Where is the 3rd Heaven?

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Joline said:

What is it you think I am teaching? You have said nothing I disagree with. The covenant of circumcision IMO, is why they are back in the land today. It is vital to the natural seed of Abraham. That is why The gospel to them was never without circumcision. I do not know what you think I am teaching but this post does in no way reflect it.

Furthermore I also believe the Hebrew Church kept to the baptism of John, which concerns the circumcision in the flesh, and fulfilling the law first to the Jews..

I know that verse is about lies...... That is why I posted it. They kept the circumcision.....

It never occurred to me that some would completely misunderstand my posts here concerning the second covenant of circumcision found in genesis 17

When I spoke of Esau and Lot having been given land by the Lord, I also said they lost their inheritance. 

I also said Israel had another covenant that these did not have. The covenant of circumcision.

The first covenant/inheritance simply promised to bring them back again. There was no promise from God to the seed of that covenant

to be a God to them or anything else.

All of those promises belong to the second covenant made in circumcision. I believe it is this covenant that made them as natural children

FIRSTBORN= having a DOUBLE PORTION of inheritance from their father.

Each covenant gave them a Portion of all that belonged to their father Abraham.

It is this distinct covenant which Israel kept, which kept them as sons of promise Always.

Without that second covenant, God was not obligated for anything to them but to bring them into the land. And they could have lost it just like ESAU did. But for the promises of the second covenant did not and cannot.

this is one of the main reasons that covenant was maintained by the Jewish Apostles to the Jew's. Especially for their unsaved kinsman in the flesh.

Edited February 16, 2016 by Joline

[Ezra]

2 hours ago, Joline said:

Furthermore I also believe the Hebrew Church kept to the baptism of John, which concerns the circumcision in the flesh, and fulfilling the law first to the Jews..

"The Hebrew Church kept to the baptism of John" is totally incorrect.  Christian baptism took place on the Day of Pentecost when the Church came into existence. As to the rest of that statement, it simply adds to confusion. 

Anyway this is way off topic (and there is a lot of that in this thread).

[Your closest friendnt]

On 14 February, 2016 at 1:40 PM, inchrist said:

"I will give all the land you see to you and your offspring forever" (Gen. 13:15).

The whole land of Canaan where you are now an alien, I will give to you and your descendants after you: and I will be their God" (Gen. 17:8).

May God give you and your descendants the blessing given to Abraham so that you may take possession of the land where you now live as an alien, the land God gave to Abraham" (Gen. 28:4).

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. (Heb 11:8)

Abraham is also included in the promise of possessing the land. You can not ignore nor twist this...this is plan truth of the matter. Confirmed in the OT and NT Abraham inherits the land.

The only reason why Abraham could not possess it in his life time was due to God's plan of passing judgememt and evicting the canaanites, and of cause growing in the womb of Egypt a nation called Israel in order to conduct the judgement and eviction. 

Thats why two thousand years later, when the New Testament was written, Stephen, shortly before he was martyred, explained that "God gave Abraham no inheritance here, not even a foot of ground. But God promised him that he and his descendants after him would possess the land" (Acts 7:5).

Abraham is still an inheritor of the land which he will occupy when he is resurrected....in other words what God promised to Abraham all the way back in Genesis finds it's fullment when Christ returns  

It is a "heavenly" land since it is divinely ordained by the God of Heaven and will be blessed with the presence of the Messiah himself.

It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. Roms 4:13

Not ONLY is Abraham to inherit the land of Israel but the entire world with the messiah....global domination. Through Abraham being righteous.

Now we look at what Paul is trying to illustrate with Sarah and Hagar...this has NOTHING to do with trying to disprove that Abraham does not inherit the land of Israel but has everything to do with the trying to be justified through the law [OT - Law] and justified through righteousness [NT - righteousness], ratified by Jesus Christ.

The progression of all of this to the NT is throwing away the yoke of the law and circumcising your heart with the law. 

Because that is what the lesson is with Galatians of what Paul is teaching

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. (Gal 5:1)

You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. (Gal 5 : 4)

So what must you do to be justified in righteousness like Abraham was?

Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."

Again what is this all about?

 

Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? (Gal 4:21)

 

You have confused this in some weird way to show Abraham does not inherit the land of Israel? When that's not even the case to begin with on what Paul is teaching, which is about the law and trying to be justified by the law and not through righteousness and grace.

 

Galatians:4:24

Which things are an allegory, for these are the two covenants; The one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to BONDAGE, which is Agar. 

4:25 

For this Agar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answer to Jerusalem, which now is, and is in Bondage with her children.

4:26

But Jerusalem, which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Paul is writing this passage some time

after his conversation, and he is looking at Jerusalem with her children, ( when he says "Jerusalem", I don't thing he means the buildings that make up the city of Jerusalem), but rather the Jerusalem where is the Temple, and the High Priests, and the offerings of the dayling sacrifices, and the customs, and their holidays with their propose, and their hope for the promish Of the coming of the Messaiah, the Christ.

And he sees that they are offering sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins, and they still celebrating the Pasover, and the say "look and she if the promish ONE is coming:

"and then, not this year, perhaps next year".

In simple words, the people in Jerusalem the priest, the leaders of the Jews are still hoping for the Christ to come, 

They have denied that Jesus is the Christ.

They are without the Messiah, as they were the children of Sinai, the Children of The house of Jacob, with the Law and Moses, and Aaron, but without the Christ.

Children in Bondage, without Christ spirit in them, the children of the Flesh of Jacob and so Isaac and Abraham.

Paul is looking in the times before Jesus Christ, and he is looking at the Children of Jacob, they were the children set apart with the sircumsition, and in Sinai they were given the Law and the  Tabernacle and the High priest.

that time they were the children of the flesh and the Law, but still children of the Lord.

 

But at the same time Paul looks at Jerusalem the one with the denial of her redeemer, the Messiah, Jesus Christ,  and her Children that they are without God, and have a false hope that they do and continiou in their customs, without knowing, and in ignorance, that everything the do is not anymore receive by their God, who came in the Flesh to be among them selfs, to be their Savior with his death, and which they rejected.

Paul's hart was cut in agony looking at that picture, and the blindness that was upon them and which was also upon himself for a season.

Paul said: they are the children of Agar now. 

As I was my self some season ago, and I prosecuted the children of the Promish

4: 29

But as then he that was born after the flesh prosecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

The children of Earthly Jerusalem (Hagar, the children of  the Law, who for a season were the children of God, till the appearance of Jesus Christ, but now  are without Christ, and without God, cut off from God all together,  prosecute the children of the Promish, of the Spirit, the children of Jesus Christ, who has the Life of God.                                                      (And Paul says: one time I was one of them).

4:31

So then brethren, we are not children of the bond woman, (referring to those who denied Jesus as the Christ) in the time after the Cross., but the children of the free, referring to those who have the spirit through faith in Jesus Christ.

4:30

The children of the bonds woman( those who denied faith in Jesus Christ), ( even thought they are in the flesh the children of the free,

In the spirit are the children of the bonds woman, they shall not be heirs together with the children of Jesus Christ,

The children of the Heavenly Jerusalem, the children with the spirit of Jesus Christ, and so the children of the Spirit of God.

Paul hopes that as he, who has believe in Jesus Christ, so they might believe also, and be the children of the spiritual Promish, of Jesus Christ, because there is only one people to God, those with the Spirit of God, not two but one.

If you are from the children of Abraham without Jesus Christ, you are from the cast offs from the presents of God.

Because Abraham is now with Jesus Christ, and they can not be with Abraham, because they have denied the Savior of Abraham.  

They don't have any Inheritance together with Abraham, they are lost, and far away from Abraham, who belongs in the heavenly Jerusalem.

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Ezra said:

"The Hebrew Church kept to the baptism of John" is totally incorrect.  Christian baptism took place on the Day of Pentecost when the Church came into existence. As to the rest of that statement, it simply adds to confusion. 

Anyway this is way off topic (and there is a lot of that in this thread).

I agree the baptism of John is way off topic

But not the rest as I stand by the promise to Abraham in the covenant of circumcision to be the promise of the heavenly real estate. That is why I originally asked about Melchizedek and his kingdom.

[Ezra]

14 minutes ago, Joline said:

I agree the baptism of John is way off topic

But not the rest as I stand by the promise to Abraham in the covenant of circumcision to be the promise of the heavenly real estate. That is why I originally asked about Melchizedek and his kingdom.

I believe you are confusing things, but this discussion belongs to another thread. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Galatians:4:24

Which things are an allegory, for these are the two covenants; The one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to BONDAGE, which is Agar. 

4:25 

For this Agar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answer to Jerusalem, which now is, and is in Bondage with her children.

4:26

But Jerusalem, which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Paul is writing this passage some time

after his conversation, and he is looking at Jerusalem with her children, ( when he says "Jerusalem", I don't thing he means the buildings that make up the city of Jerusalem), but rather the Jerusalem where is the Temple, and the High Priests, and the offerings of the dayling sacrifices, and the customs, and their holidays with their propose, and their hope for the promish Of the coming of the Messaiah, the Christ.

And he sees that they are offering sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins, and they still celebrating the Pasover, and the say "look and she if the promish ONE is coming:

"and then, not this year, perhaps next year".

In simple words, the people in Jerusalem the priest, the leaders of the Jews are still hoping for the Christ to come, 

They have denied that Jesus is the Christ.

They are without the Messiah, as they were the children of Sinai, the Children of The house of Jacob, with the Law and Moses, and Aaron, but without the Christ.

Children in Bondage, without Christ spirit in them, the children of the Flesh of Jacob and so Isaac and Abraham.

Paul is looking in the times before Jesus Christ, and he is looking at the Children of Jacob, they were the children set apart with the sircumsition, and in Sinai they were given the Law and the  Tabernacle and the High priest.

that time they were the children of the flesh and the Law, but still children of the Lord.

 

But at the same time Paul looks at Jerusalem the one with the denial of her redeemer, the Messiah, Jesus Christ,  and her Children that they are without God, and have a false hope that they do and continiou in their customs, without knowing, and in ignorance, that everything the do is not anymore receive by their God, who came in the Flesh to be among them selfs, to be their Savior with his death, and which they rejected.

Paul's hart was cut in agony looking at that picture, and the blindness that was upon them and which was also upon himself for a season.

Paul said: they are the children of Agar now. 

As I was my self some season ago, and I prosecuted the children of the Promish

4: 29

But as then he that was born after the flesh prosecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

The children of Earthly Jerusalem (Hagar, the children of  the Law, who for a season were the children of God, till the appearance of Jesus Christ, but now  are without Christ, and without God, cut off from God all together,  prosecute the children of the Promish, of the Spirit, the children of Jesus Christ, who has the Life of God.                                                      (And Paul says: one time I was one of them).

4:31

So then brethren, we are not children of the bond woman, (referring to those who denied Jesus as the Christ) in the time after the Cross., but the children of the free, referring to those who have the spirit through faith in Jesus Christ.

4:30

The children of the bonds woman( those who denied faith in Jesus Christ), ( even thought they are in the flesh the children of the free,

In the spirit are the children of the bonds woman, they shall not be heirs together with the children of Jesus Christ,

The children of the Heavenly Jerusalem, the children with the spirit of Jesus Christ, and so the children of the Spirit of God.

Paul hopes that as he, who has believe in Jesus Christ, so they might believe also, and be the children of the spiritual Promish, of Jesus Christ, because there is only one people to God, those with the Spirit of God, not two but one.

If you are from the children of Abraham without Jesus Christ, you are from the cast offs from the presents of God.

Because Abraham is now with Jesus Christ, and they can not be with Abraham, because they have denied the Savior of Abraham.  

They don't have any Inheritance together with Abraham, they are lost, and far away from Abraham, who belongs in the heavenly Jerusalem.

 

The children strictly born of the flesh, only have the first covenant. Which is not much YCF. Let me try it this way. God was not obligated to them any further than this.

God would have killed Moses apart from it....

Ex 4:24   And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.
25  Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.
26  So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.
 

God was going to wipe out the entire nation here

Ex 32:10  Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
 

Within this group however are always Children of faith. These are the children born of the spirit.

The tribe of Levi were those which received the kingdom of priests. Since they alone were faithful to Moses in the giving of the Sinai covenant.

The circumcision in the flesh is only an outward symbol of Abraham's faith. It was a symbol of Abrahams inward circumcision is all  And yes the natural born sons were very Jealous.

as we see the jealousy here..... they said "All the congregation was holy, every one of them"

1  Now Korah, the son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab, and On, the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took men:
2  And they rose up before Moses, with certain of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown:
 And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the LORD?
4  And when Moses heard it, he fell upon his face:
5  And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.
6  This do; Take you censers, Korah, and all his company;
7  And put fire therein, and put incense in them before the LORD to morrow: and it shall be that the man whom the LORD doth choose, he shall be holy: ye take too much upon you, ye sons of Levi.

Not all Israel is Israel. Ro 2:28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

The tribe of Levi did not inherit with Israel, and were not counted among them as a tribe. But we see them counted in the heavenly kingdom

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Ezra said:

A tax on cyberspace? I'm sure the tax and spend crowd will love this.

Back to the subject:

 

Here is one comment which is quite incorrect. All the saints go to Heaven and their eternal home is the heavenly New Jerusalem. That includes Abraham. At the same time God will establish His kingdom on earth also.

Bingo yes......that is what I have been saying. The heavenly kingdom, not the earthly worldly one of this world and this life.

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, Ezra said:

I believe you are confusing things, but this discussion belongs to another thread. 

Since when does the priesthood of heaven, an eternal priesthood become off topic about heaven? Especially when I asked about Melchizedeks kingdom being present in the land when Abraham was there.

[coheir]

1 hour ago, Joline said:

Since when does the priesthood of heaven, an eternal priesthood become off topic about heaven? Especially when I asked about Melchizedeks kingdom being present in the land when Abraham was there.

he meant the op says "Where is the 3rd Heaven"

Not "Who is in the 3rd Heaven."

[Guest]

 

10 minutes ago, coheir said:

he meant the op says "Where is the 3rd Heaven"

Not "Who is in the 3rd Heaven."

Who????

I asked about the kingdom of Melchizedek, and whether it was on earth in Abrahams day. I was thinking if the heavenly Jerusalem could come down, or out, from heaven, it could also go up, return to heaven from the earth.. I truly was//am interested in the answer. But it seems no takers.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Joline