Church leaders and theological and seminary training

[Marilyn C]

Hi Openly Curious,

 

That`s great that we understand that.

 

Blessings, Marilyn.

[Guest shiloh357]

Unless someone has started a cult, I don't know of any church that is "lording" itself over the members.  I do know churches, like mine that do not just let anyone teach unless they have been there proven that they have the calling an gift of teaching and are sound in doctrine. That does offend people, sometimes, but it keeps weirdoes from getting a foothold in our congregation.

 

Jesus never told us to meet on Sundays, or celebrate Easter or keep Christmas or honor his birth at all.   But we do.  All of those things originate with man and not God, but no one (expect aforementioned weirdoes) condemn those things as ungodly or whatever.

 

Church buildings and churches are not sinful nor are they displeasing to God.  You have a few  who presume to sit in judgment on people and act like everyone who doesn't do church the way they do are less spiritual than they are.  This whole notion that it is somehow violating Scripture to meet in a local church and to do church in a building, really is a form of legalism and is also a man's teaching.  God did not prescribe a particular model and to say that one model is less spiritual than another model is really purely judgmental. 

[Openly Curious]

Any church in the U.S. who has applied for a 501c3 non-profit status and received one for their church in order that any that donate money to their organization (church) can declare it as a tax deduction. Are also required by the laws of the land that each said church has to have a set of by-laws that govern that local body. Usually the church members never ever see or have the knowledge of the by-laws of the church they attend as they are hidden. Usually hidden by the three people in which is required by the state they are in being a president, a vice president and a treasurer. Three people who will take these required positions in order to apply for a non-profit organization. And many of the independent churches and the bogus (sham) churches out there are run by these three people as they see fit to run the church they started.

Most denominational churches have put their by-laws in the form of what is called a church maunal. Most of the time you personally have to ask in order to receive a copy of their manuals even after becoming a member. The manual tells their rules on how the election of deacons are selected by a vote it tells the ordinances of the church which the members much comply to, it tells how the members are to conduct themselves in many many different ways if they want to be a member in good standings within that church. I have several of these manuals on my book shelf and their by-laws in how to govern their church and it is not in line with the biblical order especially in line with the election of church leaders or personal conduct.

I am not opposed at all to churches that are organized and who don't let any old weirdo in their pulpits or turn the church service over to anyone who feels like they got something to say because there are bad people who come into churches for the sole purpose of causeing havoc and being unruly and taking over the service who are out of order. I am for order but alot of the churches are so far from the order and instructions found in the pages of God Word in how to conduct the "business" of our Lord Jesus Christ and the fulfilling of the Great Commission. Those who God calls he gifts and equips for ministry and he uses his saints in order to fulfill that task to the called according to His purpose and not by the purposes of man. Nor is it God's design that the man made rules that are required by law for a church to have in order to govern that local church body called by-laws (found in the church manuals if your church has one) for the tax exempt status in the 501c3 non-profit category.

[Marilyn C]

Very well said Openly Curious.

 

Now Shiloh,

 

The heirarchical system that is in place in all man`s organisations is man`s way of functioning & not God`s. Paul clearly shows us how leaders are to operate -

 

`...we were gentle among you, just as a nursing mother cherishes her own children....as you know how we exhorted, & comforted, & charged every one of you, as a father does his own children.` (1 Thess. 2: 7 - 11)

 

This is relational & personal. It speaks of the very heart of Christ out to the believers that Paul has personally brought to Christ & is now discipling them to maturity. Public meetings come & go, but true relationships in the Lord, encourage, exhort & build up to maturity.

 

Marilyn. 

[Guest shiloh357]

Just because our traditional church model is "man's organization," as you call it, doesn't make it wrong or sinful.  You may not like it and prefer something different, but the traditional church model is not wrong and doesn't violate Scripture or cause violence to any doctrine.  

[Littlelambseativy]

Very well said Openly Curious.

Now Shiloh,

The heirarchical system that is in place in all man`s organisations is man`s way of functioning & not God`s. Paul clearly shows us how leaders are to operate -

`...we were gentle among you, just as a nursing mother cherishes her own children....as you know how we exhorted, & comforted, & charged every one of you, as a father does his own children.` (1 Thess. 2: 7 - 11)

This is relational & personal. It speaks of the very heart of Christ out to the believers that Paul has personally brought to Christ & is now discipling them to maturity. Public meetings come & go, but true relationships in the Lord, encourage, exhort & build up to maturity.

Marilyn.

1 Timothy 3 is pretty legalistic and hierarchical in that it gives the format and requirements for organizing a church and the requirements for positions.

I do find it curious that some have such set standard... If you will, that unless one adheres to their way of thinking or doing things those who see it differently are wrong. We all serve one God, if we are born again, our head is Jesus, but if we choose not to raise hands we are wrong by those who do. If we choose to meet in a church building with a minister, elders and deacons we are wrong by those who oppose that format if we use an organ instead of drums, tambourines and trumpets, we are wrong.

Does God look at HOWwe worship Him or that we are saved by His grace through the blood of His Son's sacrifice? I believe it is the heart that God looks at and what we have done with Jesus.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Littlelambeativy,

 

You are right, 1 Tim. 3 is a good scripture to look at -

 

`blameless, temperate, soberminded, good behaviour, hospitable, able to teach, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having children in submission with all reverence, good testimony to outsiders, reverent, etc`

 

Notice they are all character traits. All in relation to God, family & others. Nothing to do with being connected to the world`s system. God`s people meet in many ways, & in many places all over the world. The common requirements though are character ones, which you have pointed out to us. Thank you, for that really is the heart of the matter.

 

 

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

Just because our traditional church model is "man's organization," as you call it, doesn't make it wrong or sinful.  You may not like it and prefer something different, but the traditional church model is not wrong and doesn't violate Scripture or cause violence to any doctrine.

Hi Shiloh357,

 

I am not against any particular model of how people desire to come together to worship, prayer, learn from God`s word & fellowship. What I am pointing out is that when any organisation becomes connected to the world`s system then the basis of that structure is man`s legal requirements. And as you well know there are many that have already caved in to accepting all sorts of wrong (scripturally wrong) behaviour. Time will tell what each work is based on.

 

Marilyn. 

[Guest shiloh357]

Who has connected to the world's system??  Who are you talking about?  

[Marilyn C]

Hi Shiloh357,

 

Great question. Give me time as I`m busy for the next couple of days.

 

Marilyn.