Where is the 3rd Heaven?

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, inchrist said:

Ok 

Matthew 5:48

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

So i must be perfect as our sky father is?

Matthew 6:1

Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

So I get rewards from Sky Father?

Sky Father Mythology, you need to somehow come to the realization God does not yet dwell with mankind any where in our earth or clouds or our sky...We only see this in Revelation. 

 

 

And what is above the sky? What heaven do we call that?

Job 22:12 will give you a clue

Is not God in the height of heaven? And see the highest stars, how lofty they are!

What heaven is this? 

Could it be we have more than one heaven? A heaven above our heaven the sky?  Where the heights of stars dwell?

 

Oh, don't be so ridiculous.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
KJV

An omnipresent God IS in the sky, is He not? Don't confuse that truth with the ridiculous notion that I'm saying He's ONLY in the sky!

Matthew 6:1
1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
KJV

Same thing with this verse (and all the others like it). Just because He is our Father who is in the sky doesn't mean that our Father is ONLY in the sky! GET A GRIP!

You won't give my opinion an honest, open-minded investigation, because you don't WANT to give it an honest, open-minded investigation.

And, THIS statement, "Sky Father Mythology, you need to somehow come to the realization God does not yet dwell with mankind any where in our earth or clouds or our sky...We only see this in Revelation," only serves to tell me that you don't know what you're talking about, because, ONCE AGAIN, you don't understand that God is OMNIPRESENT!!! Yes, He IS in our earth and in our clouds and in our sky! And, we don't have to wait for Revelation to be fulfilled for Him to be there! He has ALWAYS been there!

And, "EPouranios" means "ABOVE the sky," which is translated as "ABOVE the heaven," if the translation is honest. Therefore, it's not "another heaven"; it's ABOVE "the heaven!" It's just like the Greek: "Epouranios" is not another "ouranos." It is EPI "ho ouranos!" "Above the sky" is NOT another "sky!" It is ABOVE "the sky!"

Y'know, you've done nothing but belittle my thoughts since you started posting on this subject, and you have continued your attack page after page. Just don't talk to me anymore. I kept trying to get through to you, but you won't have anything to do with being rational; therefore, I can only come to the conclusion that you're being a troll.

[Retrobyter]

22 hours ago, inchrist said:

Yes I have simply because of your arrogance, interesting how you can dish it out but cant seem to take it back. perhaps if you tried to be a little polite, the exchange would of been different, since I've already addressed you on this issue.

I AM proud of the information with which I've been entrusted, but the information is not mine. I am proud of my Father's revelation to me. It's not because there's anything good or important in me; it's only because I've been listening and had the sense not to reject it outright at first blush. It takes a logical mind to follow the definition changes that were shared with me and the memory of each change has to be both embraced and used in every case from then on. That's difficult for me to do because it was so easy for me to slip back into the old definitions I'd always known since childhood.

You can call it arrogance, if you'd like, but the truth is that it was HARD WORK. Just because it's not recognized or appreciated by people like you doesn't change a thing. So, whatever, dude. Say what you want to say, but I would strongly suggest that you give God's work in my life SOME respect.

23 hours ago, inchrist said:

I'm translating it how you want me to...heavenly (sky) as you are teaching... heavenly father means sky father correct?

Since Matthew 5:48 uses the word Ouranos

Not necessarily. See, it depends GREATLY on the English version you are using. In using the NIV as you have, you read the verse like this:

Matthew 5:48
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. 
NIV

However, the KJV words it like this:

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
KJV

The Greek words are these:

48 Esesthe oun humeis teleioi hoos ho Pateer humoon ho ouranois teleios estin.

48 Esesthe = 48 Be
oun = therefore
humeis = you
teleioi = complete/mature
hoos = like/as
ho = the
Pateer = Father
humoon = of-you/your
ho = the-[One]
ouranois = in-skies
teleios = complete/mature
estin. = is.

So, the Greek doesn't say "heavenly Father." And, technically, it doesn't use the word "ouranos"; it uses the word "ouranoi," the plural form. It doesn't say He RESIDES there; it doesn't say that He is ONLY there. In fact, the sense that I get from this verse is that, in light of the information that Peter gave us in 2 Peter 3:3-13, God our Father TRANSCENDS time and space by using the plural form! I believe that the "heavens," especially in the Hebrew dual form (exactly 2) and not the plural form (3 or more), refers to the morning sky and the evening sky together as what we see from the surface of the earth. Greek, however, only has the "2 or more" plural, which means it could be talking about the skies before the Flood, as well as after the Flood and before the Fire, and include the skies after the Fire, as well.

So, no, it doesn't mean "sky Father."

On February 2, 2016 at 10:18 PM, inchrist said:

So was Zeus by the way. What's your point?

Zeus, was NOT "omnipresent." Where'd you get THAT ridiculous notion?! If things could be done behind His back by the other gods, then he certainly was NOT "omnipresent!" He was a LIMITED god, limited in SO many ways!

On February 2, 2016 at 10:18 PM, inchrist said:

What you seem to fail to recognise is God has restrained himself though being everywhere as explained with the tabernacle a fixed location ( VERY IMPORTANT) where God dwells which is a shadow of the heavenly [Spirtual] not sky!!!!

A God who dwells also outside of His own creation

There it is AGAIN! God has NOT "restrained Himself" ANYWHERE! READ Shlomoh's (Solomon's) words again! REALLY LISTEN to them! Hear them as though brand new to you:

1 Kings 8:26-30
26 And now, O God of Israel, let thy word, I pray thee, be verified, which thou spakest unto thy servant David my father.
27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
28 Yet have thou respect unto the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O Lord my God, to hearken unto the cry and to the prayer, which thy servant prayeth before thee to day:
29 That thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, even toward the place of which thou hast said, My name shall be there: that thou mayest hearken unto the prayer which thy servant shall make toward this place.
30 And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place: and when thou hearest, forgive.
KJV

2 Chronicles 2:5-6
5 And the house which I build is great: for great is our God above all gods.
6 But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?
KJV

2 Chronicles 6:17-21
17 Now then, O Lord God of Israel, let thy word be verified, which thou hast spoken unto thy servant David.
18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!
19 Have respect therefore to the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O Lord my God, to hearken unto the cry and the prayer which thy servant prayeth before thee:
20 That thine eyes may be open upon this house day and night, upon the place whereof thou hast said that thou wouldest put thy name there; to hearken unto the prayer which thy servant prayeth toward this place.
21 Hearken therefore unto the supplications of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, which they shall make toward this place: hear thou from thy dwelling place, even from heaven; and when thou hearest, forgive.
KJV

God has NEVER "lived" in either the Tabernacle or the Temple! Both the Tabernacle (Tent) and the Temple (House) are merely FOCAL POINTS FOR HUMANS TO PRAY! That was their purpose! Read the whole chapters of 1 Kings 8 and 2 Chronicles 6 and may you come away from your reading with a new appreciation for the Temple.

On February 2, 2016 at 10:18 PM, inchrist said:

But if you truly believe God is physically with us now...then I must of missed Revelation....when did Revelation occur? Because clearly I've been asleep all this time.

Then, it's high time you WAKE UP! God has ALWAYS been with us and ALWAYS WILL be with us! However, ...

John 4:24
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
KJV

If that is new to you, then it's time to recognize His TOTAL INVOLVEMENT with His Creation!

(More later...)

[Retrobyter]

On February 3, 2016 at 3:37 AM, inchrist said:

I don’t refute God has shown you things, nor am I disappreciative of the work you have put in. In fact I have all respect for people who have put effort in their doctrines/ theories. HOWEVER, you are not above testing nor is your theory or any doctrine, NOR do you have a monopoly on God, God speaks to all of us.
This does not give you the licence to be condicending and insulting towards people ( troll?? I mean really, surely you’re a bit more mature than this), that I DO NOT have respect for. The message is very clear your theory is not above testing, so there is no reason to be defensive. If you are correct your correct, then we have all learned something, if you are wrong, then you learned something. Its a win win for everyone. 

Cool. I'm good with all of this. Let's proceed. First, regarding "troll," a troll is defined as "a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,^[1]extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response^[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion,^[3] often for their own amusement." I don't mean to be condescending or insulting, but if it's dished out to me, I feel it's fair to dish it right back! Remember "sky father mythology?" I mean REALLY! That is VERY INSULTING to me! So, if you want to avoid being called a troll, then don't call me a Zeus worshipper!

Secondly, be careful how you treat the Greek language. Not all Greek is the same. Koine Greek that is used in the Bible is different than the Classical (Attic) Greek. It's just the commoners' Greek, and it is much less careful about some of the grammatical points. On the other hand, what should be noted here is that the Koine is often used to translate the Aramaic, and the thought patterns behind the Greek are definitely Hebrew. Either the original Aramaic text was translated into the Koine Greek OR it was written by people who could communicate in Koine Greek but thought in Hebrew or Aramaic as their mother tongue.

On February 3, 2016 at 3:37 AM, inchrist said:

This is word play, the message is still the same, "heavenly father."

I can change the structure of the wording to: Father heavenly perfect as you should be

The message is still the same. 

Matthew 6:1
your Father who is in heaven. ( your Father who is in the skies)

Matthew 6:9
which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy ( which art in the skies, Hallowed by thy name)

And yet you keep referring it to our skies, sky father, your not referring it to our “universe”, or “spiritual heaven”, as you reject the concepts, the only type of heaven left is “sky”. Whether that be pre, post flood, and the skies after the fire it all relates according to you to our biosphere. There is no other heaven but sky for you. The text keep saying in heaven is God, heavenly father and so forth, since there is only one heaven being sky or biosphere for you, therefore the text keeps referring to a sky father - this you can not get away from.

Not at all! "Heavenly Father" is NOT the same as "Father who is in the skies." NOT EVEN CLOSE! "Heavenly" in the KJV comes from either "ouranios" (NT:3770), meaning "pertaining to the sky," OR from "epouranios" (NT:2032), meaning "(pertaining to) above the sky." From the English versions, one cannot tell which "heavenly" is which. Both are few in number within the Scriptures, so I can give you both lists of references:

ouranios: (6)

Matthew 6:14
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
KJV
Matthew 6:26
26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
KJV
Matthew 6:32
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
KJV
Matthew 15:13
13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
KJV
Luke 2:13
13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
KJV
Acts 26:19
19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
KJV

epouranios: (20)

Matthew 18:35
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
KJV
John 3:12
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
KJV
1 Corinthians 15:40
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
KJV
1 Corinthians 15:40
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
KJV
1 Corinthians 15:48
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
KJV
1 Corinthians 15:48
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
KJV
1 Corinthians 15:49
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
KJV
Ephesians 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
KJV
Ephesians 1:20
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
KJV
Ephesians 2:6
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
KJV
Ephesians 3:10
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
KJV
Ephesians 6:12
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
KJV
Philippians 2:10
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
KJV
2 Timothy 4:18
18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
KJV
Hebrews 3:1
3 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
KJV
Hebrews 6:4
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
KJV
Hebrews 8:5
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
KJV
Hebrews 9:23
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
KJV
Hebrews 11:16
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
KJV
Hebrews 12:22
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
KJV

Each of these verses is PREGNANT with information, but let's start with the simpler ones first:

The ones in 1 Corinthians 15 are very clearly about space:

1 Corinthians 15:39-49
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
KJV

Therefore, this word, epouranios, translated "celestial" and "heavenly," is about the area where the sun, moon, and stars exist.

It may be harder for you to grasp since it is not as clear in the English as in the Greek, but Matthew 6 is very clear about the atmosphere:

Matthew 6:9-34
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven (en tois ouranois), Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven (en ouranoo).
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly (ouranios) Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;
18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.
19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
26 Behold the fowls of the air (ta peteina tou ouranou): for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly (ouranios) Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly (ouranios) Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
KJV

The whole point here is in the Lord's Prayer: "Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven (en tois ouranois)." "Let your will be done upon the earth as it is being done within the atmosphere (out of our reach)." We human beings have NEVER been able to influence the weather (except in small ways, like seeding the clouds with silver iodide, potassium iodide, or dry ice from an airplane to induce rain). We can report on the weather after the fact, and we can watch the patterns of weather and predict most of the weather based upon those observations, but we cannot CHANGE the weather! That is TOTALLY in GOD'S control! (And, it's NOT "Mother Nature's" control, as some weathermen and women say!)

Also, the connection is hard for us to see in the English (thanks to the way things get translated), but the "air" of verse 26 is RELATED to "heavenly" in the SAME VERSE! He is not the Father IN the atmosphere; He is "ho Pateer humoon ho ouranios," "the Father of-you the-One pertaining-to-the-sky!"

The underlying point of this entire context is that God is not some distant, indifferent Deity, but He is CLOSE to us and understands our needs! Where on the planet can you go where you don't have a sky? He is trying to get His disciples to see that one can ALWAYS trust God in a very personal manner! He is INDEED our "Father," and our welfare MATTERS TO HIM!

Also, let's look at one other Greek word to drill it into our brains just a little more, the word "mesouraneema": This word is ALWAYS translated (in the KJV) as "midst of heaven," but it is a contraction of "meso-," meaning "middle," and "ouraneema," a participial form of "ouranos." 

It's only found in three locations, all within the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ:

Revelation 8:13
13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
KJV
Revelation 14:6, 7
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
KJV
Revelation 19:17
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
KJV

The first two are not very conclusive, since we don't know much about "angels" nor where they are able to fly, but the third IS the "limiting reagent" (so to speak) of the equation: Where do the birds fly if not IN OUR ATMOSPHERE? (The other two ALSO must be talking about the atmosphere, because of a little truth made popular by the movie Aliens: "In space, no one can hear you scream!")

 

On February 3, 2016 at 3:37 AM, inchrist said:

And yet you keep referring it to our skies, sky father, you're not referring it to our “universe”, or “spiritual heaven”, as you reject the concepts, the only type of heaven left is “sky”. Whether that be pre, post flood, and the skies after the fire it all relates according to you to our biosphere. There is no other heaven but sky for you. The text keep saying in heaven is God, heavenly father and so forth, since there is only one heaven being sky or biosphere for you, therefore the text keeps referring to a sky father - this you can not get away from.

Oh, but I CAN! Just look at the "epouranios" verses above! Matthew 18:35 calls God Yeshua`s "heavenly Father" in the Textus Receptus; that is, "ho Pateer mou ho epouranios"," "the Father of-me the-One ABOVE-the-skies!"

On February 3, 2016 at 3:37 AM, inchrist said:

I have (read Solomon's words again), hence why God sent His Shekinah Glory. There is a vital point you're missing in this. The entire point of the tabernacle was to show how God regulates himself with humanity and how He governs His creation.

Moses was shown heavenly items ( Spiritual)  to which he was to use as the pattern for their earthly counterparts:

Exodus 25:8-9 - "And let them make Me a sanctuary that I may dwell ( Shekinah) among them. According to the pattern of the pattern of the tabernacle and the pattern of all its furnishings, just so you shall make it."

The book of Hebrews attests to the same thing:

Hebrews 8:5 - "... who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly ( Spiritual) things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the Tabernacle. For He said 'See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain'."

Now if we turn our attention to Revelation we see the copy/model of the earthly tabernacle to that of the spiritual tabernacle :

Revelation 4:2
At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven ( Spirit Realm) with someone sitting on it.

While there, John saw a throne with God seated on it. Around the throne were 24 elders and four living creatures (Cherubim). Before the throne was a seven branched lampstand and a sea of glass. The heavenly beings gave glory and honor to the Father who sat on the throne (Revelation 4:2–11). Inside this heavenly temple — the inner temple . In the inner temple he witnessed the true “ark of the testament” (Revelation 11:19) and the pot of manna (Revelation 2:17). 

And finally, the inner sanctum contained “the tree of life ( Depicted in the earthly Temple), which is in the midst of the paradise of God” (Revelation 2:7) also depicted in the earthly tabernacle. 

Paradise here is also seen in the temple on the walls all around the temple, in both the inner and outer rooms, he carved cherubim, palm trees and open flowers. 1 Kings 6:29
This can not be in the future place of NEW HEAVEN and NEW EARTH as God has not yet dispensed with his Judgement and wrath on this world. What John saw was the third heaven – Spirtual Heaven.

While John was still in heaven, further, John saw a golden altar with incense and a censor associated with it (Revelation 8:3). Located in front of this incense altar, outside the Holy Place, was another altar under which were the “souls of them that were slain for the word of God” (Revelation 6:9).

Earthly Tabernacle/ Temple

The throne of God is one of mercy, hence the mercy seat. Also within the holiest area of Solomon’s temple was “the golden pot of manna” (Hebrews 9:4). Those who will eat of this manna “shall serve him day and night in his [inner] temple [the Holy of Holies] ... they shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more” (Revelation 7:15–16).
Alongside this pot of manna was the “ark of the testament” (Hebrews 9:4)

The twenty-four elders - On earth we have twenty-four priestly courses (each headed by a chief priest) who performed the regular daily services in the temple on a rotation basis (2 Chronicles 24:1–19).

There were also the Cherubim in the heavenly temple. Statues were made of them and placed near the mercy seat in the earthly temple.

Aarons rod was made from a limb of an almond tree (Numbers 17:8), The almond is the earliest of the springtime trees to blossom in the Holy Land. It represents new life, TREE of Life

 

I don’t deny Gods involvement with creation, hence why we have the bible, what you need to come to grips with, God has an abode, outside of creation, known as Spiritual Heaven, a Third Heaven, The Heaven, Hashamayim with a CAPITAL H. We see this in the earthly tabernacle which is a shadow of the heavenly ( Spiritual) Heaven, where God sits in paradise, which John saw before God administered his judgement and wrath.

The biggest difference to our world and the world to come, God will be fully manifested in all his glory for all eyes to see, this we do not have now. Regulations.

I look forward to it

 

You're banking a LOT on this Tabernacle/Temple analogy being in the "Spirit Realm!" You've made some unwarranted assumptions and some false analogies that never should have been made.

For instance, since when is the Tree of Life = an ALMOND tree?!

You're back to captitalizing the "h" in "ha-" the prefix that means "the," when you probably mean to capitalize the "S" in "shaamayim," which means "heaven." However, that is ONLY capitalizing the English word as the Hebrew word cannot be capitalized, since they have no "capital" letters.

You're misusing (abusing) the word "spiritual" because you don't know what the word "spirit" means, and I DARE you to find "Spirit Realm" in the Scriptures! You've misread the word translated "pattern" (the Hebrew word "taVniyt") as a pre-existing "model" instead of a NEW "blueprint," and you are assuming that is what was meant in Hebrews 8:5, as well.

I would guess, based on the usage of "spirit" and "spiritual" that you don't know what "soul" means either. I'll ask you this: Do people have "souls?" Do animals have "souls?"

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, inChrist.

I noticed how you conveniently avoided my last two questions. Before I answer anything from the last post of yours, I'd really like you to answer them first. That way I can see if we have any sort of underlying foundation of common definitions. I'll repeat the questions and add two more:

Do people have "souls?"

Do animals have "souls?"

What is a "soul?"

What is a "spirit?"

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, inChrist.

Oh, heavens to Betsy! I can answer your questions until I'm blue in the face, but I suspect that we're not even talking the same language! But, sure, I'll answer your questions first (which you won't understand because we're not on the same page, but hey... whatever).

I'll answer them in reverse order as I encounter them (because I don't know how far back you want to start):

You asked, "Please enlighten me where this new blueprint is to be?"

The "new blueprint" (which was "new" at that time) was that "blueprint" given to them on the mountain, Mount Sinai. It was not "to be" anywhere! It was something "new" because it was NOT patterned after something already in some theoretical "Spirit Realm." It was a pattern given to them uniquely from God for the very first time.

You said and asked,

Further I'm still waiting for your rendering of the following
Job 22:12 
Is not God in the height of heaven? And see the highest stars, how lofty they are! 
What heaven is this? 

This verse in Iyov's book is asking two separate questions. Notice the word "And" (the "vav" connective) between them. The first question is... 

"Is not God in the highest point of the atmosphere?"

The second statement, an entirely different thought (although connected in communicating height):

"And see the highest stars, how high they are!"

They are two different heights, the maximum height of the atmosphere and the maximum "height" of the (visible) stars. You've thought of them as though they were the SAME height being discussed, but there's nothing in the text that demands that interpretation.

18 hours ago, inchrist said:

See you missed this section of 1 Corinthians 15

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Pay attention here: there is a natural body and there is a Spirtual body.
Now watch:

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: NATURAL 

The natural came first before the Spirtual as per (46)

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Lets carry on reviewing (47)
...the second man is the Lord from heaven. See....The last Adam was a quickening spirit. Second means after first...the first natural, the second spiritual as per (46)

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Lets move on to verse 48

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

As you can clearly see the pattern continues.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: --------There is a natural body (44)
48. and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. ----------and there is a spiritual body (44)

Still staying in contact with the pattern established

49. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, -------- There is a natural body (44)
49. we shall also bear the image of the heavenly ----------- and there is a spiritual body (44)

Everything from (44) to (49) is about spiritual and natural in the text. 

Secondly ouranou is used in (47)  the second man is the Lord from heaven. 

It is very clear Paul does not have or atmosphere/ sky in view...
But by all means please refute verse by verse of 44-49.

You really can't see the tree from the forest can you? Surely concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed.
My friend you can't even get the understanding correct in 1.cor 15 how am I to expect you to get the meaning correct in Matthew 6:9-34?
Let alone understanding the phrase heavenly places or heavenly things?

John 3:12
But if you don't believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things?

This is going to take a while, because you wouldn't answer my questions:

Here's the Greek (transliterated) of 44-48 included in the context from 35-49:

35 Alla erei tis: “Poos egeirontai hoi nekroi? Poioo de soomati erchontai?”
36 Afroon, su ho speireis ou zoo-opoieitai ean mee apothanee;
37 Kai ho speireis, ou to sooma to geneesomenon speireis alla gumnon kokkon ei tuchoi sitou mee tinos toon loipoon;
38 ho de Theos didoosin autoo sooma kathoos eetheleesen, kai hekastoo toon spermatoon idion sooma.
39 Ou pasa sarx hee autee sarx alla allee men anthroopoon, allee de sarx kteenoon, allee de sarx pteenoon, allee de ichthuoon.
40 Kai soomata epourania, kai soomata epigeia; alla hetera men hee toon epouranioon doxa, hetera de hee toon epigeioon.
41 Allee doxa heeliou, kai allee doxa seleenees, kai allee doxa asteroon; asteer gar asteros diaferei en doxee.
42 Houtoos kai hee anastasis toon nekroon.

Speiretai en fthora,
egeiretai en aftharsia;

43 Speiretai en atimia,
egeiretai en doxee;

speiretai en astheneia,
egeiretai en dunamei;

44 Speiretai sooma psuchikon,
egeiretai sooma pneumatikon.

Ei estin sooma psuchikon,
estin kai pneumatikon.

45 Houtoos kai gegraptai, “Egeneto ho prootos anthroopos Adam eis psucheen zoosan,”
ho eschatos Adam eis pneuma zoo-opoioun.
46 All’ ou prooton to pneumatikon alla to psuchukon,
epeita to pneumatikon.
47 Ho prootos anthroopos ek gees choikos,
ho deuteros anthroopos ex ouranou.
48 Hoios ho choikos, toioutoi kai hoi choikoi,
kai hoios ho epouranios, toioutou kai hoi epouranioi;
49 kai kathoos eforesamen teen eikona tou choikou,
foresomen kai teen eikona tou epouraniou.

35 Alla = 35 But
erei = will-say
tis: = someone:
“Poos = "How
egeirontai = are-resurrected
hoi = the
nekroi? = dead-[ones]?
Poioo = With-what
de = but
soomati = body
erchontai?” = do-they-come?"
36 Afroon, = 36 Fool,
su = thou/you
ho = that-[which]
speireis = thou-sowest/you-sow
ou = not
zoo-opoieitai = is-given-life
ean = if
mee = not
apothanee; = it-dies-[first];
37 Kai = 37 And/Also
ho = that-which
speireis, = thou-sowest/you-sow
ou = not
to = the
sooma = body
to = the-[one]
geneesomenon = that-shall-be
speireis = thou-sowest/you-sow
alla = but
gumnon = bare/naked
kokkon = seed
ei = if
tuchoi = it-may-happen-to-be
sitou = of-wheat
mee = or
tinos = some
toon = of-the
loipoon; = other-[kinds];
38 ho = 38 the
de = but
Theos = God
didoosin = gives
autoo = to-each-[one]
sooma = a-body
kathoos = like/as
eetheleesen, = He-wishes/He-desires,
kai = and/also
hekastoo = to-each-one
toon = of-the
spermatoon = seeds
idion = its-own
sooma. = body.
39 Ou = 39 Not
pasa = all
sarx = flesh
hee = the
autee = same
sarx = flesh
alla = but
allee = one
men = indeed
anthroopoon, = of-men,
allee = another
de = but
sarx flesh
kteenoon, = of-beasts,
allee = another
de = but
sarx = flesh
pteenoon, = of-birds,
allee = another
de = but
ichthuoon. = of-fish.
40 Kai = 40 And/Also
soomata = bodies
epourania, = above-the-sky,
kai = and/also
soomata = bodies
epigeia; = above-the-ground;
alla = but
hetera = one
men = indeed
hee = the
toon = of-those
epouranioon = above-the-sky
doxa, = glory,
hetera = that
de = but
hee = the
toon = of-the
epigeioon. = above-the-ground.
41 Allee = 41 One
doxa = glory
heeliou, = of-[the]-sun,
kai = and/also
allee = another
doxa = glory
seleenees, = of-[the]-moon,
kai = and/also
allee = another
doxa = glory
asteroon; = of-[the]-stars;
asteer = a-star
gar = for
asteros = from-a-star
diaferei = differs
en = in
doxee. = glory.
42 Houtoos = 42 So
kai = and/also
hee = the
anastasis = resurrection
toon = of-the
nekroon. = dead-[ones].
Speiretai = It-is-sown
en = in
fthora, = corruption,
egeiretai = it-is-raised
en = in
aftharsia; = incorruption;
43 Speiretai = 43 It-is-sown
en = in
atimia, = dishonor,
egeiretai = it-is-raised
en = in
doxee; = glory/fame;
speiretai = it-is-sown
en = in
astheneia, = weakness,
egeiretai = it-is-raised
en = in
dunamei; = power;
44 Speiretai = 44 it-is-sown
sooma = a-body
psuchikon, = soul-ual/breathing,
egeiretai = it-is-raised
sooma = a-body
pneumatikon. = spirit-ual/blasting.
Ei = If
estin = there-is
sooma = a-body
psuchikon, = breathing,
estin =there-is
kai = and/also
pneumatikon. = a-blasting.
45 Houtoos = 45 So
kai = also
gegraptai, = it-is-written,
“Egeneto = "Was-made
ho = the
prootos = first
anthroopos = man
Adam = Adam
eis = into
psucheen = a-breather
zoosan,” = living,"
ho = the
eschatos = last
Adam = Adam
eis = into
pneuma = a-spirit/a-wind
zoo-opoioun. = life-giving.
46 All’ (Alla) = 46 But
ou = not
prooton = first
to = the
pneumatikon = blasting
alla = but
to = the
psuchukon, = breathing,
epeita = afterward
to = the
pneumatikon. = blasting.
47 Ho = 47 The
prootos = first
anthroopos = man
ek = out-of
gees = [the]-ground
choikos, = soil-like,
ho = the
deuteros = second
anthroopos = man
ex = out-of
ouranou. = [the]-sky.
48 Hoios = 48 Like/As
ho = the
choikos, = soil-like,
toioutoi = of-this-sort
kai = also
hoi = the
choikoi, = soil-like ones,
kai = and/also
hoios = like/as
ho = the
epouranios, = above-the-heaven,
toioutou = of-this-sort
kai = also
hoi = the
epouranioi; = above-the-heaven-ones.
49 kai = 49 and/also
kathoos = like/as
eforesamen = we-have-carried
teen = the
eikona = image
tou = of-the
choikou, = soil-like-[one],
foresomen = we-shall-carry
kai = also
teen = the
eikona = image
tou = of-the
epouraniou. = above-[the]-sky-[One].

35 But will-say someone: "How are-resurrected the dead-[ones]? With-what but body do-they-come?"
36 Fool, thou/you that-[which] thou-sowest/you-sow not is-given-life if not it-dies-[first];
37 And/Also that-which thou-sowest/you-sow not the body the-[one] that-shall-be thou-sowest/you-sow but bare/naked seed if it-may-happen-to-be of-wheat or some of-the other-[kinds];
38 the but God gives to-each-[one] a-body like/as He-wishes/He-desires, and/also to-each-one of-the seeds its-own body.
39 Not all flesh the same flesh but one indeed of-men, another but flesh of-beasts, another but flesh of-birds, another but of-fish.
40 And/Also bodies above-the-sky, and/also bodies above-the-ground; but one indeed the of-those above-the-sky glory/brightness, that but the of-the above-the-ground.
41 One glory/brightness of-[the]-sun, and/also another glory/brightness of-[the]-moon, and/also another glory/brightness of-[the]-stars; a-star for from-a-star differs in glory/brightness.
42 So and/also the resurrection of-the dead-[ones].
It-is-sown in corruption, it-is-raised in incorruption;
43 It-is-sown in dishonor, it-is-raised in glory/fame; it-is-sown in weakness, it-is-raised in power;
44 it-is-sown a-body soul-ual/breathing, it-is-raised a-body spirit-ual/blasting. If there-is a-body breathing, there-is also a-blasting.
45 So also it-is-written, "Was-made the first man Adam into a-breather living," the last Adam into a-spirit/a-wind life-giving.
46 But not first the blasting but the breathing, afterward the blasting.
47 The first man out-of [the]-ground soil-like, the second man out-of [the]-sky.
48 Like/As the soil-like, of-this-sort also the soil-like ones, and/also like/as the above-the-heaven, of-this-sort also the above-the-heaven-ones.
49 and/also like/as we-have-carried the image of-the soil-like-[one], we-shall-carry also the image of-the above-[the]-sky-[One].

Thus, it's the difference between one who breathes air and one who BLASTS with air like the wind!

Did you know that "in the spirit" means "on the wind?" It's like in Ecclesiastes:

Ecclesiastes 1:14
14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.
KJV

means

14 I've seen all the deeds that are done under the sun; and - look! - everything is pointless and a chasing after the wind!

That's why it's important that we first discuss our terminology. A "spirit" is a "breath" or the "wind." A "soul" is "one that breathes air" or an "air-breather." And, yes, that means that animals are "souls," too. It also means that a person becomes a "soul" when he/she is born. It also means that one CEASES to be a "soul" - an "air-breather" - when he dies and "gives up the spirit/ghost" - "breathes his/her last!" That's why the Resurrection is so important!

I'll get to more questions later; that's enough for one day. See? I KNOW you're not going to accept any of this! But, it is what it is.

[gdemoss]

On 1/29/2016 at 4:13 PM, Retrobyter said:

The bottom line is that we are NOT to be anticipating "going to heaven when we die." We are to be anticipating the RESURRECTION, specifically the RESURRECTION OF OUR BODIES!

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, inChrist.

On February 8, 2016 at 0:15 PM, inchrist said:

I'm going to give you some homework to do...see study Revelations for me and please tell me what the angels are doing before God unleashes his wrath? Also please notice the objects John is seeing... could you list them for me please

I'm sorry, but the book is NOT "Revelations." It is the Revelation, SINGULAR - the Uncovering - the Revealing - of our Master, Yeshua` the Messiah. (Yeah, I know you corrected yourself later. I only said this for others who might be reading along who have a tendancy to make that mistake.)

I'm glad you know what a "soul" is. That in itself is a HUGE hurdle! Good for you!

I'm sorry that you don't know what a "spirit" is.

On February 8, 2016 at 0:15 PM, inchrist said:

The Hebrew word for "spirit" in the Hebrew is ruach , number #7307 in Strong's Concordance. It is the same word used for "holy spirit”.

It is a spiritual essence which gives man his distinctiveness, his originality and creativity, his God-likeness. At death, it returns to God and stored if you wish. This spirit is known as our Human spirit.

Interestingly, you didn't pursue the Strong's listing:

OT:7307 ruwach (roo'-akh); from OT:7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):
KJV - air, anger, blast, breath, cool, courage, mind,  quarter,  side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest,  vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The FIRST meaning of the word is "wind!" This was the word translated as "wind," "windy," and "whirlwind." It was also translated as "air," "blast," and "tempest." It's a "strong gust," a "storm," a "gale," or even a "hurricane!" From the direction the wind is coming, it is that "region of the sky" or "quarter" or "side."

THAT is the meaning in its first mention:

Genesis 1:2
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit (Wind) of God moved upon the (sur)face of the waters.
KJV

The SECOND meaning of the word is "breath," especially a "sensible exhalation," an exhaling that you can feel,  even a "VIOLENT exhalation." More than just a "puff," it's a "strong blowing," a "blast," again! When one blows on hot soup, one will "cool" his soup. If you have seen the Lord of the Rings movie trilogy, when Gollum is putting all his strength into acquiring the ring from Frodo, he puffs out his cheeks, and that is why it also carries the meanings "anger" or "courage." Even to the point of "determination!"

The THIRD meaning of the word is "life," but this is figurative. We'll get to that in a moment.

The FOURTH meaning of the word is "anger," which we've already covered.

The FIFTH meaning of the word is "unsubstantiality," frequently called "spirit" or "spiritual," but then, THAT is the "definition" that is in question, isn't it?! So, to use this as a definition is to beg the question. Therefore, it is a form of circular reasoning. We need to come at this from a different direction.

Let's return to 1 Corinthians 15, because it is THERE that the answer is to be found. To say that "God is a spirit" is part of that "begging the question," because it all depends on what "spirit" means that will determine what it means to call God a "spirit," doesn't it?! One CANNOT start with an assumed "definition" when one is trying to ascertain that definition in the first place! Understand? That's circular reasoning, a logical fallacy. It is also a LEADING statement even to use a capital "S" in "Spirit!" And, not all versions use a capital "S," by the way, nor does the Greek, in John 4:24.

Don't be distracted by the weak translation word, "natural." Look carefully at the comparisons: They are NOT always opposites. Sometimes, they are comparatives and superlatives.

On February 8, 2016 at 11:18 PM, Retrobyter said:

42 So and/also the resurrection of-the dead-[ones].
It-is-sown in corruption, it-is-raised in incorruption;
43 It-is-sown in dishonor, it-is-raised in glory/fame; it-is-sown in weakness, it-is-raised in power;
44 it-is-sown a-body soul-ual/breathing, it-is-raised a-body spirit-ual/blasting. If there-is a-body breathing, there-is also a-blasting.
45 So also it-is-written, "Was-made the first man Adam into a-breather living," the last Adam into a-spirit/a-wind life-giving.
46 But not first the blasting but the breathing, afterward the blasting.
47 The first man out-of [the]-ground soil-like, the second man out-of [the]-sky.
48 Like/As the soil-like, of-this-sort also the soil-like ones, and/also like/as the above-the-heaven, of-this-sort also the above-the-heaven-ones.
49 and/also like/as we-have-carried the image of-the soil-like-[one], we-shall-carry also the image of-the above-[the]-sky-[One].

"So also [is] the resurrection of the dead ones.

It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;
It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in fame/glowing;
It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
It is sown a breathing body, it is raised a blasting body. If there is a breathing body, there is also a blasting [body].

So it is also written, "The first man - Adam - was made into a living [air]-breather," the last Adam [was made] into a life-giving wind!
However, the blasting [body] was not first, but the breathing [body]; AFTERWARD the blasting [body].

The first man [was] out of the ground, soil-like, the second man [will be] out of [the] sky.
Just as the soil-like, this sort also the soil-like ones; also, just as the One [is] above the sky, this sort also [shall be] ones above the sky.

And, as we have carried the image of the soil-like one, we shall also carry the image of the One above the sky."

Don't you yet understand? This is CONNECTED to the verses that FOLLOW:

1 Corinthians 15:50-54
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
KJV

These verses are NOT just talking about our future resurrection; it was also talking about Yeshua`s resurrection, as well. First, He had to come back to life as a breathing body, a soul. THEN, He was changed into the blasting body, a WIND in that body that can give life! Yeshua` was not MADE out of the sky; He will COME out of the sky! And, in the new earth, we will be new breathing bodies becoming blasting bodies that shall also exist above the sky! How? Simple. The majority concentration of the atmosphere now is about 200 miles high, but the New Jerusalem will have a height of 1,500 miles high!

[Guest]

On ‎1‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 2:07 AM, inchrist said:

And this is where your problem lies, take the word Eretz

Genesis 1:1

In the beginning God created the heavens and the Eretz.

Now if I take your strict usage of words, then Eretz can never refer to a region or the land of Israel or that which is promised to Abraham.

Only a few percent of the occurrences of the word relate to the whole earth / planet. It refers most frequently to the land of Israel, or the whole territory from the Nile to the Euphrates that had been promised to Abraham. Statistically, the chances are that whenever we encounter eretz, this is what it refers to, a territory of land called Israel.

 

CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT dictates the usage of words

 

 

The conversation has been fascinating on all sides. And I do not know what to think about the land promised to Abraham. but, Abraham did meet Melchizedek there, one who has eternal life, as an eternal high priest. Was his kingdom present on the earth then?

 Also Hebrews says

Heb 11:16  But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Therefore it seems Abe never did inherit the land that Israel inherited? I am not sure. Do you all have thoughts on that?

Ac 7:5  And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.

Sorry if this is off topic, but just had to mention it.

[Retrobyter]

On February 11, 2016 at 3:42 AM, inchrist said:

This is not what I asked for,  side stepping in order to get out [of] the question. In Revelation, when John is taken up, please tell me what the angels are doing before God unleashes his wrath? Also please notice the objects John is seeing... could you list them for me please.

 

Since your charge is “assumption” of the earthly tabernacle and complete denial of the spiritual realm,

 

This conversation has ended until this is answered. 

One CANNOT study Revelation without the basics first! The myriad theories about the book are positive proof that many have made mistakes about the book! You would not be the first. Besides, you've forgotten that YOUR interpretation of Revelation is not God's absolute understanding of Revelation! Furthermore, if "spiritual" has a DIFFERENT definition than the one YOU employ, then there IS NO "spiritual realm," per se, and I'm "denying" a FALSE THEOLOGICAL POSITION, which is a PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE THING TO DO, in fact, IT'S A PREFERABLE THING TO DO!

More later...

 

[Retrobyter]

The conversation has been fascinating on all sides. And I do not know what to think about the land promised to Abraham. but, Abraham did meet Melchizedek there, one who has eternal life, as an eternal high priest. Was his kingdom present on the earth then?

 Also Hebrews says

Heb 11:16  But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Therefore it seems Abe never did inherit the land that Israel inherited? I am not sure. Do you all have thoughts on that?

Ac 7:5  And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.

Sorry if this is off topic, but just had to mention it.

Shabbat shalom, Joline.

Yes, the kingdom of Malkhiy-Tsedeq ("MY King of Righteousness") was on earth during the life of Avraham (Abraham). "Shalem" is thought to be the same as "Yerushalayim (Jerusalem)," a city-state before the Y'vusiym (Jebusites) conquered it. What the author of Hebrews noted was this:

Hebrews 5:6-10
6 Also, as he says in another place,

“You are a cohen forever,
to be compared with Malki-Tzedek.” (Psalm 110:4)

7 During Yeshua’s life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions, crying aloud and shedding tears, to the One who had the power to deliver him from death; and he was heard because of his godliness. 8 Even though he was the Son, he learned obedience through his sufferings. 9 And after he had been brought to the goal, he became the source of eternal deliverance to all who obey him, 10 since he had been proclaimed by God as a cohen gadol to be compared with Malki-Tzedek. 
CJB

Hebrews 6:13-7:28
13 For when God made his promise to Avraham, he swore an oath to do what he had promised; and since there was no one greater than himself for him to swear by, he swore by himself (Gen. 22:16) 14 and said,

“I will certainly bless you,and I will certainly give you many descendants”; (Gen. 22:17)

15 and so, after waiting patiently, Avraham saw the promise fulfilled. 16 Now people swear oaths by someone greater than themselves, and confirmation by an oath puts an end to all dispute. 17 Therefore, when God wanted to demonstrate still more convincingly the unchangeable character of his intentions to those who were to receive what he had promised, he added an oath to the promise; 18 so that through two unchangeable things, in neither of which God could lie, we, who have fled to take a firm hold on the hope set before us, would be strongly encouraged. 19 We have this hope as a sure and safe anchor for ourselves, a hope that goes right on through to what is inside the parokhet, 20 where a forerunner has entered on our behalf, namely, Yeshua, who has become a cohen gadol forever, to be compared with Malki-Tzedek. 
7:1 This Malki-Tzedek, king of Shalem, a cohen of God Ha‘Elyon, met Avraham on his way back from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him; 2 also Avraham gave him a tenth of everything. 
Now first of all, by translation of his name, he is “king of righteousness”; and then he is also king of Shalem, which means “king of peace.” 
3 There is no record of his father, mother, ancestry, birth or death; rather, like the Son of God, he continues as a cohen for all time. 
4 Just think how great he was! Even the Patriarch Avraham gave him a tenth of the choicest spoils. 5 Now the descendants of Levi who became cohanim have a commandment in the Torah to take a tenth of the income of the people, that is, from their own brothers, despite the fact that they too are descended from Avraham. 6 But Malki-Tzedek, even though he was not descended from Levi, took a tenth from Avraham.
Also, he blessed Avraham, the man who received God’s promises; 7 and it is beyond all dispute that the one who blesses has higher status than the one who receives the blessing. 
8 Moreover, in the case of the cohanim, the tenth is received by men who die; while in the case of Malki-Tzedek, it is received by someone who is testified to be still alive. 
9 One might go even further and say that Levi, who himself receives tenths, paid a tenth through Avraham; 10 inasmuch as he was still in his ancestor Avraham’s body when Malki-Tzedek met him. 
11 Therefore, if it had been possible to reach the goal through the system of cohanim derived from Levi (since in connection with it, the people were given the Torah), what need would there have been for another, different kind of cohen, the one spoken of as to be compared with Malki-Tzedek and not to be compared with Aharon? 12 For if the system of cohanim is transformed, there must of necessity occur a transformation of Torah. 13 The one about whom these things are said belongs to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar; 14 for everyone knows that our Lord arose out of Y’hudah, and that Moshe said nothing about this tribe when he spoke about cohanim. 
15 It becomes even clearer if a “different kind of cohen,” one like Malki-Tzedek, arises, 16 one who became a cohen not by virtue of a rule in the Torah concerning physical descent, but by virtue of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is stated,

“You are a cohen FOREVER,
to be compared with Malki-Tzedek.” (Psalm 110:4)

18 Thus, on the one hand, the earlier rule is set aside because of its weakness and inefficacy 19 (for the Torah did not bring anything to the goal); and, on the other hand, a hope of something better is introduced, through which we are drawing near to God. 
20 What is more, God swore an oath. For no oath was sworn in connection with those who become cohanim now; 21 but Yeshua became a cohen by the oath which God swore when he said to him,

“Adonai has sworn and will not change his mind,‘You are a cohen forever.’” 

22 Also this shows how much better is the covenant of which Yeshua has become guarantor. 
23 Moreover, the present cohanim are many in number, because they are prevented by death from continuing in office. 24 But because he lives forever, his position as cohen does not pass on to someone else; 25 and consequently, he is totally able to deliver those who approach God through him; since he is alive forever and thus forever able to intercede on their behalf. 
26 This is the kind of cohen gadol that meets our need — holy, without evil, without stain, set apart from sinners and raised higher than the heavens; 27 one who does not have the daily necessity, like the other cohanim g’dolim, of offering up sacrifices first for their own sins and only then for those of the people; because he offered one sacrifice, once and for all, by offering up himself. 28 For the Torah appoints as cohanim g’dolim men who have weakness; but the text which speaks about the swearing of the oath, a text written later than the Torah, appoints a Son who has been brought to the goal forever. 
CJB

So, cohanim or cohaniym (priests) were given their position through the Torah (the Pentateuch, the word means "Instruction"), and the high priest (cohen gadol) was the ONE cohen (priest) with the privilege and responsibility to present sacrifice within the Holy of Holies, the inner sanctum of the Tabernacle and later the Temple, behind the "parokhet (curtain)." And, ALL of these cohaniym given their positions through the Torah, were still within the body of Avraham when he gave his tithes to Malkhiy-Tsedeq. 

You asked, "Therefore it seems Abe (Avraham) never did inherit the land that Israel inherited? I am not sure. Do you all have thoughts on that?"

YOU'RE RIGHT; all you have to do is look at the context of the verse you quoted:

Hebrew 11:8-19, 32 - 12:29
8 By trusting, Avraham obeyed, after being called to go out (Gen. 12:1) to a place which God would give him as a possession; indeed, he went out without knowing where he was going. 9 By trusting, he lived as a temporary resident in the Land of the promise, as if it were not his, staying in tents with Yitz’chak and Ya‘akov, who were to receive what was promised along with him. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with permanent foundations, of which the architect and builder is God. 

11 By trusting, he received potency to father a child, even when he was past the age for it, as was Sarah herself; because he regarded the One who had made the promise as trustworthy. 12 Therefore this one man, who was virtually dead, fathered descendants

as numerous as the stars in the sky,
and as countless as the grains of the sand on the seashore. (Gen. 15:5-6; 22:17; 32:13; Ex. 32:13; Deut. 1:10; 10:22)

13 All these people (including Avraham) kept on trusting until they died, without receiving what had been promised. They had only seen it and welcomed it from a distance, while acknowledging that they were aliens and temporary residents on the earth ("upon the Land," I Chron. 29:15).  14 For people who speak this way make it clear that they are looking for a fatherland. 15 Now if they were to keep recalling the one they left, they would have an opportunity to return; 16 but as it is, they aspire to a better fatherland, a heavenly one ("that is, [one] from above the sky"). This is why God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. (a.k.a., the New Jerusalem)

17 By trusting, Avraham, when he was put to the test, offered up Yitz’chak as a sacrifice. Yes, he offered up his only son, he who had received the promises, 18 to whom it had been said, “What is called your ‘seed’ will be in Yitz’chak.” (Gen. 21:12) 19 For he had concluded that God could even raise people from the dead! And, figuratively speaking, he did so receive him. 
.....

32 What more should I say? There isn’t time to tell about Gid‘on, Barak, Shimshon, Yiftach, David, Sh’mu’el and the prophets; 33 who, through trusting, conquered kingdoms, worked righteousness, received what was promised, shut the mouths of lions,  34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, had their weakness turned to strength, grew mighty in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead resurrected; other people were stretched on the rack and beaten to death, refusing to be ransomed, so that they would gain a better resurrection. 36 Others underwent the trials of being mocked and whipped, then chained and imprisoned. 37 They were stoned, sawed in two, murdered by the sword; they went about clothed in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted, mistreated, 38 wandering about in deserts and mountains, living in caves and holes in the ground! The world was not worthy of them! 
39 All of these had their merit attested because of their trusting. Nevertheless, they did not receive what had been promised, 40 because God had planned something better that would involve us, so that only with us would they be brought to the goal. 
12:1 So then, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us, too, put aside every impediment — that is, the sin which easily hampers our forward movement — and keep running with endurance in the contest set before us, 2 looking away to the Initiator and Completer of that trusting, (Hab. 2:4) Yeshua — who, in exchange for obtaining the joy set before him, endured execution on a stake as a criminal, scorning the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of (Psalm 110:1) the throne of God.  3 Yes, think about him who endured such hostility against himself from sinners, so that you won’t grow tired or become despondent. 4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in the contest against sin. 
5 Also you have forgotten the counsel which speaks with you as sons:

“My son, don’t despise the discipline of Adonai
or become despondent when he corrects you.
6 For Adonai disciplines those he loves
and whips everyone he accepts as a son.” (Prov. 3:11-12)

7 Regard your endurance as discipline; God is dealing with you as sons. For what son goes undisciplined by his father? 8 All legitimate sons undergo discipline; so if you don’t, you’re a mamzer and not a son! 
9 Furthermore, we had physical fathers who disciplined us, and we respected them; how much more should we submit to our spiritual Father and live! 10 For they disciplined us only for a short time and only as best they could; but he disciplines us in a way that provides genuine benefit to us and enables us to share in his holiness. 
11 Now, all discipline, while it is happening, does indeed seem painful, not enjoyable; but for those who have been trained by it, it later produces its peaceful fruit, which is righteousness. 12 So,

strengthen your drooping arms,and steady your tottering knees; (Isa. 35:3)

13 and

make a level path for your feet; (Prov. 4:26)

so that what has been injured will not get wrenched out of joint but rather will be healed. 
14 Keep pursuing shalom with everyone and the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one misses out on God’s grace, that no root of bitterness (Deut. 29:17) springing up causes trouble and thus contaminates many, 16 and that no one is sexually immoral, or godless like Esav, who in exchange for a single meal gave up his rights as the firstborn. 17 For you know that afterwards, when he wanted to obtain his father’s blessing, he was rejected; indeed, even though he sought it with tears, his change of heart was to no avail. 
18 For you have not come to a tangible mountain, to an ignited fire, to darkness, to murk, to a whirlwind, 19 to the sound of a shofar, and to a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further message be given to them —  20 for they couldn’t bear what was being commanded them, “If even an animal touches the mountain, it is to be stoned to death”; (Ex. 19:12-13) 21 and so terrifying was the sight that Moshe said, “I am quaking with dread.” (Deut. 9:19)
22 On the contrary, you have come to Mount Tziyon, that is, the city of the living God, heavenly Yerushalayim (New Jerusalem); to myriads of angels in festive assembly; 23 to a community of the firstborn whose names have been recorded in heaven; to a Judge who is God of everyone; to spirits of righteous people who have been brought to the goal; 24 to the mediator of a new covenant, Yeshua; and to the sprinkled blood that speaks better things than that of Hevel. 
25 See that you don’t reject the One speaking! For if those did not escape who rejected him when he gave divine warning on earth, think how much less we will escape if we turn away from him when he warns from heaven. 26 Even then, his voice shook the earth; but now, he has made this promise:

“One more time I will shake
not only the earth, but heaven too!” (Hag. 2:6, 21)

27 And this phrase, “one more time,” makes clear that the things shaken are removed, since they are created things, so that the things not shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we have received an unshakeable Kingdom, let us have grace, through which we may offer service that will please God, with reverence and fear. 29 For indeed,

“Our God is a consuming fire!” (Deut. 4:24; 9:3; Isa. 33:14)
CJB