what is the way.. for who died without hearing gospel.

[enoob57]

It seemed a shame that just about every thread had been hijacked and turned into discussion about rcc teachings but things were said that led me to take another look at the scriptures.  

I sought to understand better the truth about Mary and to my amazement saw the scriptures declaring with utmost certainty that Mary was nothing more than another sinner who needed a Savior.  The read brought to light and set in order many scriptures that I had formerly had no second thought of.

Thank you for trying to shove that false rcc doctrine down my throat for I have been delivered from the last bit of doubt that I had of who and what Mary was and is.  

Who do I say Mary is?  Another sinner who needed a savior that I absolutely expect to see in the ressurection.  She will be as humble then as she became through her conversion experience while she was here on earth.

gdemoss, I agree that it is a shame that certain members seem to make an issue of attacking the Catholic Church and Cathoilcs.

I am sorry you aren't understanding the scriptures properly regarding Mary.    Reading the scriptures divorced from the culture, time, language  etc will yield results other than that intended by the authors.

Your words make me cringe for you and I am thankful that Christ is patient.

 

If you want to understand who Mary is, then seek to understand Kecharitomene, for this is who she is,  she is Kecharitomene.

 

 

 

I know by this Scripture the elevation of Mary is influenced by other than The Spirit of Christ:
Matt 12:48-50
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
KJV

[Qnts2]

@ Qnts2 

All I gave you was a quote from Mirriam Webster dictionary which defines the word, necromancy. And I noted that necromancy falls under witchcraft. So, from your post, it appears that you do not accept the definition given by Mirriam Webster. I consider Mirriam Webster an excellent dictionary and therefore believe you don't know what necromancy means as your definition is incorrect.

If you think that the definition of necromancy from Mirriam Websters dictionary matches what occurs in the RCC, then you, yourself have accused the RCC of practicing necromancy.

The link to Mirriam Websters definition for necromancy:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/necromancy

Im glad you posted this,

Scripture gives us a perfect example of consulting the died.

1 Samuel 28:8

So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name."

Now as scripture goes we have Saul, speaking with a medium to bring up Samuel

"Bring up Samuel for me." 12When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, "Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul.

Now did this woman really conjure up Samuel? The answer is no...we know from scriptures the dead are unconscious and can not be summoned back to some form of living even in a spiritual sate in order for them to be conscious to communicate with. further we are told God has cut of all forms of communication from Saul including prophecy.

Since no one can conjure up a human being from unconscious to conscious, what this woman and Saul achieved was the summon of a demonic spirit.

Remember at this time no one has being raised to heaven, no one from the OT right up to the resurrection of Christ and the resurrection of the firstfruits has been raised to heaven and this has been the problem with this debate you guys are stuck in an Old Testament mindset.

The Old Covenant People of God did not have the developed understanding of the afterlife that only came with and through the Revelation of Christ.

This is why you now only see from Peter who said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah."…

Now why does Peter who is commanded from not communicating with the dead, does he offer tents to Moses and Elijah who are dead?

Now it appears those on the side of not communicating with the died seem not to be cognizant of the rammifications of Peter wanting to offer tents to Moses and Elijah. If Jesus initiated communication with the dead, there is no reason to believe followers of Jesus cannot do the same as its clearly demonstrated Peter wished to offer tents to Moses and Elijah. 

Saints are no longer dead but alive

 

 

 

Let's start with the term saints. Saints are all people who are born again. When Jesus spoke to Moses and Elijah, they were on the earth. 

While true saints are spiritually alive in heaven, their bodies are dead and buried. Therefore, for those on earth, a person who no longer has the breath of life and no beating heart, has died and is dead. While we are in our bodies on earth, it is forbidden to speak to or conjure those who are physically dead. 

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

From Acts 24:15 it should be very clear that if there is a resurrection of the dead, that those who are just and in heaven are considered dead and will be resurrected.

To pray to the dead, which would be those who are just and in heaven, asking for assistance to change something on earth is necromancy.

 

[Qnts2]

Necromancy - conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events

Necromancy falls under witch craft or sorcery. To my knowledge, those who pray to the dead are doing so in hope to influence the course of events by appealing to the dead to influence the course of events.

 

Then what am I doing when I ask you to pray for me?   Practicing necromancy?

 

Do you even have any idea what necromancy is?

I knew a necromancer.    He was a bonifide sociopath.   I have never seen anyone so able to pinpoint people's weaknesses and mainpulate them with just a few words passing between them.   

He explained the different types of necromancy to me and a friend.  We were sitting there thinking what is going on here?  We listened to better understand what we were dealing with.    

What you are ignoring here is that the practice of necromancy is one of summoning the dead and putting them under your control so they are forced to do the necromancer's bidding.  It requires going to graveyards, digging up the bones of the dead and using these through occultic means to summon and force your control on one who is dead.

Do you really accuse Catholics of going to graveyards, digging up graves, and using the bones of the dead to summon them to appear before them and bind the dead so summoned to their control to do their bidding?

 

If you think that is what Catholics, Orthodox, Coptics and many protestants do, I am sorry, but you are soooo far off the mark.  

 

The scriptures forbid necromancy.

The scriptures forbid summoning and controlling the dead to foretell and control future events.

 

Asking the Saints in heaven to pray for us is no different than asking  you to pray for me.     If asking the Saints in heaven to pray for me means I am controlling them and forcing them to do my bidding, when all I am doing is asking them to pray to God for me, then the same must be true when I ask you to pray for me, for when I ask you to pray for me am I not appealing to you to pray to influence the course of events?

 

Please, take time to think about what you are saying and all of its implications.   You are completely negating the power of prayer with your claims, for if we are not allowed to influence the course of events through prayer, then what is the point of praying for others at all?  What is the point of asking others to pray for us?

 

The Saints in heaven are not dead.  

•  Matthew 22:32
• I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

 

Why do you say they are dead?  Is God now no longer the God of the living but of the dead?   Why do you make the words of Christ here of no effect?  Why do you contradict your Lord God?

 

 

They are very much alive.   

 

When one asks a Saint in heaven to pray for them, they are requesting prayers from the living.

 

 

 

All I gave you was a quote from Mirriam Webster dictionary which defines the word, necromancy. And I noted that necromancy falls under witchcraft. So, from your post, it appears that you do not accept the definition given by Mirriam Webster. I consider Mirriam Webster an excellent dictionary and therefore believe you don't know what necromancy means as your definition is incorrect.

If you think that the definition of necromancy from Mirriam Websters dictionary matches what occurs in the RCC, then you, yourself have accused the RCC of practicing necromancy.

The link to Mirriam Websters definition for necromancy:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/necromancy

 

 

Did you bother to read my post?

 

 

Yes, my post was about necromancy. You do not understand what necromancy is, and since you disagreed with the definition from Miriam Webster dictionary, you are obviously wrong about necromancy. The rest of your post is not applicable to the discussion about necromancy.

[AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken]

Really? What does necromancy have to do with the OP? 

Please start your own topics and stop hijacking all the others.

Or just ignore me, as usual, LOL.

Love you all!

 

 

[thereselittleflower]

It seemed a shame that just about every thread had been hijacked and turned into discussion about rcc teachings but things were said that led me to take another look at the scriptures.  

I sought to understand better the truth about Mary and to my amazement saw the scriptures declaring with utmost certainty that Mary was nothing more than another sinner who needed a Savior.  The read brought to light and set in order many scriptures that I had formerly had no second thought of.

Thank you for trying to shove that false rcc doctrine down my throat for I have been delivered from the last bit of doubt that I had of who and what Mary was and is.  

Who do I say Mary is?  Another sinner who needed a savior that I absolutely expect to see in the ressurection.  She will be as humble then as she became through her conversion experience while she was here on earth.

 

gdemoss, I agree that it is a shame that certain members seem to make an issue of attacking the Catholic Church and Cathoilcs.

I am sorry you aren't understanding the scriptures properly regarding Mary.    Reading the scriptures divorced from the culture, time, language  etc will yield results other than that intended by the authors.

Your words make me cringe for you and I am thankful that Christ is patient.

 

If you want to understand who Mary is, then seek to understand Kecharitomene, for this is who she is,  she is Kecharitomene.

 

 

 

I know by this Scripture the elevation of Mary is influenced by other than The Spirit of Christ:
Matt 12:48-50
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
KJV

 

The error here is interpreting this scripture passage according to what it would mean to us today if someone said this.

But when this passage was written can anyone honestly say it meant the same thing it appears on the surface to mean to us 2000 years later in a culture and language completely divorced from the one in which it was written?   If we  approach scripture this way then we are going to come away with many errors in understanding.  Scriptures were not written in modern English with a modern society and culture in mind.    

It seems to me you would have this as evidence that Jesus disregarded his mother, and thus held her in low regard by these words.

This would thus have Jesus breaking God's law by dishonoring his own mother.  This would mean Jesus sinned.  This would mean Jesus could not be our savior for he would not be the spotless lamb.

Since Jesus did not break God's law, he then did not dishonor his mother by demoting her in any way.

 

Something is obviously wrong with such an understanding of this passage of scripture for it pits scripture against scripture had has Jesus sinning.

 

Look at the last verse you quoted:

50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

 

Who more perfectly did the will of the Father other than Mary his mother?

 

He is not disregarding his mother.   He is not treating her as less than his disciples or even on par with his disciples.  He is holding her up as an example to follow, for here he is saying Mary is his mother TWICE over - not only because she is his mother by birth, but also she is his mother by obedience and submission to God the Father.

Only Mary can hold that place of doubly being his mother.  And it would not have been lost on the crowd that Jesus was indeed elevating his mother as one who was both his natural mother and his spiritual mother.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2015 by thereselittleflower

[hmbld]

How can God have a spiritual mother?  

It is good to examine what one has been taught to see if it agrees with scripture. 

[AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken]

So, anyway...

I was talking to someone who told me that ducks are WAY better than geese.

Opinions?

[Guest Teditis]

Ducks taste better than geese, imo... but geese make good "watchdogs" and lay bigger eggs.

[thereselittleflower]

@ Qnts2 

All I gave you was a quote from Mirriam Webster dictionary which defines the word, necromancy. And I noted that necromancy falls under witchcraft. So, from your post, it appears that you do not accept the definition given by Mirriam Webster. I consider Mirriam Webster an excellent dictionary and therefore believe you don't know what necromancy means as your definition is incorrect.

If you think that the definition of necromancy from Mirriam Websters dictionary matches what occurs in the RCC, then you, yourself have accused the RCC of practicing necromancy.

The link to Mirriam Websters definition for necromancy:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/necromancy

Im glad you posted this,

Scripture gives us a perfect example of consulting the died.

1 Samuel 28:8

So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name."

Now as scripture goes we have Saul, speaking with a medium to bring up Samuel

"Bring up Samuel for me." 12When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, "Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul.

Now did this woman really conjure up Samuel? The answer is no...we know from scriptures the dead are unconscious and can not be summoned back to some form of living even in a spiritual sate in order for them to be conscious to communicate with. further we are told God has cut of all forms of communication from Saul including prophecy.

Since no one can conjure up a human being from unconscious to conscious, what this woman and Saul achieved was the summon of a demonic spirit.

Remember at this time no one has being raised to heaven, no one from the OT right up to the resurrection of Christ and the resurrection of the firstfruits has been raised to heaven and this has been the problem with this debate you guys are stuck in an Old Testament mindset.

The Old Covenant People of God did not have the developed understanding of the afterlife that only came with and through the Revelation of Christ.

This is why you now only see from Peter who said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah."…

Now why does Peter who is commanded from not communicating with the dead, does he offer tents to Moses and Elijah who are dead?

Now it appears those on the side of not communicating with the died seem not to be cognizant of the rammifications of Peter wanting to offer tents to Moses and Elijah. If Jesus initiated communication with the dead, there is no reason to believe followers of Jesus cannot do the same as its clearly demonstrated Peter wished to offer tents to Moses and Elijah. 

Saints are no longer dead but alive

 

 

 

Let's start with the term saints. Saints are all people who are born again. When Jesus spoke to Moses and Elijah, they were on the earth. 

While true saints are spiritually alive in heaven, their bodies are dead and buried. Therefore, for those on earth, a person who no longer has the breath of life and no beating heart, has died and is dead. While we are in our bodies on earth, it is forbidden to speak to or conjure those who are physically dead. 

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

From Acts 24:15 it should be very clear that if there is a resurrection of the dead, that those who are just and in heaven are considered dead and will be resurrected.

To pray to the dead, which would be those who are just and in heaven, asking for assistance to change something on earth is necromancy.

 

 

How did Moses appear in a manner that made Peter want to make him a physical tent to house him?

Who is conjuring saints in  heaven?

Where does it say we cannot speak to those who are not in their bodies ?

Are we not to follow the example of Jesus in all things?

Did Jesus not speak to Moses and Elijah?

 

It would seem your position would have Jesus committing sin by speaking to Elijah and Moses.  If Jesus sinned by speaking to Elijah and Moses, then he could not be our spot less lamb and thus not be our savior.

I don't think Jesus sinned or broke God's law by speaking to Elijah and Moses who were dead in body

When one asks a Saint in heaven to pray for them, they are following Christ's example here - but where Christ was able to have a two way conversation with them, we can only send our requests one way..

 

And the just in heaven are not considered dead. That would mean God is the God of the dead.   

But Jesus was very, very clear on that point -  God is NOT the God of the dead:

 

The words of Jesus:

• Mark 12:27
• He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!"
• So he is the God of the living, not the dead. You have made a serious error."
• He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong.”
• "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken."
• He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are badly deceived." 

 

• Matthew 22:32
• But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.
• I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB '? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

 

• Matthew 22:32 
• He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

 

And there is the key.

 

To God all in Christ are alive regardless of the state of their body in life or death.

And so because in Christ all are alive to God,   Moses and Elijah were able to appear and converse with Jesus.  

And so because in Christ all are alive to God,  Moses and Elijah were also alive to Peter and the apostles too.

And so because in Christ all are alive to God,  Peter and James and John were able to participate in the appearance and conversation by Moses and Elijah with Jesus as evidenced by Peter's words to Jesus:

 

• The Transfiguration
•       28Some eight days after these sayings, He took along Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray. 29And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming. 30And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, 31who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. 32Now Peter and his companions had been overcome with sleep; but when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men standing with Him. 33And as these were leaving Him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here; let us make three tabernacles: one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah”—not realizing what he was saying.34While he was saying this, a cloud formed and began to overshadow them; and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. 35Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!” 36And when the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent, and reported to no one in those days any of the things which they had seen.

 

Notice:

• Peter and James and John saw Moses and Eiljah
• Peter and James and John heard what Moses and Elijah said -  they knew Moses and Elijah were speaking to Jesus about his coming passion and crucifixtion.
• Peter spoke through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to build booths for Jesus, Moses and Elijah
• God responded by overshadowing them,
• Peter and James and John entered the cloud
• God affirmed to Peter and James and John Jesus is the Son of God.

 

So because all in Christ are alive to God, Moses and Elijah were also alive to Peter, James and John.

If the "dead" - Moses and Elijah - were alive to Peter, James and John because Moses and Elijah are alive to God, BEFORE Jesus died and effected our salvation, how much even more so now are all who are in Christ alive to us as Moses and Elijah were alive to Peter, James and John?

 

The body of Christ is whole and complete, not fractured and divided into two halves, one on earth and the other in  heaven.    The believers on earth and the Saints in heaven make one, undivided body, alive to each other in Christ as Christ demonstrated in the Transfiguration.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2015 by thereselittleflower

[AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken]

Ducks taste better than geese, imo... but geese make good "watchdogs" and lay bigger eggs.

Good points. Ever had scrambled goose eggs?