Creation and an Old Earth - One Possibility

[Kan]

The whole argument of a pre creation world, seems to rest on the idea that if there was nothing but stillness, darkness and "the waters" before the spoken word of light, it automatically means that something was destroyed before creation week. And here the imagination begins to run. 

But of course the waters are a bit of a puzzle. Because if they are water as we know it, then, yes what are they sitting on, - an earth, and so the pre creation earth theory looks OK.

I have looked into the meaning of those waters, and while I don't think they are purely symbolic as taught by Freemasonry, I think that they are something else that exists naturally and universally. I was wondering if you would like to check that out and see if you come up with anything akin to what I think.

 

[JohnD]

6 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Before we go on, you need to understand that there is probably 20 variations or more of the Gap Theory

 

6 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

And how many variations of YEC?  Probably close to infinite.  It has to be redefined as science continues to prove their theories are without merit.

Herein lies the problem. Your gap theory and evolution theory and old age of the earth or universe theories all have variations because the interpretation of unfounded speculation is up for grabs. And it is your textbooks that have to be rewritten every few years, not the Bible. It stays the same. And despite your claims to the interpretation of YEC, any who hold to the Bible as authoritative hold to the one interpretation.

Frank Paretti did a lecture on "the chair" where he pointed out the critical need for an absolute truth on which to set the reckoning for all truth. Science is an outgrowth of Christianity btw, you should investigate this and add that to your resume.

Raiders of the Lost Ark began with an arrogant statement in the first classroom scene when Harrison Ford said, "This is a class about fact, not truth. If you want truth Mr. Umptiump has a philosophy class two doors down the hall..."

In reality, you cannot divorce truth from fact. And there has to be an absolute truth on which to base all truth.

[JohnD]

From the oldest book in the Bible:

Job 26:7 (NASB95)

7 “He stretches out the north over empty space And hangs the earth on nothing.

[JohnD]

Job 38:13–14 (AV)

13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

A seal was a signet ring or tube with a stick or string through it and rolled over clay to make the imprint.

In the oldest book of the Bible we have cosmology that includes earth being suspended on nothing and rotating like a seal.

 

[JohnD]

Moses was educated in Egyptian schools. Yet none of their teaching (medicine in particular) shows up one wit in the Torah.

And in fact the most practical ancient medical practices and dietary practices come from Torah. None of them Egyptian.

The Bible is proven to be of divine origin in many ways (not the least of which is fulfilled prophetic prophecy). These were just a couple more. 

Suffice it to say the Bible can be trusted and the account of creation and the flood etc are eyewitness testimonies as dictated to his scribe Moses.

[JohnD]

The key to understanding is to let God be in the driver's seat of revelation  to man and to each of us individually. No backseat drivers either!

2 Peter 1:20–21 (NASB95)

20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,

21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

John 16:13 (NASB95)

13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

1 John 4:1 (NASB95)

1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (NASB95)

21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;

Acts 17:11 (NASB95)

11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

2 Timothy 3:16–17 (NASB95)

16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Isaiah 28:9–13 (NASB95)

9 “To whom would He teach knowledge, And to whom would He interpret the message? Those just weaned from milk? Those just taken from the breast?

10 “For He says, ‘Order on order, order on order, Line on line, line on line, A little here, a little there.’ ”

11 Indeed, He will speak to this people Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue,

12 He who said to them, “Here is rest, give rest to the weary,” And, “Here is repose,” but they would not listen.

13 So the word of the Lord to them will be, “Order on order, order on order, Line on line, line on line, A little here, a little there,” That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive.

Proverbs 25:2 (NASB95)

2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

 

[SavedOnebyGrace]

On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 6:00 PM, Riverwalker said:

YEC Version 1.0

 

God did it, as He said He did it  In the Time Frame He Said he Did It

 

With light days before the sun was made.....with birds before land animals were made

 

and man formed out of the dust of the earth and life breathed into Him

 

Just as He said He did

 

Since when is God limited by time?

Some place God within the confines of the very dimensions He created, time being one of them.  Philosopher, Theologian and Christian William Lane Craig's Christian view puts God in the position of placing Himself inside of His creation in his particular cosmological view.  It is necessary to support his philosophical Kalam cosmological argument for the existence of God.  Such limited thinking prevents YEC from really appreciating the full majesty and grace of our sovereign God.

[Riverwalker]

7 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Some place God within the confines of the very dimensions He created, time being one of them.  Philosopher, Theologian and Christian William Lane Craig's Christian view puts God in the position of placing Himself inside of His creation in his particular cosmological view.  It is necessary to support his philosophical Kalam cosmological argument for the existence of God.  Such limited thinking prevents YEC from really appreciating the full majesty and grace of our sovereign God.

I completely disagree... the Majesty and Grace of God is fully evident is a Creation that was spoken into existance....not dragged out over a 4 billion year process

let there be light....and there was light.  Who else could do that but God?

[SavedOnebyGrace]

9 hours ago, Riverwalker said:

I completely disagree... the Majesty and Grace of God is fully evident is a Creation that was spoken into existance....not dragged out over a 4 billion year process

let there be light....and there was light.  Who else could do that but God?

You state billions of years as a negative.  God, the Ancient of Days, is not bound by time, He is the Creator of time.  According to YEC, God's original creation was in darkness, without form and void as Genesis 1:2 states.

Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.  [KJV]

The YEC is unsupported by scripture.
 

[hmbld]

2 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

You state billions of years as a negative.  God, the Ancient of Days, is not bound by time, He is the Creator of time.  According to YEC, God's original creation was in darkness, without form and void as Genesis 1:2 states.

Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.  [KJV]

The YEC is unsupported by scripture.
 

YEC is unsupported by scripture?  In the beginning God created all that there is in 7 days, including man, then recorded each generation down to Jesus birth, and you claim it is unsupported by scripture?  What is unsupported is all the stuff you have added into the 7 days, that is not supported by anything other than imagination!  You make a case of what "could be", which has no biblical support.  How could "in the beginning" not be the beginning?