it .. the above is totally unrelated to gammatria .. please stay on subject.

 

 

The bible tells us in the OT:

 

Exodus 20:4

You shall not make to you any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

 

Does this mean that statues are forbidden?

 

We are not speaking about graven images, we are speaking about occult based gammatria.

 

 

When it comes to numbers, what do you do with the number 666?

 

I already gave you the answer to this.

 

 

When we look at the book of Revelation it says this:

 

Revelation 13:18

Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.

 

We are given a number; we are told its meaning requires wisdom and understanding; that the number is that of a man, and if we have wisdom and understanding, to calculate the number, and his number is 666.

 

Personally, what do you do with that number?

 

Stay away from occultist methods firstly.

 

How about using simple MATH since it is to do with counting the number (of LETTERS) of his name.

 

6 letters in his first name, 6 letters in his middle name  & 6 letters in his last name .. simple. 

 

BTW .. I was WRONG about the inventor of the barcode having 6 letters in each name which I used as an example .. which a friend told me once .. goes to show, always check what people say

 

Anyway, when that man comes, if he has 6 letters in each of his names, and I was right in this context we debate .. well .. so what? It is WHAT HE DOES AND SAYS that reveals him .. having that scripture will be added BONUS to expound to those we warn that, "look, this man ALSO has 6 letters in each of his names, look, it even says it here in the scriptures" .. that will be much more powerful thatn saying, "look, 666 = ultimate evil or some such nonsense which will be of absolute zero worth when the time comes BECAUSE people won't SEE him as evil .. didn't you read about his marvellous words that IF it were possible, could deceive even the very ELECT .. IF it were possible that is.

 

See the uselessness of it all?

 

It bears NO fruit this gammatria except of the rotten kind.

 

Please, the occult tricked you once before .. don't go from one slave master to another, Go to the source, The Lord's written Word .. His word will set you free .. and His word is sufficient & His word is enough.  

 

Than you Therese.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Serving]

Excuse me Therese ..

 

When we look at the book of Revelation it says this:

 

Revelation 13:18

Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.

 

We are given a number; we are told its meaning requires wisdom and understanding; that the number is that of a man, and if we have wisdom and understanding, to calculate the number, and his number is 666.

 

 

Sorry but that is not what we are told at all.

 

We are only told to calculate (ADD UP) the NUMBER of his NAME not to "imagine" the meaning of it ..  and as I said, the only PROCESS available to Christians (to whom this statement is DIRECTED) for to work this out with .. is plain old simple non occultist MATH.

 

I know it is not as fancy or mysterious or "initiated" as gammatria appears to be to some, but it is the only non occultist method by which Christians are ALLOWED to count by and is available to us.

 

6 letters in the first name, 6 letters in the middle name, 6 letters in the last name .. what is so alien about that simple method?

 

Is it the simplicity?

 

Have you ever heard scripture declare, "the simplicity that is in Christ"

 

Therese, complexity alone doesn't trump correctness, think about that please.

 

Thanks T.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Serving

[Guest shiloh357]

Biblical numerology is occultic.   There is no "biblical numerology."   There are a lot of Christians and Christian groups that promote biblical numerology and they are wrong.  It's really no different well known Christian teachers that promote not only numerology but also "biblical astrology"  where they try to attach biblical meaning to the constellations.

 

They are just two  subtle ways that Satan brings his wickedness into the church and leads naïve believers astray.  

[Kan]

The number systems in the Bible are real and tangible - not esoteric and hidden like numerology.

 

The Bible calls God the "wonderful numberer" He makes the stars by number, every star has a name. And if you are familiar with the Bible, you will find that it is filled with numbers, on several different levels, the language values, the actual text numbers, the number of books, the numerical values of names, etc. People have discovered this and written books on it, but they are not to be confused with the works of the devil like the Da Vinci code etc.

 

The systems and quite miraculous interconnections of numbers in the Bible exceed the capacity of modern computers to calculate.

 

Do a simple experiment. Say for example the 7 thunders in Revelation 10. Look for thunders in the whole book of Revelation and count them.

Count the number of times any significant word appears in any book or passage or subject in the Bible. You'll be surprised how consistently 3, 5, 7, 10, 11, 14, 21, 22, 40, etc come up. And how that particular number comes up in other passages on the same subject. etc. If you have an ability to recognize patterns, all the better, but even a child can do it.

 

Whereas the occult does not allow one to have access or recognition unless they are initiated into their own system of numerology.

 

The one system is like Christ - simple, profound, open and honest, the other is complex, hidden, devious and anti-God. 

[Guest shiloh357]

Symbolic use of numbers in the Bible is not numerology.  There may be a numeric symmetry in certain passages, but there is no numerology.

[Psalms37:4]

What is the difference in the rapture and the second coming?

 

Two very different scenarios. Just before the rapture, people will be doing normal daily routines, business as usual activities: celebrating, feasting, partying etc, (Matthew 24:37-39)

 

Matthew 24:37-42 New King James Version (NKJV)

³⁷ But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. ³⁸ For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, ³⁹ and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. ⁴⁰ Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. ⁴¹ Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. ⁴² Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

 

Matthew 24:37-42 New Living Translation (NLT)

³⁷ “When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah’s day. ³⁸ In those days before the flood, the people were enjoying banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat.³⁹ People didn’t realize what was going to happen until the flood came and swept them all away. That is the way it will be when the Son of Man comes.

⁴⁰ “Two men will be working together in the field; one will be taken, the other left. ⁴¹ Two women will be grinding flour at the mill; one will be taken, the other left.

⁴² “So you, too, must keep watch! For you don’t know what day your Lord is coming.

 

 

At the second coming, people are so terrified of the things happening on earth, they will literally have heart attacks, (Luke 21:25-27).

 

Luke 21:25-27 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁵ “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; ²⁶ men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ²⁷ Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

 

Luke 21:25-27 New Century Version (NCV)

²⁵ “There will be signs in the sun, moon, and stars. On earth, nations will be afraid and confused because of the roar and fury of the sea. ²⁶ People will be so afraid they will faint, wondering what is happening to the world, because the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ²⁷ Then people will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Retrobyter]

On 7/21/2015 at 1:37 PM, Serving said:

...
6 letters in the first name, 6 letters in the middle name, 6 letters in the last name .. what is so alien about that simple method?

Shalom, Serving.

Sorry, Serving, but that is a bit too simplistic. That is NOT what the Scriptures say:

Revelation 13:18
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
KJV

Here it is in the Greek:

Apokalupsis Iooannou 13:18
18 Hoode hee sofia estin. Ho echoon noun pfeefisatoo ton arithmon tou theeriou, arithmos gar anthroopou estin, kai ho arithmos autou hexakosioi hexeekonta hex.
UBS Greek New Testament

Therefore, it's not three sixes, "6, 6, and 6." It's "6 x 100 + 6 x 10 + 6." Do you see the difference?