FINDING COMMON GROUND IN DANIEL

[Marilyn C]

Hi Serving,

Now you said -

`

The Media Persian empire is over, so is the Greek empire over etc .. and when God says the rest of those beasts dominions were taken away etc, He is just generalizing and isn't really JUST speaking about those past empires (because they are already gone as world powers) or "their contemporary others" just losing their dominions, but ALL kingdoms on earth will lose their dominions to Christ

. `[/quote]

I`m glad you said those past Empires are over (God has actually judged them). However you cannot say that God is generalising & isn`t really speaking about those empires. God is very precise in His language & meaning. So to say He `isn`t really speaking about those empires,` is your opinion & not grounded in correct interpretation of God`s word, there bro.

I do realise you have studied & have a certain view (as most of us do) but you need to be true to God`s word & I believe, to think again on that point. If the Lord wanted specifically a general comment then He would have said `the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,` (v. 27). However we see specifically He said `the rest of the beasts,......(Lion/Eagle, bear, leopard) their lives were prolonged.` (v. 12) Those beasts thus need to be contemporary to the last beast.

Marilyn.

 

[Serving]

20 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Serving,

Now you said -

The Media Persian empire is over, so is the Greek empire over etc .. and when God says the rest of those beasts dominions were taken away etc, He is just generalizing and isn't really JUST speaking about those past empires (because they are already gone as world powers) or "their contemporary others" just losing their dominions, but ALL kingdoms on earth will lose their dominions to Christ

. `

I`m glad you said those past Empires are over (God has actually judged them). However you cannot say that God is generalising & isn`t really speaking about those empires. God is very precise in His language & meaning. So to say He `isn`t really speaking about those empires,` is your opinion & not grounded in correct interpretation of God`s word, there bro.

I do realise you have studied & have a certain view (as most of us do) but you need to be true to God`s word & I believe, to think again on that point. If the Lord wanted specifically a general comment then He would have said `the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,` (v. 27). However we see specifically He said `the rest of the beasts,......(Lion/Eagle, bear, leopard) their lives were prolonged.` (v. 12) Those beasts thus need to be contemporary to the last beast.

Hi M,

Okay, how about this then .. just read the next two verses for clarity as to what I really mean ..

Daniel 7:13-14

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

So ALL people (dominions) will serve Him .. meaning that ALL nations (dominions) have their lives preserved and not just those few beasts, which is what I am saying.

I hope that helped?

 

 

[Serving]

7 minutes ago, Serving said:

Hi M,

Okay, how about this then .. just read the next two verses for clarity as to what I really mean ..

Daniel 7:13-14

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

So ALL people (dominions) will serve Him .. meaning that ALL nations (dominions) have their lives preserved and not just those few beasts, which is what I am saying.

I hope that helped?

 

 

And just to make myself a little clearer again sis, when Christ returns it is written that it is ONLY the WICKED & the PROUD and MIGHTY are to be destroyed .. not every unbeliever is wicked, so those unbelievers who are not wicked etc will be spared and given the LAST opportunity to learn of Christ during the millennium.

Just that their dominion (authority) is taken away is all .. and ALL nations are as beasts to God.

Serving.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Serving,

Yes good detail there bro. However it still behoves us to understand that God specifically says those beasts (lion/eagle, bear & leopard) large kingdoms will have their lives extended. And yes all peoples will serve the Lord & all dominion will be given to Him, & those `beast` kingdoms will be part of that. They are still contemporary & specifically NAMED.

Marilyn.

[Serving]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Serving,

Yes good detail there bro. However it still behoves us to understand that God specifically says those beasts (lion/eagle, bear & leopard) large kingdoms will have their lives extended. And yes all peoples will serve the Lord & all dominion will be given to Him, & those `beast` kingdoms will be part of that. They are still contemporary & specifically NAMED.

Marilyn.

Thanks M,

You are making me work though .. LOL ..

Okay, time for me to be crystal clear as to my statements/reasons that God doesn't really mean the lion/leopard etc in that particular verse .. maybe I should have done this first .. forgive me .. I was cutting corners & keeping it light .. so here it goes :

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Notice the "after this" statement .. Daniel is honing in on the last beast and not the other beasts (not the Lion/Bear/Leopard) ..

Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Notice Daniel is focussing on the parts .. it takes the parts to make up the WHOLE ..

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

THEIR thrones were cast down .. the 10 kings thrones who Daniel is speaking of .. THOSE thrones .. THOSE 10 beasts that make up ONE BEAST .. their dominions (thrones/power/authority) were cast down .. THEIR EMPIRE destroyed .. their UNION destroyed .. BUT not the parts (meaning NOT their home populations as a whole destroyed, but their UNION/JOINT EMPIRE was destroyed along with all personal rule)

Daniel 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Daniel 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

See how it switches to the false prophet .. THAT beast .. the 2nd BEAST of rev 13 .. and his body is the 10 kings who SUPPORT him

Daniel 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

The REST of the HORNS kingdoms .. THOSE BEASTS lives were prolonged .. NOT their UNION which was destroyed .. but their independent nations POPULATIONS prolonged .. but ALL those RULERS were definitely destroyed.

(I just EDITED this like 8 times .. I need to sleep now)

So sorry if it isn't written / explained so well, I have not been to bed yet and it is now 8 am and I am beginning to get all hazy .. but I think I made my point?

If not, I'm sure you'll be onto it for round 2 ..

Serving.

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, Serving said:

Yes true, but look at WHO you had to incorporate into the mix to make that work .. MANKIND .. which is my perspective .. SEE how they come to the same end anyways?? So there isn't really any need to debate that aspect because I am certain of my interpretation just as you are of yours .. but the END RESULT is the SAME.

Which is why, for example, Last Daze and I don't bother arguing over it .. it's pointless to harp on technicalities when the end result is agreed upon anyways .. at least there is still some common ground.

All of this is really academic to me anyway, because on this earth, "all politics is local." None of these beasts will have authority in the realm of the Four Corners of the States of the Cross, which lands are Covered by the Blood. These beasts will be Interesting to watch, however, until the Day comes.

[Serving]

1 minute ago, WilliamL said:

All of this is really academic to me anyway, because on this earth, "all politics is local." None of these beasts will have authority in the realm of the Four Corners of the States of the Cross, which lands are Covered by the Blood. These beasts will be Interesting to watch, however, until the Day comes.

Agreed .. they are technicalities we could debate over and over and over without resolve .. but we don't need to when we see the same end result .. men AND angels get deposed by Christ like you alluded to just now.

And it sure will be interesting to finally see who's who .. interesting but scary too .. since they will be coming for us with their accursed mark of the beast.

Thanks William.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Serving,

You explained yourself there, bro. And it`s good to see why you think that. Now we need to get some facts straight.

1. The `thrones.` (Dan. 7: 9)

`I watched till thrones were put in place...` (NKJ) `

`I kept looking until thrones were set up...` (NAS)

Those `thrones,` are related to the `court was seated,` (v. 10) This is the pictorial representation of the High Court of heaven with the Lord, the Ancient of Days, the great multitude of angels & the heavenly court about to pronounce judgment upon the `world system.`  

 

2. The 10 kings. (Dan. 7: 24)

`The 10 horns are 10 kings...` (NKJ)

Now bro, no where does God call those kings, `beasts.` That would make 14 beasts & it is just NOT there. These 10 kings are on the 4th beast, as you noted too. However they are NOT 10 beasts. They are a multiple leadership of the 4th beast. 

 

You are trying to fit God`s word into your thoughts. It`s good that you are trying to think `outside the box` but in doing that we need to look at what God`s word actually says. Now I just read your post again & realise you have `round 2` coming up, so let`s hear that too. And yes we all need to be heard right through our thoughts, so go for it bro.

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 19, 2016 by Marilyn C

[WilliamL]

14 hours ago, Serving said:

Agreed .. they are technicalities we could debate over and over and over without resolve .. but we don't need to when we see the same end result .. men AND angels get deposed by Christ like you alluded to just now.

Agreed. The underlined part is what a lot of people don't really get, how big a factor this will be. At the end of every Age, there come both ascents and descents; and at the end of this Age, many angelic-powers (as well as earthly rulers both spiritual and human) will be cast down, and many men will ascend to take their places under the "new administration" of the Kingdom of Heaven. All praises be to the Most High, and to his Holy One.

[unworthydude]

On 1/15/2016 at 3:15 AM, Marilyn C said:

On 1/14/2016 at 9:39 AM, Serving said:

Hi Udude,

Re theory 1,

Agreed .. out of one of those 4 Greco (EDIT : sorry not empires but kingdoms is what I meant) will come the little horn .. but, just like the build up to his coming empire, it has to come from a baseplate .. and not forgetting that out of one (or more? can't remember) of those 4 Greco kingdoms also came an ALLIANCE/MERGING with the emerging Roman Empire .. the Greco-Roman Empire .. so even though the 4th beast represents Rome it too is but a build up to the REAL FOCUS of the 4th beasts EVENTUAL FUTURE kingdom .. other words, I see the 4th beast as a DUALITY .. as the common link between the Brass & Iron's HERITAGE from whence the false prophet (ant-Christ) will emerge.

Theory 2,

I'm not feeling to be honest.

Theory 3,

You mean the 4 carpenters coming to flay those Gentile nations which raised up their horns over Israel & Judah right?

I'm not 100% sure what you mean so could you please re-word it for me bro? (sometimes I'm not so bright ;0)

And as far as the 7 heads and 10 horns theory ..

I like that explanation the most

 

Hi Serving,

Thank you for looking into this. Yes I realise that the 4th beast did not take away the other beasts dominion. Glad you see that too. However the point is that these other beasts are there & will go into the Millennium, but not ruling. So we then realise that the - Lion/Eagle, the bear, the leopard super powers are therefore all contemporary & NOT historic.

Glad you see that these nations entering the millennium.

Marilyn.

There seems to be both a historic and contemporary thing going on in the text. The imagery starts historically but remains in the future. Perhaps they remain as geographic people groups as other nations mentioned, like Edom, Moab, Persia, etc. We can't say they are not historic when Daniel tells Neb that he is the head of gold. Either he is or he isn't. Gotta stick to Daniel. The visions begin with Nebuchadnezzar, the King of Babylon, 634 – 562 BC and ends with the anti-christ.

• Dan 2:38  and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the children of man, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the heavens, making you rule over them all—you are the head of gold.
• Dan 2:28  but there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and he has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will be in the latter days.

I don't think they are successive kingdoms based on Zachariah 1:18-21 and Hosea 13:7-8. The purpose of the nations is all that matters.

• Zec 1:18-21  And I lifted my eyes and saw, and behold, four horns!  (19)  And I said to the angel who talked with me, "What are these?" And he said to me, "These are the horns that have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem."  (20)  Then the LORD showed me four craftsmen.  (21)  And I said, "What are these coming to do?" He said, "These are the horns that scattered Judah, so that no one raised his head. And these have come to terrify them, to cast down the horns of the nations who lifted up their horns against the land of Judah to scatter it."

I'm fully convinced the big picture is that the antichrist is the final metal/beast kingdom sent to judge and devour Israel for her sins. The metals and beast imagery were part of the judgments in Duet.

• Deu 28:23-26  And the heavens over your head shall be bronze, and the earth under you shall be iron.  (24)  The LORD will make the rain of your land powder. From heaven dust shall come down on you until you are destroyed.  (25)  "The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You shall go out one way against them and flee seven ways before them. And you shall be a horror to all the kingdoms of the earth.  (26)  And your dead body shall be food for all birds of the air and for the beasts of the earth, and there shall be no one to frighten them away.

Look at the same imagery of the four beast kingdoms sent to attack Israel...

• Hos 13:4-9  But I am the LORD your God from the land of Egypt; you know no God but me, and besides me there is no savior.  (5)  It was I who knew you in the wilderness, in the land of drought;  (6)  but when they had grazed, they became full, they were filled, and their heart was lifted up; therefore they forgot me.  (7)  So I am to them like a lion; like a leopard I will lurk beside the way.  (8)  I will fall upon them like a bear robbed of her cubs; I will tear open their breast, and there I will devour them like a lion, as a wild beast would rip them open.  (9)  He destroys you, O Israel, for you are against me, against your helper.

Nebuchadnezzar was sent to destroy Jerusalem and take them into captivity. He was sent against Israel and so too will the antichrist. That leaves two other kings who "scattered" Israel. If you've read my other posts. I believe it's proven that Jerusalem is Mystery Babylon. The antichrist is not just some random bad guy but has a direct purpose. Remember, the devil is God's devil. God will use him for his purposes.

• Rev 17:16-17  And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire,  (17)  for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.
• Dan 11:31  Forces from him shall appear and profane the temple and fortress, and shall take away the regular burnt offering. And they shall set up the abomination that makes desolate.

Who are the other two kings, prior to the antichrist, who have 'scattered' Israel? I figure it's Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the 2nd century greek tyrant who sacked Jerusalem and persecuted the Jews. Then you have Titus from Rome who destroyed the Jewish temple and persecuted the Jews in 70 A.D.. The Medo/Persian empire was actually kind to the Jews as Cyrus even sent them back home to rebuild their temple. After Rome, you can't really say they had a home to be thrown out of. They are in their land again and the Muslims really hate them. Is God stirring up a fourth and final enemy to judge His people? Look at this modern map I overlayed with an ancient map to line up the ancient cities who are foretold to attack Israel...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2016 by unworthydude