DO YOU BELIEVE ITS OKAY TO EAT PORK, AS A BELIEVER IN GOD ?

[Guest shiloh357]

2 hours ago, BobRyan said:

 

Broad generalizations about "vain oaths" are not a quote of Ex 20 or of Lev 19.

I didn't say it was.   I said that taking vain oaths is prohibited in the NT and so the OT prohibition of using God's Name in not taking a vain oath is in keeping with the moral paradigm of the NT.  It is foregone conclusion that not taking a vain oath would naturally include not using God's Name in a vain oath, as well.

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Even in the NT you can only eat what the Word of God approves -- 1 Tim 4:4-5. Jesus did not die on the cross so people could eat rats or diseased beef.

Jesus didn't die on the cross so that people could keep the dietary commandments, either.   There are no NT prohibitions on eating pork or shellfish.

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Man-made ideas that some statements in scripture (such as not eating diseased food or rats) is not a moral issue - ignores 1 Cor 3 and 1Cor 6 where we are told that our bodies are the temple of God and we should not engage in activity that works to destroy them.

The dietary commandments are not moral/ethical commandments; there is no moral/ethical principles attached to them, in Scripture.

I Cor. 3 and I Cor. 6 do not pertain to what a person eats.   I Cor. 3 is speaking to Corinthian church that they are, corporately the temple of the Lord and the context was about congregational unity.   I Cor. 6 is addressing, in part, the issue of sexual immorality and makes a case against fornication on the grounds that their bodies are temples of the Lord, as well. 

Nothing in either context speaks to the issue of the dietary commandments.  It's not what goes into us that defiles us, according to Jesus; it's what come out of us:

And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand: There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man. If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable. And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.(Mar 7:14-23)

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Jesus did not die on the cross to 'enforce the law about not taking God's name in vain' - He died to pay for sins -- not to select a given law and enforce it.

Yes, just like I said.

[simplejeff]

Since the church(in various areas) as a whole is so frequently wrong,    ......  ummmm......

 

and since doctors have said that pesticides, parasites and pollution like mercury and cadmium is harmful .... well...

would you eat a bowl of fresh vegetables even,  if it was sprayed with mercury ? ,  or petsicidic (chemikals) toxins ?

 

(besides the instructions to everyone(i.e. the "whole ekklesia"),  do not cause someone weak in their faith to stumble for any reason by doing something unnecessary)

[simplejeff]

(searched 'pesticides' on worthy found this : )

Posted May 22 ·

•  
• The most pesticides
• celery
• peaches
• strawberries
• apples
• domestic blueberries
• nectarines
• sweet bell peppers
• spinach, kale and collard greens
• cherries
• potatoes
• imported grapes
• lettuce

All the produce on “The Clean 15” bore little to no traces of pesticides, and is safe to consume in non-organic form. This list includes:

• onions
• avocados
• sweet corn
• pineapples
• mango
• sweet peas
• asparagus
• kiwi fruit
• cabbage
• eggplant
• cantaloupe
• watermelon
• grapefruit
• sweet potatoes
• sweet onions

[Guest shiloh357]

25 minutes ago, inchrist said:

You completely missed the boat on this one.

Christ had issues with the Pharisaic hand washing ritual of obsessively washing hands seven times.

To get a completed picture

Matthew 15:

 

2 Why do your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

 

3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do you also TRANSGRESS THE COMMANDMENT OF ELOHIYM by your TRADITION?

Christ was rebuking the Pharisees for what? Was he rebuking them for honoring the commandments of God? No!

Christ was rebuking them for REPLACING God's commandments with their own.

And that is exactly what you are doing.

No, I didn't say that Jesus' teachings were about the dietary commandments.   I was making a broader point that Jesus gave us a principle that it is not what goes into us that defiles us, but what comes out.

That would apply to pharisaic rules about hand washing, but it would also speak to a broader principle that would include the dietary commandments.   What good, for example, would it be if you abstained from eating pork, but verbally abuse your children every evening?   What good is holding to strict adherence to the dietary and ceremonial rules in the Torah if you go to work and tell dirty jokes at the water cooler or lie, or steal from the company by taking too long on your break times?

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the commandments of God on the gentiles clearly state:

Ezekiel 47:

 

22 And it shall come to pass, that you shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Yisra’el; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Yisra’el.

 

23 And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourns, there shall you give him his inheritance, says YHWH ELOHIYM.

Gentiles who sojourn with Israel

sojourns”with an Israelite, that there shall be ONE LAW for the stranger who sojourns with you and for the Israel will have ONE LAW:

 

Exodus 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourns among you.

Now answer this, since you walking with Christ, who are you sojourning with?

Is Christ not the King of Israel?

 

I am not sojourning with Israel. Jesus is the divine God and King of the universe, not just Israel.  Jesus' relationship to Israel as their Messiah doesn't apply to me, as I am not an Israelite.

The above verses that you are straining to twist and pervert  do not apply to the NT Church and were not directed to the NT Church.

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Then you can explain why Christ is forcing the least in the Kingdom to obey the feasts and the sabbaths in the Millennium...

We are not in the Millennium.  What happens then has nothing to do with right now.

[Willa]

 

8 minutes ago, Yowm said:

No one is saying we must eat pesticide laden food or bug infested food.

The general rule given is ..

Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you.
(Luk 10:8)

For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,
(1Ti 4:4)

Don't fall into this camp...

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
(1Ti 4:1-3)

 

 

 

Excellent answer!

 

I won't flaunt my freedom before you since I don't want to offend you.   After all, maybe that sausage in my gravy is really turkey sausage.  My hot dog could be kosher as well.  My bacon may be turkey bacon.  So Paul the missionary advocated the don't ask don't tell when speaking of food sacrificed to idols, and many a missionary to S.E Asia has avoided offending his hosts by not asking what he was eating as well.  It might be a good way to handle the problems of eating foods that God has blessed and declared to be clean.  

There are some foods that don't sound appetizing.  The liberals now want us to eat maggots with our sea weed to solve world hunger.  

[Guest shiloh357]

7 minutes ago, inchrist said:

You didnt understand what I said.....Christ issues.....and this is what the teaching is....the Pharisees were substituting Gods laws with mans laws. Thats the issue Christ was taking.

 

I said that I understood that Jesus was responding to the issue about hand washing.   My point is that the principle he espoused is true when it comes to the dietary commandments.    It's what comes out of  a person, not what goes in them that defiles them.   Jesus is more concerned with moral character than He is about what you eat. You can keep the dietary commandments, but it is of little value for the Kingdom if you are liar and a cheat and an abuser

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Very much like you, who is replacing God's commandments with another commandment thats not even biblical.

Wrong.  I said that Gentile Christians are not under any dietary laws from the OT.  I am not replacing God's commandments with anything.  I am simply rejecting your claim that Gentile Christians are obligated to the dietary commandments. 

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Of cause you dont believe it, because you believe in an apartheid doctrine.

An apartheid doctrine?  Now you're just being ridiculous.

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When all scriptures point to an engrafting of gentile with Israel.....of cause we sojourn with them.

8 For he is not a YaHuW’diy (Jew), which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

 

29 But he is a YaHuW’diy (Jew), which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, 

 

Rom. 2:28-29 is not about Gentiles being inwardly Jewish.   Paul is explaining what it means for a Jew to be truly Jewish.   

 

The grafting metaphor Paul uses in Romans 11 isn't about making Gentiles into Jews.  The point of the grafting metaphor had to do with Gentile participation in the blessings of the covenants that God made with Israel.   Grafting doesn't change the branch into something else.   Gentiles don't become Jews.   If they did, it would destroy the image of the "one new man"  in Christ, which is made up of Gentiles and Jews sharing equally in the blessings of the Covenants.  

 

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So you saying we can teach men to break the least of the commandments now?

Gentile Christians are not obligated to the dietary commandments. So, they are not breaking any commandments at this time if they eat pork.

 

[Absolem]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

Again NO! That is not what Jesus is teaching. How are you not getting this?

Christ was showing that these Pharisees were making this hand washing ritual a doctrine that was never sanctioned by our Creator.

Christ was talking about doctrines & commandments of men.

 

 

Prove it....I have scripture that states otherwise.

 

 

I didnt say we become jews I said we sojourn with Israel....the common wealth of Israel..one law.....perhaps you should revisit ezekiels prophecies

 

 

whosoever teaches men to break even one of the LEAST of these commandments shall be called LEAST in the Kingdom.”

Were not under any dietary laws whatsoever. Its faith in Christ that justifies.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Absolem

[BobRyan]

8 hours ago, Yowm said:

Romans 14:14 KJV
[14] I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Those claiming certain foods unclean should realize that is their conscience speaking for themselves only, not the Church as a whole.

There is no record at all of Paul (or any other Bible writer or any NT saint) eating rats or diseased beef. And most people here would not join him in doing so - even if he did. Lev 11 forbids both. 1 Cor 6 is clear on the point that we are not to destroy our bodies.

 

Christ did not die on the cross so people could eat rats and diseased beef -- that is not even remotely the Gospel.

[BobRyan]

4 hours ago, inchrist said:

You completely missed the boat on this one.

Christ had issues with the Pharisaic hand washing ritual of obsessively washing hands seven times.

To get a completed picture

Matthew 15:

 

2 Why do your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

 

3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do you also TRANSGRESS THE COMMANDMENT OF ELOHIYM by your TRADITION?

Christ was rebuking the Pharisees for what? Was he rebuking them for honoring the commandments of God? No!

Christ was rebuking them for REPLACING God's commandments with their own.

And that is exactly what you are doing.

You are REPLACING God's commandments and using the words of Christ out of context to cancel out his own commandments, with such following statements

A.

B.

the commandments of God on the gentiles clearly state:

Ezekiel 47:

 

22 And it shall come to pass, that you shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Yisra’el; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Yisra’el.

 

23 And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourns, there shall you give him his inheritance, says YHWH ELOHIYM.

Gentiles who sojourn with Israel

sojourns”with an Israelite, that there shall be ONE LAW for the stranger who sojourns with you and for the Israel will have ONE LAW:

 

Exodus 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourns among you.

Now answer this, since you walking with Christ, who are you sojourning with?

Is Christ not the King of Israel?

Then there is one law between gentiles and Israelites.

 

Further Christ clearly taught

 “whosoever teaches men to break even one of the LEAST of these commandments shall be called LEAST in the Kingdom.”

 

Then you can explain why Christ is forcing the least in the Kingdom to obey the feasts and the sabbaths in the Millennium...

 

 

Good point

 

Mark 7

6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘This people honors Me with their lips,

But their heart is far away from Me.

7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,

Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’

8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”

9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the Word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

 

That discussion starts off over the man-made traditions being violated regarding the eating of "bread" so then "wheat" and not the eating of rats, not the eating of diseased animals... but "wheat".

 

² Now when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. ³ For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders. ⁴ When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches.

⁵ Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?”

 

 

 

 

[BobRyan]

49 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Who said any one is to eat poison or diseased meat...a red herring..

 Not at all a red herring since Leviticus 11 specifically deals with eating rats and with eating diseased meat - it says that even animals that are defined as "clean animals" by the Bible - are in fact unclean - if they are diseased and they may not be eaten.

49 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Christ died for our sins, not for our belly.

True. Jesus did not die so we could eat rats or diseased beef, or diseased deer/sheep/goats etc. All of which are forbidden in scripture -

 

49 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Colossians 2:20-23 NASB
[20] If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, [21] "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!" [22] (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)-in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?

This is a good point - Col 2 condemns man-made traditions and teaching.

By contrast "all scripture is inspired by God and is to be used for doctrine" 2 Tim 3:16