unworthydude Posted January 11, 2016 Group: Junior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 105 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 61 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/24/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 11, 2016 (edited) 38 minutes ago, MorningGlory said: If you read that passage in context it becomes clear that the people meant they wanted His death; they weren't actually asking for Jesus' blood to be put on them. Mat_27 22 Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified. 23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified. 24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. 25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. 26 Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified. Oops...I don't believe they wanted His literal blood on them, I assumed it was his guilt as you believe too. I just used the same language the text used even though it meant guilt. Sorry for the confusion. I'll get rid of that side note as it doesn't really have much to do with what I was saying anyways. I came across it and found it interesting how the people wanted the guilt of Jesus's death upon them. That is crazy to me. Edited January 11, 2016 by unworthydude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted January 11, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.68 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 11, 2016 1 hour ago, unworthydude said: Oops...I don't believe they wanted His literal blood on them, I assumed it was his guilt as you believe too. I just used the same language the text used even though it meant guilt. Sorry for the confusion. I'll get rid of that side note as it doesn't really have much to do with what I was saying anyways. I came across it and found it interesting how the people wanted the guilt of Jesus's death upon them. That is crazy to me. let someone's blood be upon someone is a euphemism for assigning guilt and responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thallasa Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 11 hours ago, other one said: That's way overboard. .... downright tacky.. No it's not . An individual who has no talent , he steals his ideas from truly wise but more humble people to make a fortune . He misleads masses of people with false ideas . I only condemn this one . India has many wise people . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted January 11, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,265 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,993 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 11, 2016 3 hours ago, Thallasa said: No it's not . An individual who has no talent , he steals his ideas from truly wise but more humble people to make a fortune . He misleads masses of people with false ideas . I only condemn this one . India has many wise people . Who are you speaking of...... Spock, Shoebat or the person who wrote the other article...... or me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thallasa Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 1 hour ago, other one said: Who are you speaking of...... Spock, Shoebat or the person who wrote the other article...... or me. Deepak Chopra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Zion* Posted January 11, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 154 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 3,245 Content Per Day: 0.78 Reputation: 2,397 Days Won: 9 Joined: 12/09/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/11/1984 Author Share Posted January 11, 2016 Eh?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted January 11, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 11, 2016 15 hours ago, unworthydude said: So, I'll try and give a stab at it again. You've made some great arguments. In trying to find an answer as to why Israel would be guilty of 'all the slain' or how anybody could be guilty of "all the slain" is difficult but I think the best answer is in seeing that the law was a whole unit to be kept. I understand your approach but I don't really see the need to pin the guilt of the blood of all who have been slain on Israel or anyone else. The spiritual leaders are guilty of the righteous blood as was pointed out earlier. The verse in Revelation doesn't speak to guilt when it mentions all who have been slain. And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth. Revelation 18:24 Babylon (the kingdom of darkness) and her followers (the ungodly) are the objects of God's judgment. We are exhorted to shun the influence of ungodliness. I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues." Revelation 18:4 The plagues are poured out on the ungodly who side with the man of sin. So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth; and it became a loathsome and malignant sore on the people who had the mark of the beast and who worshiped his image. Revelation 16:2 I do agree though that there is also a city which epitomizes ungodliness which is referred to as Babylon. We will know this city for sure when the 10 horns destroy it per Revelation 17:16-18. At this point in time, I'd lean toward NYC but time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unworthydude Posted January 16, 2016 Group: Junior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 105 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 61 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/24/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 16, 2016 (edited) inchrist, I readily acknowledge that God will rescue His remnant from the destruction that will come upon Jerusalem. Your repeating the defensive verses were not without agreement on my part. It was nice to see you acknowledge that Israel will suffer some kind of judgment. Although I don't think you have gone far enough. Their defense will follow on the back of a terrible day of wrath, called Jacob's Trouble. Jer 31:1-2 "At that time, declares the LORD, I will be the God of all the clans of Israel, and they shall be my people." (2) Thus says the LORD: "The people who survived the sword found grace in the wilderness; when Israel sought for rest, Eze 6:9 then those of you who escape will remember me among the nations where they are carried captive, how I have been broken over their whoring heart that has departed from me and over their eyes that go whoring after their idols. And they will be loathsome in their own sight for the evils that they have committed, for all their abominations. Jer 31:7 For thus says the LORD: "Sing aloud with gladness for Jacob, and raise shouts for the chief of the nations; proclaim, give praise, and say, 'O LORD, save your people, the remnant of Israel.' Eze 14:21-22 "For thus says the Lord GOD: How much more when I send upon Jerusalem my four disastrous acts of judgment, sword, famine, wild beasts, and pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast! (22) But behold, some survivors will be left in it, sons and daughters who will be brought out; behold, when they come out to you, and you see their ways and their deeds, you will be consoled for the disaster that I have brought upon Jerusalem, for all that I have brought upon it. If I am supposed to be confused about the two cities then that would make you unconfused? So let's see... you believe that Jerusalem will be suffer a latter day judgement but yet it won't be anything big, even though God is bringing ALL nations against it, right? Rather, you teach that it will be some other unheard of Islamic nation, who's not God's people, who will be worth more judgment than the one who murdered Jesus and continues to rebel against the scriptures to this very day. Even though God's says He "remembered her iniquities" Rev. 18:5. I am trying to be consistent with the fact that God foretold of all the disasters that would come upon His rebellious people all the way back in Deuteronomy 28-30. Somehow I missed where your proof is more persuasive. You say that you have no doubt that Jerusalem will be judged but did you know that God is not just going to judge them as before? It will be as He as never done before. Eze 5:9 And because of all your abominations I will do with you what I have never yet done, and the like of which I will never do again. Jer_30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. If Jerusalem is just a daughter harlot then why do other verses clearly teach the harlotry of God's people? Again, you have to take into account all that it says. I have no idea how you can say that Jerusalem was "merely" the daughter of harlotry. Please read more scripture... Isaiah 1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem... 21. How the faithful city has become a harlot, she that was full of justice! Righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers. Ezekiel 16:2 "Son of man, make known to Jerusalem her abominations..." Jeremiah 2:2 "Go and proclaim in the hearing of Jerusalem, Thus says the LORD, I remember the devotion of your youth, your love as a bride, how you followed me in the wilderness, in a land not sown... 20. "For long ago you broke your yoke and burst your bonds; and you said, 'I will not serve.' Yea, upon every high hill and under every green tree you bowed down as a harlot. Hos 9:1 Rejoice not, O Israel! Exult not like the peoples; for you have played the whore, forsaking your God. You have loved a prostitute's wages on all threshing floors. Eze 16:22 And in all your abominations and your whorings you did not remember the days of your youth, Eze 16:25-26 At the head of every street you built your lofty place and made your beauty an abomination, offering yourself to any passerby and multiplying your whoring. (26) You also played the whore with the Egyptians, your lustful neighbors, multiplying your whoring, to provoke me to anger. Eze 16:28-31 You played the whore also with the Assyrians, because you were not satisfied; yes, you played the whore with them, and still you were not satisfied. (29) You multiplied your whoring also with the trading land of Chaldea, and even with this you were not satisfied. (30) "How sick is your heart, declares the Lord GOD, because you did all these things, the deeds of a brazen prostitute, (31) building your vaulted chamber at the head of every street, and making your lofty place in every square. Yet you were not like a prostitute, because you scorned payment. Eze 16:33-35 Men give gifts to all prostitutes, but you gave your gifts to all your lovers, bribing them to come to you from every side with your whorings. (34) So you were different from other women in your whorings. No one solicited you to play the whore, and you gave payment, while no payment was given to you; therefore you were different. (35) "Therefore, O prostitute, hear the word of the LORD: Eze 16:41 And they shall burn your houses and execute judgments upon you in the sight of many women. I will make you stop playing the whore, and you shall also give payment no more. Eze 20:30 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: Will you defile yourselves after the manner of your fathers and go whoring after their detestable things? The 'daughter' language, in Hosea , is biblical imagery of a harlot heritage. It does not mean that they are not prostitutes themselves. It just means that they have a family line of harlots all the way until the last days. Hosea tells you repeatedly that they have played the whore and it is that whoredom that God will deal with "in that day." Hos 2:1-23 Say to your brothers, "You are my people," and to your sisters, "You have received mercy." (2) "Plead with your mother, plead— for she is not my wife, and I am not her husband— that she put away her whoring from her face, and her adultery from between her breasts; (3) lest I strip her naked and make her as in the day she was born, and make her like a wilderness, and make her like a parched land, and kill her with thirst. (4) Upon her children also I will have no mercy, because they are children of whoredom. (5) For their mother has played the whore; she who conceived them has acted shamefully. For she said, 'I will go after my lovers, who give me my bread and my water, my wool and my flax, my oil and my drink.' (6) Therefore I will hedge up her way with thorns, and I will build a wall against her, so that she cannot find her paths. (7) She shall pursue her lovers but not overtake them, and she shall seek them but shall not find them. Then she shall say, 'I will go and return to my first husband, for it was better for me then than now.' (8) And she did not know that it was I who gave her the grain, the wine, and the oil, and who lavished on her silver and gold, which they used for Baal. (9) Therefore I will take back my grain in its time, and my wine in its season, and I will take away my wool and my flax, which were to cover her nakedness. (10) Now I will uncover her lewdness in the sight of her lovers, and no one shall rescue her out of my hand. (11) And I will put an end to all her mirth, her feasts, her new moons, her Sabbaths, and all her appointed feasts. (12) And I will lay waste her vines and her fig trees, of which she said, 'These are my wages, which my lovers have given me.' I will make them a forest, and the beasts of the field shall devour them. (13) And I will punish her for the feast days of the Baals when she burned offerings to them and adorned herself with her ring and jewelry, and went after her lovers and forgot me, declares the LORD. (14) "Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak tenderly to her. (15) And there I will give her her vineyards and make the Valley of Achor a door of hope. And there she shall answer as in the days of her youth, as at the time when she came out of the land of Egypt. (16) "And in that day, declares the LORD, you will call me 'My Husband,' and no longer will you call me 'My Baal.' (17) For I will remove the names of the Baals from her mouth, and they shall be remembered by name no more. (18) And I will make for them a covenant on that day with the beasts of the field, the birds of the heavens, and the creeping things of the ground. And I will abolish the bow, the sword, and war from the land, and I will make you lie down in safety. (19) And I will betroth you to me forever. I will betroth you to me in righteousness and in justice, in steadfast love and in mercy. (20) I will betroth you to me in faithfulness. And you shall know the LORD. (21) "And in that day I will answer, declares the LORD, I will answer the heavens, and they shall answer the earth, (22) and the earth shall answer the grain, the wine, and the oil, and they shall answer Jezreel, (23) and I will sow her for myself in the land. And I will have mercy on No Mercy, and I will say to Not My People, 'You are my people'; and he shall say, 'You are my God.'" The skeptics of Jesus use the same arguments when they attribute the prophecies to be all just coincidence. I am as sure Babylon is Jerusalem as I am Jesus is the Messiah based on so many prophecies pointing to their last days judgment, restoration and comparisons to each other. Why would the bible record the Beast and his ten horns hating and burning a nation with fire and not be a part of the nations judging Israel as you acknowledge? The entire Bible is Israel-centric. The Bible is a book telling the stories of Israel history and we think that it will just be a slight incident when God brings her into judgment that leads to her reconciliation? A reconciliation that brings Christ back to planet earth? In Hosea the children of the whore are distinct from the children of mercy. Hos 1:6-7 She conceived again and bore a daughter. And the LORD said to him, "Call her name No Mercy, for I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel, to forgive them at all. (7) But I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and I will save them by the LORD their God. I will not save them by bow or by sword or by war or by horses or by horsemen." Who is the biggest whore ever in God's eyes? Eze 16:16 You took some of your garments and made for yourself colorful shrines, and on them played the whore. The like has never been, nor ever shall be. Let's take a look at more "coincidences" between Jerusalem and Babylon to see if their pedigrees 'match up.'... Both Jerusalem and Babylon are destroyed by forces coming from the north. As Jerusalem was judged by Babylon, she is said to again be judged as Babylon. God has hidden this truth within His literature as a means of 'mystery' that must be sought out. As He does with all His scripture. Jer 1:14 Then the Lord said to me, " Out of the north the evil will break forth on all the inhabitants of the land. 15 "For, behold, I am calling all the families of the kingdoms of the north ," declares the Lord; "and they will come, and they will set each one his throne at the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, and against all its walls round about, and against all the cities of Judah... 7:34 "Then I will make to cease from the cities of Judah and from the streets of Jerusalem the voice of joy and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride; for the land will become a ruin... 26:2 ...'Stand in the court of the Lord's house, and speak to all the cities of Judah, who have come to worship [in] the Lord's house... 9 ...'This house will be like Shiloh , and this city will be desolate, without inhabitant' Jer 50:1-4 The word that the LORD spoke concerning Babylon, concerning the land of the Chaldeans, by Jeremiah the prophet: (2) "Declare among the nations and proclaim, set up a banner and proclaim, conceal it not, and say: 'Babylon is taken, Bel is put to shame, Merodach is dismayed. Her images are put to shame, her idols are dismayed.' (3) "For out of the north a nation has come up against her, which shall make her land a desolation, and none shall dwell in it; both man and beast shall flee away. (4) "In those days and in that time, declares the LORD, the people of Israel and the people of Judah shall come together, weeping as they come, and they shall seek the LORD their God. Eze 38:15-16 You will come from your place out of the uttermost parts of the north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great host, a mighty army. (16) You will come up against my people Israel, like a cloud covering the land. In the latter days I will bring you against my land, that the nations may know me, when through you, O Gog, I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. Dan 11:40-41 "At the time of the end, the king of the south shall attack him, but the king of the north shall rush upon him like a whirlwind, with chariots and horsemen, and with many ships. And he shall come into countries and shall overflow and pass through. (41) He shall come into the glorious land. And tens of thousands shall fall, but these shall be delivered out of his hand: Edom and Moab and the main part of the Ammonites. Jerusalem and Babylon both drink from the cup of the Lord's anger. Isai 51:17 Rouse yourself! Rouse yourself! Arise, O Jerusalem, You who have drunk from the Lord's hand the cup of His anger; The chalice of reeling you have drained to the dregs. Reve 16:19 And the great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath. Jerusalem and Babylon's destruction details foretold in same detail. Rev 17:16 And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, Eze 16:38-41 “And I will judge you as women who break wedlock or shed blood are judged; I will bring blood upon you in fury and jealousy. I will also give you into their hand, and they shall throw down your shrines and break down your high places. They shall also strip you of your clothes, take your beautiful jewelry, and leave you naked and bare. They shall also bring up an assembly against you, and they shall stone you with stones and thrust you through with their swords. They shall burn your houses with fire, and execute judgments on you in the sight of many women; and I will make you cease playing the harlot, and you shall no longer hire lovers.” – Mystery Babylon is contrasted with the cities of the nations, which suggests that it is not a gentile nation. Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. – Bridegroom and musicians of Babylon and Jerusalem will cease. You say that these passages are just coincidence but have you considered the imagery and seen how it is used only of Israel? (Rev 18:22-23) And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. We see Babylon having the same language used for Israel's destruction. Jer 25:9-11 behold, I will send for all the tribes of the north, declares the LORD, and for Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants, and against all these surrounding nations. I will devote them to destruction, and make them a horror, a hissing, and an everlasting desolation. (10) Moreover, I will banish from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the grinding of the millstones and the light of the lamp. (11) This whole land shall become a ruin and a waste, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. Even more interesting to me is the reason that this particular judgment would come. About five chapters later the same prediction is made again, and it says: Jer 7:30, 34 “’For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight,’ saith the LORD: ‘They have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it…. Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.’” Babylon and Israel surrounded by "water." The many waters are not physical oceans but a metaphor... Rev_17:15 And the angel said to me, "The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages. The nation of Israel was placed in the midst of the nations and "sits" in the middle of them... Eze 5:5 "Thus says the Lord GOD: This is Jerusalem. I have set her in the center of the nations, with countries all around her. Look at these other verses that show how this prostitute is seated in the midst of peoples, multitudes and nations and languages. Joe_3:11 Hasten and come, all you SURROUNDING nations, and gather yourselves there. Bring down your warriors, O LORD. 12 Let the nations stir themselves up and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; for there I will sit to judge all the SURROUNDING nations. Zec 12:2-3 "Behold, I am about to make Jerusalem a cup of staggering to all the SURROUNDING peoples. The siege of Jerusalem will also be against Judah. (3) On that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples. All who lift it will surely hurt themselves. And all the nations of the earth will gather against it. Zec_12:6 "On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a blazing pot in the midst of wood, like a flaming torch among sheaves. And they shall devour to the right and to the left all the SURROUNDING peoples, while Jerusalem shall again be inhabited in its place, in Jerusalem. Zec_14:14 Even Judah will fight at Jerusalem. And the wealth of all the SURROUNDING nations shall be collected, gold, silver, and garments in great abundance. Eze_11:12 And ye shall know that I am the LORD: for ye have not walked in my statutes, neither executed my judgments, but have done after the manners of the heathen that are ROUND ABOUT YOU. Eze_16:37 Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them ROUND ABOUT against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness. Eze 28:24 "And for the house of Israel there shall be no more a brier to prick or a thorn to hurt them among all their NEIGHBORS who have treated them with contempt. Then they will know that I am the Lord GOD. Eze 28:26 And they shall dwell securely in it, and they shall build houses and plant vineyards. They shall dwell securely, when I execute judgments upon all their NEIGHBORS who have treated them with contempt. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God." Who kills the prophets? Babylon and the city of Jerusalem identify as both who have killed their prophets. It's consistently taught in both testaments... Rev_16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink. It is what they deserve!" Rev_18:20 Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, for God has given judgment for you against her!" Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets..." Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? 1Th 2:14-15 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews, (15) who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind Matthew 23:31 "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Rom 11:3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." Neh 9:26 "Nevertheless, they were disobedient and rebelled against you and cast your law behind their back and killed your prophets, who had warned them in order to turn them back to you, and they committed great blasphemies. 1 Kings 19:10 He said, "I have been very zealous for the LORD, the God of hosts; for the sons of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars and killed Your prophets with the sword And I alone am left; and they seek my life, to take it away." 1 Kings 19:14 Then he said, "I have been very zealous for the LORD, the God of hosts; for the sons of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars and killed Your prophets with the sword. And I alone am left; and they seek my life, to take it away." Jerusalem and Babylon attacked by global alliance of nations in the last days. Rev 17:16-17 And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, (17) for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. Zec 14:2-4 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. (3) Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. (4) On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward. Eze 38:15-17 You will come from your place out of the uttermost parts of the north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great host, a mighty army. (16) You will come up against my people Israel, like a cloud covering the land. In the latter days I will bring you against my land, that the nations may know me, when through you, O Gog, I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. (17) "Thus says the Lord GOD: Are you he of whom I spoke in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel, who in those days prophesied for years that I would bring you against them? Jerusalem the whore and Babylon the whore are both arrayed in luxury. Rev 17:4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. Rev 18:16 "Alas, alas, for the great city that was clothed in fine linen, in purple and scarlet, adorned with gold, with jewels, and with pearls! Eze 16:10-19 I clothed you also with embroidered cloth and shod you with fine leather. I wrapped you in fine linen and covered you with silk. (11) And I adorned you with ornaments and put bracelets on your wrists and a chain on your neck. (12) And I put a ring on your nose and earrings in your ears and a beautiful crown on your head. (13) Thus you were adorned with gold and silver, and your clothing was of fine linen and silk and embroidered cloth. You ate fine flour and honey and oil. You grew exceedingly beautiful and advanced to royalty. (14) And your renown went forth among the nations because of your beauty, for it was perfect through the splendor that I had bestowed on you, declares the Lord GOD. (15) "But you trusted in your beauty and played the whore because of your renown and lavished your whorings on any passerby; your beauty became his. (16) You took some of your garments and made for yourself colorful shrines, and on them played the whore. The like has never been, nor ever shall be. (17) You also took your beautiful jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given you, and made for yourself images of men, and with them played the whore. (18) And you took your embroidered garments to cover them, and set my oil and my incense before them. (19) Also my bread that I gave you—I fed you with fine flour and oil and honey—you set before them for a pleasing aroma; and so it was, declares the Lord GOD. Eze 16:38-41 “And I will judge you as women who break wedlock or shed blood are judged; I will bring blood upon you in fury and jealousy. I will also give you into their hand, and they shall throw down your shrines and break down your high places. They shall also strip you of your clothes, take your beautiful jewelry, and leave you naked and bare. They shall also bring up an assembly against you, and they shall stone you with stones and thrust you through with their swords. They shall burn your houses with fire, and execute judgments on you in the sight of many women; and I will make you cease playing the harlot, and you shall no longer hire lovers.” – Isa 3:16-26 The LORD said: Because the daughters of Zion are haughty and walk with outstretched necks, glancing wantonly with their eyes, mincing along as they go, tinkling with their feet, (17) therefore the Lord will strike with a scab the heads of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will lay bare their secret parts. (18) In that day the Lord will take away the finery of the anklets, the headbands, and the crescents; (19) the pendants, the bracelets, and the scarves; (20) the headdresses, the armlets, the sashes, the perfume boxes, and the amulets; (21) the signet rings and nose rings; (22) the festal robes, the mantles, the cloaks, and the handbags; (23) the mirrors, the linen garments, the turbans, and the veils. (24) Instead of perfume there will be rottenness; and instead of a belt, a rope; and instead of well-set hair, baldness; and instead of a rich robe, a skirt of sackcloth; and branding instead of beauty. (25) Your men shall fall by the sword and your mighty men in battle. (26) And her gates shall lament and mourn; empty, she shall sit on the ground. Jerusalem will come to an end? Once we see that it is the unfaithful whore of Jerusalem that God will judge and bring to an end, then we can see clearly that God will have mercy on His people afterwards. Otherwise, you have a contradiction that you must deal with. For example, below, you have two passages talking about Israel, both speaking about what will happen in the last days in their contexts... Jer_5:18 "But even in those days, declares the LORD, I will not make a full end of you. Hos 1:4 And the LORD said to him, "Call his name Jezreel, for in just a little while I will punish the house of Jehu for the blood of Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel. Rationally, how can Jerusalem suffer and "end" and yet be said to be the future throne of the Messiah? Your premise assumes that I believe Jerusalem is just evil without taking into consideration of their defense. But, I propose that Israel as a nation will be destroyed but yet a portion of the people will be faithful when they realize and mourn when Christ saves them. They have a location and surviving people who will be restored unto holiness. God will not make "a full end" of them although they as a nation will end. The old Jerusalem will be destroyed and give way to a restored Jerusalem under Jesus. Much like the doctrine of the salvation in Corinthians.. 2Co_5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. When we get saved, our old man must be die so that the new man can live. So too, the old Jerusalem must be destroyed for the new to be established. How do you make sense of these passages without harmonizing them? It's easy to answer for if you acknowledge that God will destroy the unfaithful whore of Israel but yet leave for Himself a remnant. As He did though previous judgments that they suffered through. We must not dismiss this by making light of their judgment when all nations will be brought together to judge them. Minimizing their judgment does not work as you suggest. Hos 1:4 And the LORD said to him, "Call his name Jezreel, for in just a little while I will punish the house of Jehu for the blood of Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel. Hos 1:5 And on that day I will break the bow of Israel in the Valley of Jezreel." Hos 1:6-7 She conceived again and bore a daughter. And the LORD said to him, "Call her name No Mercy, for I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel, to forgive them at all. (7) Eze 7:1-3 The word of the LORD came to me: (2) "And you, O son of man, thus says the Lord GOD to the land of Israel: An end! The end has come upon the four corners of the land. (3) Now the end is upon you, and I will send my anger upon you; I will judge you according to your ways, and I will punish you for all your abominations. Eze 12:19-20 And say to the people of the land, Thus says the Lord GOD concerning the inhabitants of Jerusalem in the land of Israel: They shall eat their bread with anxiety, and drink water in dismay. In this way her land will be stripped of all it contains, on account of the violence of all those who dwell in it. (20) And the inhabited cities shall be laid waste, and the land shall become a desolation; and you shall know that I am the LORD. Zec 14:11 And it shall be inhabited, for there shall never again be a decree of utter destruction. Jerusalem shall dwell in security. God's great plan is reveal Himself in judgment and mercy on Israel to vindicate His holiness. Eze 5:5-8 "Thus says the Lord GOD: This is Jerusalem. I have set her in the center of the nations, with countries all around her. (6) And she has rebelled against my rules by doing wickedness more than the nations, and against my statutes more than the countries all around her; for they have rejected my rules and have not walked in my statutes. (7) Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Because you are more turbulent than the nations that are all around you, and have not walked in my statutes or obeyed my rules, and have not even acted according to the rules of the nations that are all around you, (8) therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I, even I, am against you. And I will execute judgments in your midst in the sight of the nations. Eze 20:37-38 I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant. (38) I will purge out the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against me. I will bring them out of the land where they sojourn, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD. You say it doesn't make sense for Jerusalem to be Babylon because "the earthly Jerusalem is a type or pattern for the New Jerusalem which is contrasted at every point with Babylon." This "type or pattern" that is contrasted between Babylon and the New Jerusalem is exactly that which matches the earthly Jerusalem in scripture. How can you say that earthly Jerusalem will be judged but yet maintain that earthly Jerusalem is not contrasted with the New Jerusalem? I don't get it. If they're judged then how can they be similar? Please define your typology or pattern for both New Jerusalem and Earthly Jerusalem that accounts for their judgment and holiness. You are absolutely right when you say that Babylon is contrasted with the New Jerusalem. When one compares the earthly Harlot Jerusalem, there is a clear Biblical contrast with the New Jerusalem. It almost seems as if Jerusalem herself is "born-again" in prophecy. Why have a "New Jerusalem" if the old one is still around? Below, God even contrasts their faithfulness with their later harlotry... Jeremiah 2:2 "Go and proclaim in the hearing of Jerusalem, Thus says the LORD, I remember the devotion of your youth, your love as a bride, how you followed me in the wilderness, in a land not sown... 20. "For long ago you broke your yoke and burst your bonds; and you said, 'I will not serve.' Yea, upon every high hill and under every green tree you bowed down as a harlot. Of course, once you have the committed belief that Mystery Babylon is Basra, all these passages can be overlooked for a more titillating trendy theory. Modern Zionism is not current to Gods' word. I do believe in a future Jerusalem but a gloried, holy Zion only after Christ returns. Nobody Christian should be extreme by being anti-Semitic. The issues with Israel should not be speculative but solely based and balanced by scripture. On the other end of the extreme spectrum, we should not be overly sympathetic with Israel either. Paul defined for us how we are to view modern Israel in Romans 11. We are to love and honor the Jews but also realize that they are in god's eyes enemies of the cross. Rom 11:28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. This sober assessment must be taken into account. Both perspectives are from God's point of view. We can't believe that they are simply the innocent victims to an antichrist when God has said that He will pour out His wrath on them in order to save them after. God that has not forgotten their sin so we should not emphasis an eschatological perspective that supports Israel without this consideration. We do see Israel as valiant but only after they have gone through judgment and Christ returns leading the armies of God against the nations.. Num 24:14-19 And now, behold, I am going to my people. Come, I will let you know what this people will do to your people in the latter days." (15) And he took up his discourse and said, "The oracle of Balaam the son of Beor, the oracle of the man whose eye is opened, (16) the oracle of him who hears the words of God, and knows the knowledge of the Most High, who sees the vision of the Almighty, falling down with his eyes uncovered: (17) I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near: a star shall come out of Jacob, and a scepter shall rise out of Israel; it shall crush the forehead of Moab and break down all the sons of Sheth. (18) Edom shall be dispossessed; Seir also, his enemies, shall be dispossessed. Israel is doing valiantly. (19) And one from Jacob shall exercise dominion and destroy the survivors of cities!" Here are links to where I have used some of their good arguments from scripture and even added to them. I don't hold to everything expressed, just what I argue for posted here and what I am convinced of. http://www.lookup.org/mysterybabylon.htm http://chriswhiteministries.com/MysteryBabylon/Mystery%20Babylon%20-%20The%20Eschatological%20City%20of%20Jerusalem3.pdf Edited January 17, 2016 by unworthydude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FresnoJoe Posted January 16, 2016 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 207 Topic Count: 60 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,651 Content Per Day: 1.17 Reputation: 5,761 Days Won: 4 Joined: 01/31/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/04/1943 Share Posted January 16, 2016 Beloved, Keep Your Eye On Jerusalem Jerusalem—built as a city that is bound firmly together, to which the tribes go up, the tribes of the Lord, as was decreed for Israel, to give thanks to the name of the Lord. There thrones for judgment were set, the thrones of the house of David. Psalms 122:3-5 (English Standard Version) For When The Remnant And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. Zechariah 13:8-9 (King James Version) Turns To Jesus Then I will return to my lair until they have borne their guilt and seek my face-- in their misery they will earnestly seek me." Hosea 5:15 (New International Version) Jesus Comes Back~! I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD. The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid. Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem. The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more. In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack. The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. Zephaniah 3:12-17 (King James Version) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted January 17, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.34 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 17, 2016 1 hour ago, FresnoJoe said: Beloved, Keep Your Eye On Jerusalem Exactly, Fresonjoe. Jerusalem will be the centre of all earthly activity in the future, and the battle between Christ and Satan will be fought outside Jerusalem. The other cities mentioned do play their part, but for God and Christ, Jerusalem has the greatest significance both now and for eternity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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