Vatican: Jews can be saved without Christ

[OldSchool2]

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

But your response doesn't address why I said that the NT can't be reconciled with Judaism.  I gave theological reasons why.  You can'r refute those so you try deflect with what amounts to a non-response.    Why don't you go  back and address the specific reasons I gave for why the two are not compatible???    Stop trying to change the subject or obfuscate with your responses.     I wasn't talking about the OT and the NT.  I was talking about Judaism and the NT.

I think you know you're wrong, but can't admit it.  You are just too committed to an argument that you can't defend.

I think you're projecting.

"... the word 'torah' can also be used to refer to the entire Jewish bible (the body of scripture known to non-Jews as the Old Testament and to Jews as the Tanakh or Written Torah), or in its broadest sense, to the whole body of Jewish law and teachings."

BTW, I am a non-Jew.

[Guest shiloh357]

4 minutes ago, OldSchool2 said:

I think you're projecting.

"... the word 'torah' can also be used to refer to the entire Jewish bible (the body of scripture known to non-Jews as the Old Testament and to Jews as the Tanakh or Written Torah), or in its broadest sense, to the whole body of Jewish law and teachings."

BTW, I am a non-Jew.

Again, I am talking about reconciling Judaism with the NT.  I am not talking about the OT.   Judaism and the OT are not interchangeable.   The OT is not Judaism.   You keep trying to confuse the issue because you can't refute what I said about Judaism.   Stop trying to change the subject to the OT.   The issue is about the fact that Judaism, a post biblical religion cannot be made compatible with the NT.

Please show how a religion that rejects Jesus and the Gospel is compatible with the NT.   I would really like to see how you make those two fit together.

[other one]

6 hours ago, inchrist said:

I'm reserving comments for now but I will post again from the document on this matter

27. The covenant that God has offered Israel is irrevocable. "God is not man, that he should lie"

 

I totally agree with that, however the covenant that God offered Israel does not pertain to eternal life, it pertains to physical life in the here and now, not the hearafter....    and if one wants to be part of that first covenant, I see no reason why they should not.....     but if they want eternal life with God, they will have to accept Jesus like everyone else.

[Guest shiloh357]

55 minutes ago, other one said:

I totally agree with that, however the covenant that God offered Israel does not pertain to eternal life, it pertains to physical life in the here and now, not the hearafter....    and if one wants to be part of that first covenant, I see no reason why they should not.....     but if they want eternal life with God, they will have to accept Jesus like everyone else.

Exactly.   The eternal irrevocable covenant pertains to the Land promises.  It is not salvific in nature.

[SavedOnebyGrace]

Without the fulfilled prophesies of the Old Testament, all Gentile people would be lost.  The Torah and other Jewish writings that make up the Hebrew Old Testament, provide the foundation for Christianity.  It's really that simple.  This was / is God's plan of salvation.  My faith is in Jesus, the promised Messiah fulfilling the Old Testament prophetic writings.

[Guest shiloh357]

4 minutes ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Without the fulfilled prophesies of the Old Testament, all Gentile people would be lost.  The Torah and other Jewish writings that make up the Hebrew Old Testament, provide the foundation for Christianity.  It's really that simple.  This was / is God's plan of salvation.  My faith is in Jesus, the promised Messiah fulfilling the Old Testament prophetic writings.

Exactly.

[OldSchool2]

4 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Again, I am talking about reconciling Judaism with the NT.  I am not talking about the OT.   Judaism and the OT are not interchangeable.   The OT is not Judaism.   You keep trying to confuse the issue because you can't refute what I said about Judaism.   Stop trying to change the subject to the OT.   The issue is about the fact that Judaism, a post biblical religion cannot be made compatible with the NT....

"... cannot be made compatible"?

As the Gospels quote heavily from the OT, the NT includes Torah scriptures ; therefore it's impossible for Judaism to be "post biblical" when so much of it is found in the NT.

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, OldSchool2 said:

"... cannot be made compatible"?

As the Gospels quote heavily from the OT, the NT includes Torah scriptures ; therefore it's impossible for Judaism to be "post biblical" when so much of it is found in the NT.

Judaism isn't the religion of the OT.   Judaism isnt' in the NT.  Judaism didn't exist when Jesus was on earth.  The apostles did not observe Judaism. 

The OT isn't Judaism.  Judaism isn't the OT.   The NT heavily quotes from the OT, but the NT doesn't quote from Judaism.   The NT knows nothing of Judaism.  

[Ezra]

1 minute ago, shiloh357 said:

The OT isn't Judaism.  Judaism isn't the OT.   The NT heavily quotes from the OT, but the NT doesn't quote from Judaism.   The NT knows nothing of Judaism.  

One would expect all Christian to know this. Judaism (or Rabbinic Judaism) is the religion of the Pharisees, which was condemned again and again by Christ. At the heart of Judaism is a rejection of Christ, and an elevation of the Talmud over the Torah.  But dictionaries do not make that distinction and state that it includes the religious practices of the Hebrews before the Babylonian captivity.

[OldSchool2]

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

Judaism isn't the religion of the OT.   Judaism isnt' in the NT.  Judaism didn't exist when Jesus was on earth.  The apostles did not observe Judaism. 

The OT isn't Judaism.  Judaism isn't the OT.   The NT heavily quotes from the OT, but the NT doesn't quote from Judaism.   The NT knows nothing of Judaism.  

Ju·da·ism

NOUN

1.

the monotheistic religion of the Jews, having its ethical, ceremonial, and legal foundation in the precepts of the Old Testament and in the teachings and commentaries of the rabbis as found chiefly in the Talmud....

 

Dictionary.com