And Science Says Our Gap Theory Is Bad...

[Bonky]

Sister, after reading your post, it almost sounds as if God purposely created a being that would gather the most souls possible to be damned to hell.  Now this same being, I'm told, is also supposed to be the most loving, merciful benign being possible.  I can only assume you are a Calvinist, where people are preselected to be either "wicked" or children of God.  

I can't express enough what a twisted view this is of people in general.  You can't possibly claim that God wants us all in heaven and yet hold this belief that he created Satan to be a magnet for lost souls on earth.  Steven Weinberg made a famous quote about this, religion can make good people believe and do wicked things.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Bonky

[Sister]

8 hours ago, Bonky said:

Sister, after reading your post, it almost sounds as if God purposely created a being that would gather the most souls possible to be damned to hell.  Now this same being, I'm told, is also supposed to be the most loving, merciful benign being possible.  I can only assume you are a Calvinist, where people are preselected to be either "wicked" or children of God.  

I can't express enough what a twisted view this is of people in general.  You can't possibly claim that God wants us all in heaven and yet hold this belief that he created Satan to be a magnet for lost souls on earth.  Steven Weinberg made a famous quote about this, religion can make good people believe and do wicked things.

Bonky

There is a bigger picture happening that might be hard to see right now.

God created everything for his pleasure.  It's his pleasure that he create children for himself that come to him willingly out of choice, and not force.  It is his good will to give us and share all that he has so we too can enjoy a place so marvelous that the mind cannot even comprehend.  That place is his realm, a kingdom that he has prepared for us where there is no evil, and no suffering, but a place of pure peace and truth. 

So for his children to willingly yearn what he is offering, he has to put resistance here, ...an opposition so that we can make that choice.  Without evil, we cannot chose the good, as there would be no choice.  He created a tool, Lucifer to cut that fine line between all his children who want to claim their inheritance, from those who don't care for it.

This kingdom he has prepared for us to join consists of all his laws.  His laws are holy, and his children before they can enter (at the resurrection) have to follow his guide and be holy too.  To be holy is a choice, a conscientious effort to believe that his laws are good and all serve a purpose.

So God put evil here so that we can resist and also learn by tasting, and watching how evil can grow like a cancer.  If every man followed what God directed, and loved his neigbour, there would be no wars, no murders, no cheating, no lying etc etc.  So because we don't want to listen to God, we can clearly see how much the earth has been contaminated built on greed, lust, wars, oppression etc.  It's obvious that a world without God has turned to chaos. Can you see where this world is standing today?  Is it getting better? 

God is not helpless but has let it go, until the time when he cuts evil down.  In the meantime, good and evil have to grow together, and those that hate the evil will be drawn to God, and those that love it drawn to the opposition.  It's very black and white and without both existing, we wouldn't learn a thing or even begin to understand what God already knows.

Well for the sake of the good, God has to eradicate the bad apples that contaminate the rest.  So despite what is happening in the world today, there is a door that God provided for us to enter, and once we enter, he will reveal all things to us (through his Word) on what is coming good and bad, and that if we actually listen to what he's showing us, and keep to the path he set out for us, we can claim our inheritance at the end.

God is not for religion.  Religion is created by man.  If a religious man loves to war then he doesn't love his neighbour, and if he doesn't love his neighbour, then he's not a real child of God who told us to love our neighbour and do no ill towards him.  It's that simple.

So it's for God's good pleasure that he create children for himself to fill his kingdom with.  It's his good pleasure that before this can all happen, a process has to be undertaken, and this plan he set out is magnificent to draw those who love righteousness to himself and call them his children by changing our hearts from the inside, then at the resurrection, the outside will be made perfect also.

The rich elites are taking this world for themselves, by raping the earth and taking everything God gave us for free.  They've turned us into their slaves, and they don't distribute the wealth, but reward us by taking even more from us.  Is this fair?  These are the same people who hate God because their ways are different from his.  Well God sees all this and has vowed to share everything he owns distributing evenly for all to enjoy amongst his children, for those who love his ways, and those who have been oppressed.  So to be self serving is all in vain, because it's going to change.

 

 

 

[FresnoJoe]

On ‎1‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 0:23 PM, Bonky said:

Sister, after reading your post....
it almost sounds as if God purposely created a being....
that would gather the most souls possible to be damned to hell....  

?

Strange Thoughts

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

From A Fellow Who

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Ephesians 3:9

Mocks The Very Creator

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

Who Went To The Cross To Save Any Who Would But Believe

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Jesus

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

Love, Joe

[HAZARD]

On ‎7‎/‎01‎/‎2016 at 1:44 AM, Sister said:

Bonky

 Isaiah 54:16   Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

 Isaiah 10:15   Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.

God knew exactly what he was doing when he created Lucifer.  He made no mistake and wasn't surprised at Lucifer's rebellion, for he planned it this way for Lucifer to become his tool, created like a magnet to attract the wicked. 

God was careful to create Lucifer perfectly at first so that pride and vanity could build up in him, and he also filled him with much wisdom, for he wasn't going to give us a dumb angel to contend with, but one smart enough to corrupt this whole world through that wisdom he was given in order to connive, plan and destroy at the highest level.

.....and also, training Christians to fight against the best evil can offer.

 Ezekiel 28:15, Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Iniquity was what? FOUND in thee. Lucifer made a personal choice.

John 8:44, Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own:1 for he is a liar, and the father of it.

If God created Lucifer a wicked lying, murdering angel, then we can accuse God of being the author of sin, sickness disease and death! And we know hat is nonsense.

Lucifer was created a free moral agent, as we are and as all other angels were. he through pride fell.

In Isaiah. 14:12-14 we have statements which cannot possibly of an earthly King. The passage is universally refering to the fall of Satan. We can quote it and note the facts.

"How art thou fallen from Heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which dist weaken the nations! For thou art hast said in thine heart, I WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN, I WILL EXALT MY THRONE above the stars of God: I WILL sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I WILL ascend above the heights of the clouds; I WILL BE like the most High," Now note the following facts this passage proves of Satan:

1. That his name is Lucifer.

2. That he was a son of the morning, and therefore, no earthly man.

3. That he fell from Heaven. This could never be spoken of a man. Satan is the only person in all Scripture who is spoken of as falling from Heaven (Luke 10:18).

4. That he was cut down to the ground in his fall.

5. That he weakened the nations on Earth.

6. That he was exalted in his heart.

7. That he invaded Heaven where God rules.

8. That he was a KING, for he had a Throne and SUBJECTS over whom he ruled.

9. That he wanted to exalt his kingdom above the clouds, stars, and into Heaven itself to dethrone God.

10. That he wanted to be worshiped in the congregation of God (Ps. 72:2; 82:1; Isa. 6:1).

11. That he led a rebellion against God but was defeated.

12. That his kingdom was on Earth, or he never could have tried to ascend above the clouds, stars, and into Heaven. When a kingdom is located under the clouds it has to be on the Earth.

13. That the ground, clouds, stars, and Heaven were already created.

14. That it had to be before Adam, for this was not the position of Lucifer when he was in Adam's Eden. Adam had dominion at that time. Lucifer had no kingdom on the Earth at the time of Adam and he has not had one since in the sense of a visible personal rule on Earth. He has only ruled through others since Adam's day; so this must refer to a time before Adam.

15. That he was not in Heaven when he rebelled, else he could not have desired to ascend into Heaven. He was under the stars, or he could not have desired to be exalted above the stars. He was under the clouds, or he could not have desired to ascend above them.

16. That God's throne is located in the north part of the universe (Psalms 75:6-7). Thus, this passage proves the location of Satan's original kingdom and the time of his fall. It was located on Earth, and his fall was before Adam, for he was al;reday a fallen creature when he entered Adam' Eden.

In Coll. 1:15-18 we read of Christ creating thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers in Heaven and on Earth. They were located somewhere in the heavens and on the Earth. Lucifer was given a kingdom here on Earth, as proved by the passages cited above. His own subjects were earthly creatures of various kinds which were destroyed when the flood of Gen. 1:2 came upon the Earth. God created the Earth to be inhabited by earthly creatures (Isa. 45:18). They are called "nations" in the above passages. The demons who are now Satans emissaries could well be the spirits of the pre-Adamites. At any rate they are not part of the creation at the time of Adam. Thus Isaiah teaches the the Earth was inhabited before Adam and was ruled by Lucifer, whos' kingdom was overthrown when he rebelled.

There is so, so much more found in Scripture regarding this doctrin, many dozens of Scriptures support this. If this is false teaching, it amuses me that no one comes up with nothing more than Noah's flood, which occured much later, did not compleatly destroy the Earth, shake mountains, turn them upside down, turned off the stars and the sun so that there was no light. God had already created the Heavens, they were in existence as well as the Earth only their lights were withheld from shining on the Earth thus causing darkness Gen. 1:2. There was no darkness during Noah's flood? There were men and animals on the earth before Noah's flood, and Noah and his family and the animals survived the flood and were on the Eart after it?

That the Earth ONLY was (became) without form and void (Hebrew tohu vabobu, litterally wast and ruin or desolate and empty), as in Gen. 1:2. That there were mountains of Earth that were shaken and turned upside down by an earthquake so severe, which no doubt caused the remains of animals to be deposited in the very depths of the Earth beneath many layers of solid rock, such as are now been found. Noah's flood never buried animals hundreds of meters beneath solid rock.

Many other scriptures apart from those above can be presented to prove the doctrin of a pre-Adamite world.

To try and put this in a nutshell, God created the heavens first, then the Earth, all in the beginning or in the dateless past (Gen. 1:1; Job 38:4-7). He caused the heavens and the Earth to be inhabited and gave Lucifer control of the Earth-kingdom, don't believe me, read, (Coll. 1:15-18; Rev. 12:12; Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14).

Lucifer ruled the earth for God for an unknown period before he rebelled and invaded heaven to try and dethrone God. Not my idea, read (Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14). He was defeated and his kingdom on Earth was destroyed by a flood and the fierce anger of God (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; Ps. 104:5-9; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).

The Earth was turned upside down, a process which caused all the present formations of the Earth. The flood remained on the Earth for an unknown period of time, and then God in six days restored the Earth to a habitable state and made Adam and Eve and his creation to carry out the original plan of God concerning the Earth (Gen. 1:3-2:25).

Lucifer, now called Satan, and the spirit rebels caused man to fall, and they regained dominion of the earth through Adam's submission (2 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 2:1-3; 6:10-18; Rom. 5:12-21). They have been in control ever since and will be in control untill the second coming of Christ, who will put down all rebellion in the Millennium and make a New Heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth all righteousness forever (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 19:11-22:5). Why does science show the earth to be many millions of years old and the Bible "(allegedly)" says it is only six thousand years old? So, as with everything miss understood in Scripture men call what they do not understand a theory. Hence, the gap theory, or even a heresy. But there was a gap and its no theory. Scripture shows there was a creation "in the beginning" and then a re-creation.

If we take the time to carefully read all the Scriptures regarding this doctrin and not just skim over them retaining old knowledge in the mind, and the READ these below, which backs up what is said, and see for yourselves

You see, God spoke, and as soon as the materials were made, God created and formed with His hands the heavens, with all its light and darkness first, then the Earth, all in the beginning, or in the dateless past (Gen. 1:1; Job 38:4-7). God created the heavens and the earth to be inhabited and He gave Lucifer control of the Earth kingdom (Col. 1:15-18; Rev. 12:12; Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14). Lucifer obeyed God and ruled for an unknown time before he rebelled and invaded heaven to try and de-throne (Ezek 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14).

Naturally Lucifer was defeated, and his kingdom on the earth was totally destroyed by a flood and by the fierce anger of God (Gen. 1;2; Jer. 4:23-26; Ps. 104:5-9; 2 Pet. 3:5-6), hence the severe geological contortions of the earth's crust, vast deposits of bones in various places world wide, fossiles thousands or millions of years old etc. The earth was turned upside down in this process, ever wondered why the moon is poc marked by countless craters, and yet we never see anything plowing into it these days causing such destruction. What about the other dead planets in our immediate solar system? The flood God caused to cover the earth remained for an unknown period of time, and then God, in six days restored the earth to a habitable state and made Adam and his creation to carry out the original plan of God concerning the Earth (Gen. 1:3-2:25).

Lucifer and his spirit rebels caused man to fall and by this regained dominion of the earth through Adams submission (2 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 2:1-3; 6:10-18; Rom. 5:12-21). Lucifer has been in control ever since and he will remain in control until the second coming of Jesus Christ who will put down all rebellion in the Millennium. God will then finally make a New heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth righteousness forever (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 19:11-22:5).

This doctrin is too simple for most men to understand, so they reject it.

[Sister]

Hazard
 

Quote

 

Ezekiel 28:15, Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Iniquity was what? FOUND in thee. Lucifer made a personal choice.

 

 Evil had to come forth at some particular point and be found in Lucifer.  This doesn't contradict what I said.

So what you are saying is our God who is all knowing, who declares the end in the beginning, doesn't know that his subject Lucifer will turn evil?  Are you saying that God had no control over his own creation?

Isaiah 45:7   I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Would anything surprise God? Didn't he already make his plan for salvation before the foundations of the world were created? 

How can he plan to offer salvation way in advance if he doesn't create evil?  We wouldn't need it then, wouldn't have any resistance.  Would be created just like robots.

How could we then choose good over evil without the two choices?

[HAZARD]

God says in Scripture He did not know man would become so evil, it repented it to His Heart that He had created man.

 

Genesis 6: 5, And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every1 imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

 6, And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
   

7, And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

"How could we then choose good over evil without the two choices?"

.

You said it here. He chose evil, two thirds of God's angels did not chose evil. They had free will just as Lucifer had.

Just like you and I have a choice, we can either love God and chose good, or follow Satan and chose evil.

   

[SavedOnebyGrace]

Question: "How, why, and when did Satan fall from heaven?"

Answer: Satan’s fall from heaven is symbolically described in Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:12-18. While these two passages are referring specifically to the kings of Babylon and Tyre, they also reference the spiritual power behind those kings, namely, Satan. These passages describe why Satan fell, but they do not specifically say when the fall occurred. What we do know is this: the angels were created before the earth (Job 38:4-7). Satan fell before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden (Genesis 3:1-14). Satan’s fall, therefore, must have occurred somewhere after the time the angels were created and before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Whether Satan’s fall occurred a few minutes, hours, or days before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden, Scripture does not specifically say.

The book of Job tells us, at least at that time, Satan still had access to heaven and to the throne of God. “One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. The LORD said to Satan, ’Where have you come from?’ Satan answered the LORD, ‘From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it’” (Job 1:6-7). Apparently at that time, Satan was still moving freely between heaven and earth, speaking to God directly and answering for his activities. At what point God discontinued this access is unknown.

Why did Satan fall from heaven? Satan fell because of pride. He desired to be God, not to be a servant of God. Notice the many “I will...” statements in Isaiah 14:12-15. Ezekiel 28:12-15 describes Satan as an exceedingly beautiful angel. Satan was likely the highest of all angels, the most beautiful of all of God's creations, but he was not content in his position. Instead, Satan desired to be God, to essentially “kick God off His throne” and take over the rule of the universe. Satan wanted to be God, and interestingly enough, that is what Satan tempted Adam and Eve with in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:1-5). How did Satan fall from heaven? Actually, a fall is not an accurate description. It would be far more accurate to say God cast Satan out of heaven (Isaiah 14:15; Ezekiel 28:16-17). Satan did not fall from heaven; rather, Satan was pushed out of heaven.

Source: Got Questions?
 

This is an error in one of Serving's posts.  This is just one that jumped out at me.  It is pure speculation, not based on Biblical truth that Satan was cast out of Heaven after Jesus Crucifiction.

[Guest Teditis]

Job 38:4-7 doesn't say anything about the angels being formed before the world.

If anything, it states that they were created in the first days... calling them stars.

[SavedOnebyGrace]

16 minutes ago, Teditis said:

Job 38:4-7 doesn't say anything about the angels being formed before the world.

If anything, it states that they were created in the first days... calling them stars.

Question: "When did God create the angels?"

Answer: Trying to determine when God created the angels is somewhat tricky because anything God did “before the foundation of the world” puts the event outside of time itself. Time and space are characteristics of our world, not God’s. He is not limited by hours, days and years as we are. In fact, the Bible tells us that “with the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day” (2 Peter 3:8).

We do know that God created the angels before he created the physical universe. The book of Job describes the angels worshipping God as He was creating the world: “Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone - while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?” (Job 38:4-7).

If we consider the function of angels, we might conclude that God created the angels just prior to the creation of mankind because one of their duties is to be “ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation” (Hebrews 1:14). We also know they existed prior to the Garden of Eden, because Satan, who was formerly the angel Lucifer, was already present in the Garden in his fallen state. However, because another function of angels is to worship God around His throne (Revelation 5:11-14), they may have been in existence millions of years—as we reckon time—before God created the world, worshipping Him and serving Him.

So, although the Bible does not specifically say when God created the angels, it was sometime before the world was created. Whether this was a day before, or billions of years before—again, as we reckon time—we cannot be sure.

Source: Got Questions?
 

[Guest Teditis]

I guess I disagree... I'll stick to what the Bible says.