Guest Thallasa Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 1 Romans 5:13'for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.' Well, what do you think of this? I am thinking of God judging all those nations who didn't have the law. Not sure what he means by this. I guess my point was entirely missed. I was wondering about those nations God judged who didn't have the law. If sin is not imputed.... well, they were judged anyway. As it is written, even before the law, the penalty for sin was, and is, death. As it is written**, the goyim((gentiles/ other nations)) were without God and without hope in the world until Christ.As it is written, those inside the church, we ((the ecclesia)) judge now today, those outside God judges.As it is written, those who from the heart obey Torah, though they had not Torah, .... see in full in Romans and Galatians and Ephesians and Revelation -- there's a lot of context.... ** re Scripture for gentiles for "without God".... don't know nor endorse ray stedman either way... quik search....Strangers in Darkness | Ephesians 2:11-13 | RayStedman.orgwww.raystedman.org/new-testament/ephesians/strangers-in-darkness ... you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in thng Ray Stedmane world.Well ,Jeff ,was reading Ray Stedmans piece and enjoying it ,until I came to what I consider a blatant piece of untruth .Not just one ,but for now I will just mention the first one . It is evident more and more that protesant preachers of a particular kind are prone to ignorance and predjudice of European History .When he mentions "had it not been for the influx of missionaries who carried the Word to our forefathers in England and Germany .....Ray has just forgotten to say who those missionaries were . They were IRISH. It was the monks of Ireland of Saint Patrick , who took the gospel to England and Germany and the rest of Eastern Europe . He also says not too many centuries ago, northern europeans were living in caves .Well may be in Scandanavia ,but it is more like thousnds of years since they lived in caves ,as the land was cultivated in some form, and people lived in houses .Simple,but not caves .From time to time some people have been forced to ,during the wars for example .Ireland was called the Island of Saints , storytellers ,and poets , until Cromwell put them to the sword , and is famous for the words "to hell or Connaught" ,meaning die, or go West to the land where little grows .The East being richer soil , the English wanted it for themselves . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted November 21, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted November 21, 2015 Blessings Pamela It is much simpler if perhaps you look at the synonyms fo the word "imputed",,,,,,attribute to, ascribe to, assign to, credit toMan could not know what a sin was without a law assigned to it,,,,,in other words if you walked across someones lawn everyday it would be perfectly okay in your mind until the sign was posted"Keep off the grass".....................hows that for an analagy? Too simple? I believe that is how simple it is...................To God be the Glory! With love-in Christ,KwikI guess my point was entirely missed. I was wondering about those nations God judged who didn't have the law. If sin is not imputed.... well, they were judged anyway. They were judged because every human being has a conscience, and in the absence of the written Law, the conscience serves (Rom 2:14-16).Thanks brother ! So conviction ( or conscience ) is a key component ?Exactly:CONVICTION15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another, JUDGMENT16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamelasv Posted November 22, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 132 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 582 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/24/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/21/1969 Author Share Posted November 22, 2015 Right. So then..............what purpose does the scripture I quoted serve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted November 22, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted November 22, 2015 Right. So then..............what purpose does the scripture I quoted serve?What Paul was saying there is that sins were not clearly and specifically defined and presented to men as a violation of specific laws until the Ten Commandments were written down by the finger of God. Therefore they could not be "imputed" or charged as specific sins. Since then Israel (and all those exposed to the Torah among the Gentiles) knew exactly which of the commandments they had broken (or were breaking), which means they also knew which specific penalty would apply (which is in fact death).For example if there is no posted speed limit on a highway, then the driver must use his best judgement (which includes his conscience in terms of endangering others). But once a clearly deflned speed limit is posted, then exceeding that limit means breaking the law, and there is a specific penalty for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted November 22, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted November 22, 2015 They were not judged according to the Mosaic Law, but according to the natural law. Sodom and Gomorrah broke God's natural law and were judged.The law from Mt Sinai is natural to God and to nature. But I am sure you are referring to Romans, 1 or 2? where it says that they are judged by what is known to them through nature, or their natural conscience which is given by default to all humanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted November 22, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted November 22, 2015 1 Romans 5:13'for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.' Well, what do you think of this? I am thinking of God judging all those nations who didn't have the law. Not sure what he means by this. Does this text say that there was no law before Sinai? No, it merely says that if there were no law, then sin could not be imputed, and here it is assumed by many that the law did not come until Sinai. But it is saying, as all the Jews would have known, that the law existed right from the beginning, and that Mt Sinai was just a reminder. One of the laws even says "Remember the Sabbath day" which was established and made Holy by God in the beginning.How could there be sin before Sinai if there were no law, because "sin is (defined as) the transgression of the law." ?What law? the law that was written in the hearts of Adam and Eve, which they broke, and which God wants to rewrite into the hearts of all men again. See Hebrews 10.The law from Mt Sinai is a copy of the law of heaven, by the throne of God, the universe is built on its principles and God rules by its principles, both in nature and spirituality.If the blueprint of the law did not exist in the hearts of fallen men (only due to the gift of faith through the sacrifice of God) then they could not be condemned of sin and neither would they be capable of sinning, such as the animals.When it says "until the law (on Mt Sinai) sin was in the world" it means that the law existed prior to Sinai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted November 22, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted November 22, 2015 They were not judged according to the Mosaic Law, but according to the natural law. Sodom and Gomorrah broke God's natural law and were judged. Law Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. Ezekiel 16:49 And Mercy Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah. Isaiah 1:9 Here is evidence that sin could be imputed before the law was given to the world from Mt Sinai. People wrongly refer to this law as the "old Mosaic law." Moses did not write this law, God did. So it is not a Mosaic law at all. In fact none of the laws are Mosaic, because God instructed him to write the civil and ceremonial laws in a book which was kept beside the ark of the testament, in which were the tables of stone written by God's own finger. The ten laws of God, came by God to earth, they are of a heavenly origin, not earthly. John saw an ark in heaven of the original law. Rev 11:19. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted November 22, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,850 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,759 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted November 22, 2015 Dear sister, Jesus said; I have not come to judge but to saved. Jesus is Love, love forgives, Jesus is for the whole World, if you look for guidance to the God of the Jews only, firsts of all you are not a Jew, and even if you were a Jew, he is not around to answer you, there is no more Law of Moses and the Jews as the children of God, thery are both a thing of the past as is their God. He exist only in the minds and harts of the people. The, revengeful. The eye for an eye God, has seige to be, is not existing anymore or died the moment Jesus was born, our God with us, Emmanuel. the creator has taken up our flesh, and then he says "no more an eye for an eye", turn the other chick, bless those that offend you,Well if you think that you may offend God, a blessing is on the way, you may find out that God is not offented in this way.God Loved the world that he sent his Son to save the World.Jesus is the Savior of the Egyptians and the Canaanities and the Babylonias, and the Jews.This is old staff, not for the day of Jesus Christ, who said "love your enemy", tell them about me, feed them and keep them alive, maybe they may come to my knowledge. And Jesus leads us to the new Promish Land, his own the heavenly one, in the mean time we have his love pour in our harts through the Holy Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted November 22, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.69 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted November 22, 2015 They were not judged according to the Mosaic Law, but according to the natural law. Sodom and Gomorrah broke God's natural law and were judged. Law Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. Ezekiel 16:49 And Mercy Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah. Isaiah 1:9 Here is evidence that sin could be imputed before the law was given to the world from Mt Sinai. People wrongly refer to this law as the "old Mosaic law." Moses did not write this law, God did. So it is not a Mosaic law at all. In fact none of the laws are Mosaic, because God instructed him to write the civil and ceremonial laws in a book which was kept beside the ark of the testament, in which were the tables of stone written by God's own finger. The ten laws of God, came by God to earth, they are of a heavenly origin, not earthly. John saw an ark in heaven of the original law. Rev 11:19. It's called the Mosaic Law because those were the laws given through Moses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted November 22, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted November 22, 2015 It's called the Mosaic Law because those were the laws given through Moses. Littleflower, you knew that I know that...There are plenty of people having influence over Christendom, who teach that the "Mosaic laws" are flawed due to human weaknesses.Whereas we know that the many laws which Moses wrote under instruction from God, were an application of the ten basic laws, to a people who were a stumbling block to themselves, because they were blunted and desensitized. And Jesus gives us the example of how Moses had to add divorce laws because the people were too backward in maturity and love that they could not keep their marriage in tact, let alone find a partner with a pure intention.And it's interesting that, Jesus called it "hardness of heart" which is also applied to the condition of the people in Sodom and Gomorrah, who did not care for the unfortunate - they had no basic human compassion. So this state of heart was judged by God as sin, before the written witness in stone (or testament) was given to Moses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts