Where is the 3rd Heaven?

[HAZARD]

 

Quote

"Where is the 3rd Heaven?"

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Paul Speaks of three Heavens (2 Cor. 12:1-3).  

V 1, It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come1 to visions and revelations of the Lord.
   

V 2, I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
 

V 3, And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

The third heaven here is called paradise where God lives. The other two are; the clouds (Gen. 1:8; 7:23; 8:2; Job 38:9, 34; Isa. 14:14; 1:15-20; 22:17; Isa. 14:12-14 and Psalms 8:3.) and the starry space between the Earth and the galaxies (Gen. 1"15-20; 22:17; Isa. 14:12-14; Pa. 8:3).

 

 

[Retrobyter]

On January 19, 2016 at 0:01 AM, HAZARD said:

Paul Speaks of three Heavens (2 Cor. 12:1-3).  

V 1, It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come1 to visions and revelations of the Lord.
   

V 2, I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
 

V 3, And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

The third heaven here is called paradise where God lives. The other two are; the clouds (Gen. 1:8; 7:23; 8:2; Job 38:9, 34; Isa. 14:14; 1:15-20; 22:17; Isa. 14:12-14 and Psalms 8:3.) and the starry space between the Earth and the galaxies (Gen. 1"15-20; 22:17; Isa. 14:12-14; Pa. 8:3).

Shalom, HAZARD.

I realize you've come late to the discussion, but that is quite the opposite of what Paul was talking about! The Greek word "tritos" meaning "third" is almost always used as a reference to TIME! The "third day," the "third hour," the "third time," etc. Even in Matthew 22:26 when the Sadducees were presenting their hypothetical sheilah (puzzle) to the Messiah and said, "the third [husband]" of a certain woman, it is clear from the context that the woman didn't have seven husbands all at once, therefore, this would have been the "third husband" CHRONOLOGICALLY! These husbands were SEQUENTIAL!

What I'm saying is that Paul's "third heaven (sky)" is likewise CHRONOLOGICAL! There are three "heavens (skies)" SEQUENTIALLY! The first "heaven (sky)" was before the Flood, the second "heaven (sky)" is the one in which we exist between the Flood and the Fire just before the Great White Throne Judgment, and the third "heaven (sky)" is the one following the Fire, the "new heaven (sky)" of the "new earth!" That's what Peter was talking about as well in 2 Peter 3:3-13.

[HAZARD]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, HAZARD.

I realize you've come late to the discussion, but that is quite the opposite of what Paul was talking about! The Greek word "tritos" meaning "third" is almost always used as a reference to TIME! The "third day," the "third hour," the "third time," etc. Even in Matthew 22:26 when the Sadducees were presenting their hypothetical sheilah (puzzle) to the Messiah and said, "the third [husband]" of a certain woman, it is clear from the context that the woman didn't have seven husbands all at once, therefore, this would have been the "third husband" CHRONOLOGICALLY! These husbands were SEQUENTIAL!

What I'm saying is that Paul's "third heaven (sky)" is likewise CHRONOLOGICAL! There are three "heavens (skies)" SEQUENTIALLY! The first "heaven (sky)" was before the Flood, the second "heaven (sky)" is the one in which we exist between the Flood and the Fire just before the Great White Throne Judgment, and the third "heaven (sky)" is the one following the Fire, the "new heaven (sky)" of the "new earth!" That's what Peter was talking about as well in 2 Peter 3:3-13.

Hi Retrobyter.

Thank you. Here's how I see this.

I know tritos means third or three. It can be used anywhere by the writers who want to make the statement "three."

John 2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:  (A number, Day number three)

 John 21:14, This now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.  (A number, The third time).

John 21:17, He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. ( A number, Number one,  time not two but three times).

 

2 Corinthians 12:3 V 2, I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. (Which Heaven? Paul said a number, Three, the third heaven). He was caught up to the third Heaven, not the first not the second, but the third Heaven;

 

The third heaven here is called paradise where God lives. The other two are; the clouds (Gen. 1:8; 7:23; 8:2; Job 38:9, 34; Isa. 14:14; 1:15-20; 22:17; Isa. 14:12-14 and Psalms 8:3.) and the starry space between the Earth and the galaxies (Gen. 1"15-20; 22:17; Isa. 14:12-14; Pa. 8:3).

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Hi Retrobyter.

Thank you. Here's how I see this.

I know tritos means third or three. It can be used anywhere by the writers who want to make the statement "three."

John 2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:  (A number, Day number three)

 John 21:14, This now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.  (A number, The third time).

John 21:17, He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. ( A number, Number one,  time not two but three times).

 

2 Corinthians 12:3 V 2, I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. (Which Heaven? Paul said a number, Three, the third heaven). He was caught up to the third Heaven, not the first not the second, but the third Heaven;

 

The third heaven here is called paradise where God lives. The other two are; the clouds (Gen. 1:8; 7:23; 8:2; Job 38:9, 34; Isa. 14:14; 1:15-20; 22:17; Isa. 14:12-14 and Psalms 8:3.) and the starry space between the Earth and the galaxies (Gen. 1"15-20; 22:17; Isa. 14:12-14; Pa. 8:3).

Shalom, HAZARD.

I can understand your take, and you're welcome to it, but IMO it makes better sense to use Peter's words than to use some theory that someone somewhere developed who knows when but was propagated with the Old Scofield Reference Bible (KJV). I've been studying this for several years and EVERY verse in the Bible that uses the word "heaven" or the word "heavens" makes sense to use the word "sky" or the word "skies" instead.

This makes Revelation 21:1-2 say...

Revelation 21:1-2
1 And I saw a new sky and a new earth: for the first sky and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of the sky, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
KJV

This means that it's not "God's abode" that is destroyed and re-created but the ATMOSPHERE that is destroyed and re-created, along with the earth, the GROUND! It's this planet's BIOSPHERE that is destroyed and re-created, not the Universe and certainly not "God's Abode!"

The word "paradise" is not a translation of a Greek word; it's a TRANSLITERATION of the Greek word "paradeisos" (NT:3857, pronounced "par-ah-DICE-os"). This word is from the Hebrew word "pardeec" (OT:6508, pronounced "par-DACE"). Both words mean "a PARK," specifically a "PARK OF TREES" or an "ORCHARD." Each of these words is found three times in each Testament (Nehemiah 2:8; Ecclesiastes 2:5; Song of Songs 4:13; Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4; Revelation 2:7).

I can show you biblically and precisely where "paradise" exists. All it takes is two passages, both in Revelation: Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 21:1-22:5.

Revelation 2:7
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
KJV

Revelation 21:1-22:5
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
KJV

As one can see, this New Jerusalem comes down from God out of the sky (i.e., it lands) upon the New Earth. And, within this city, in the middle of its street, grows the Tree of Life. Therefore, Yeshua`s words name this city (or at least the park within this city), "Paradise." Therefore, Paradise = the New Jerusalem or Paradise is a subset of the New Jerusalem.

Also, any description of "Heaven" that we have used in the past really comes from the description of the New Jerusalem - the golden city, the streets of pure gold like transparent glass, the gates of pearl, the Tree of Life, ... EVERYTHING is about the New Jerusalem, not "Heaven!"

 

[HAZARD]

Hi Retrobyter

Its not my take and I'm welcome to it? And Its not some theory that someone somewhere developed, I quoted what Scripture teaches regarding the third Heaven which still exists now and where God dwells now, not in the future.

The new heaven and New Earth are not yet here? I agree with all you say regarding the New Heaven and Earth, but he was taken up to the third Heaven where God now  dwells according to Scripture; 2 Cor. 12:2.

Its a Revelation about the future,

2 Cor. 1:1, "It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord."

He was caught up to the third heaven to get a revelation,

2 Cor. 12:1-2, "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the THIRD HEAVEN,"

Its where God dwells now until the New Heaven and new Earth are formed and God will then dwell with men here on Earth when New Jerusalem comes down from God.

That's what I am saying.

[Your closest friendnt]

On 22 January, 2016 at 11:07 PM, HAZARD said:

 

The new heaven and New Earth are not yet here? 

A very interesting statement.

It says, that we are still in the old heaven and earth, and we can not ignore the world in the bottom of the earth. (this is a hind).

I think that you could be ready and willing to described the old heaven and earth.

according to your statment, which you made with great confidence and you sound that it is unrefutable, we are in the old heaven and earth, and that nothing has change not in the heavens or earth and or in the bottom of the earth.

I will be very much oblige. 

 

[HAZARD]

13 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

2 Peter 3:3,A very interesting statement.

It says, that we are still in the old heaven and earth, and we can not ignore the world in the bottom of the earth. (this is a hind).

I think that you could be ready and willing to described the old heaven and earth.

according to your statment, which you made with great confidence and you sound that it is unrefutable, we are in the old heaven and earth, and that nothing has change not in the heavens or earth and or in the bottom of the earth.

I will be very much oblige. 

 

 2 Peter 3:3, Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
   

V 4, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
   

V 5, For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing1 out of the water and in the water:
   

V 6, Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
   

V 7, But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

 a) 2 Peter 3:3, Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
 

Peter in his ministry he met some people who Received the Gospel with gladness, and at the same time he met many who were scoffers and oppose ridiculed him, following their own way, then he remember they word of the prophet. Peter said that after the great commission, when they found them selfs among the gentiles in strange places, they met many ungodly scoffers. For him the last days were not the days when theses words were spoken, but his own days, long time after the words of the prophet were spoken., and those days came with the proclamation of the Gospel among the Gentiles. Simply to put it, not everyone, who hears the Gospel will believe, like what happen to Paul, almost every where he went, and in Ephesous. 

Peter was saying, don't loose hart, keep on proclaiming the Gospel.

1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

b) V 4, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
 

Those perhaps were people, who mew the scriptures of the coming Christ, and had interpret things in their own way, the same way it happens today, "look what is happening around, why God does not do anything, maybe there in not God. 

1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

c) V 5, For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing1 out of the water and in the water:
   

Something Peter said, he is not talking having the samethings in his mine as some of us may say so.

1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

d) V 6, Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
 

He is now talking about the flood of Noah, the his previous statment must make reference to pre-flood.

1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

e) V 7, But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Peter all the while is talking about the phycical world, 

Now read carefuly, he is making reference that someone will judge everyone in heaven and earth, 

Not an actual fire, then nothing will be left, and no one.

I don't want to ignore the verses you have posted, and I am trying to see the relevance to the New Earth, and the New Heavens, and the New  World in the Bottom of the Earth.

Jesus said: just like a garment, you take off the all one and you put on the new one, that's how is going to happen, the earth will put on the new garment. I hope that you don't see those thinks phycically, as scalping the earth and then transplant a new scalp on the earth, because this is not about the earth, it is about Jesus who has die for all and has cleance the whole earth, the people of the earth, just like in the vision of Peter. 

Things have change there is no more The old, the new has come, all things are made new. Ask Peter and Paul, the Life of God has come to the whole world, this Life was not given to anyone before, and can not come through obedience to the Mosaic Law, only through faith in Jesus Christ. The new has come God is for the whole world, through  Jesus Christ.

We have new heavens the old is gone,

Stephan show the vision and by proclaiming it, it cost him his life.

Heavens are open to mankind, Jesus is throne as the Christ,  

In two worlds not only the things in the heavens have change but at the same time the things in Hades or Seol ( if you prefer) ,

The devil can not harvest anymore, all the people of the world, 

In fact he can not harvest anyone anymore, Jesus is the one who decides the fait of everyone, 

The devil in the old he took every one and no one could get away, or escape from him, because there was only one inhertance for mankind.

Jesus gave us the new inheritance, the heavenly one, we have a new world. 

[HAZARD]

"1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

d) V 6, Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
 

He is now talking about the flood of Noah, the his previous statment must make reference to pre-flood."

 

Actually he is talking about Lucifers flood not Noahs!

[Your closest friendnt]

3 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

 

 

 

Actually he is talking about Lucifers flood not Noahs!

What is the lucifers flood?