FINDING COMMON GROUND IN DANIEL

[Serving]

13 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Very true. Why did the Russians call their emperors czars? Why did the Germans call theirs Kaisers? Because they both saw themselves as descendants of the Roman Caesars, of course: the name from which both derive. Romanism never died, whether people choose to see it or not.

But Romanism, being the 6th head of Rev. 17, the "one is" even in John's day, will someday be replaced by the 7th head, "the other [that] has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue for a short time." 17:10 Perhaps Islamic, but that remains to be seen.

Yes agreed, another example was when the British royalty sent out letters to all the royal houses of Europe in the 15 or 1600's telling them all it was best to drop 'Of the Holy Roman Empire' from their official titles as it was becoming unpopular amongst the masses.

Doesn't mean that they still today don't see themselves of that 'proud house' in private though ..

[Serving]

11 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

This is part of the reason why I see the beast as a fallen angel rather than the kingdom he spawns.  The lake of fire was created for Satan and his angels.  Another reason is that the beast comes up out of the abyss.  I don't know of any scriptures that speak of kingdoms coming out of the abyss or getting cast into the lake of fire.

I have read in Daniel that the 4 beast's come out of the sea of which the last beast is also being mentioned :

Daniel 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

Seeing it is the last beast, then it has to be the rev 13 beast since that beast is the last beast which fights against Christ's return ..

Anyways, back to the kings .. the kings are earthly

Daniel 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

And the 7 headed Beast where the Harlot sits (she sits on the beast), which the Angel explained like this :

Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

So to me, the beast is made up of people as rev 17 says .. whereas the Harlot .. well 'she' is the actual spiritual link/side of things in my discernment.

I also see the lake of fire is for humans too :

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I do see where you are coming from in relation to the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit .. but I see it in a another way, that this beast has been Satan's longing since Babel .. which is why I often see the coming 'empire' as Babel II .. Satan gets his global empire right at the end, just as it was right at the 'beginning' with Nimrod (archetype for the false prophet) and Babel as the coming global order.

Nevertheless Daze, you do know that I agree with you in that every nation does have a fallen angel as a ruling prince for to administer Satan's empire of which empire (kingdoms) Satan boasted about to Jesus in Luke 4 .. so 10 human kings representing 10 human nations will also by default consist of 10 fallen angelic kings too ..

[Serving]

36 minutes ago, Serving said:

Yes agreed, another example was when the British royalty sent out letters to all the royal houses of Europe in the 15 or 1600's telling them all it was best to drop 'Of the Holy Roman Empire' from their official titles as it was becoming unpopular amongst the masses.

Doesn't mean that they still today don't see themselves of that 'proud house' in private though ..

Oh, the British Royal house also used that title 'Of the Holy Roman Empire' too I should add.

 

[Last Daze]

20 minutes ago, Serving said:

I have read in Daniel that the 4 beast's come out of the sea of which the last beast is also being mentioned :

Daniel 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

Seeing it is the last beast, then it has to be the rev 13 beast since that beast is the last beast which fights against Christ's return ..

Anyways, back to the kings .. the kings are earthly

Daniel 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

And the 7 headed Beast where the Harlot sits (she sits on the beast), which the Angel explained like this :

Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

So to me, the beast is made up of people as rev 17 says .. whereas the Harlot .. well 'she' is the actual spiritual link/side of things in my discernment.

I also see the lake of fire is for humans too :

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I do see where you are coming from in relation to the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit .. but I see it in a another way, that this beast has been Satan's longing since Babel .. which is why I often see the coming 'empire' as Babel II .. Satan gets his global empire right at the end, just as it was right at the 'beginning' with Nimrod (archetype for the false prophet) and Babel as the coming global order.

Nevertheless Daze, you do know that I agree with you in that every nation does have a fallen angel as a ruling prince for to administer Satan's empire of which empire (kingdoms) Satan boasted about to Jesus in Luke 4 .. so 10 human kings representing 10 human nations will also by default consist of 10 fallen angelic kings too ..

Yes, it stands to reason that those who follow Satan in this life will get his reward.

• Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels'.  Matthew 25:41

For discussion purposes, I'm good with the way you see it.

[Serving]

On Sunday, 10 January 2016 at 3:15 PM, unworthydude said:

I currently have three theories on Daniel. I know none one believes this, but hey, I read it for myself, between God and I. I'll try and be as succinct as possible.

My Theory 1:

The visions given to Daniel expand in detail of the same culminating events. The main thing to harmonize is the fourth kingdom and the antichrist details. Each vision chapter unfolds more and more details of the precious vision. The 4 kingdoms are only those kingdoms that lead to the antichrist final kingdom.  Babylon=Gold=Lion > Medo-Persia=Silver= Bear and Ram > Greece=Bronze=Leopard and Goat > Antichrist kingdom=Iron. There is no Rome depicted. The goat attacks the ram= Greece attacks Persia. Greece splits into four kingdoms. Out of one these kingdoms comes the final future antichrist 4th kingdom.

My Theory 2.

The visions of Daniel are all future kingdoms in the same geographic territories. Babylon represents future Iraq or Israel > Medo-Persia represents Iran or Iraq/both >Greece represents Turkey and the 4th kingdom is all of them combined under the antichrist. Rev 13:2.

My Theory 3.

Based on Zachariah 1:21 and Hosea 13:7-8, we see the Lord sends four nations to judge Israel. If we try to harmonize these four historic king nations with Daniel it paints a different picture. The kings who have judged Israel in the past are not consecutive nations who follow succession. We have Babylon=Nebuchadnezzar > Greece= Antiochus IV Epiphanes > Rome=Titus > antichrist=?  Cyrus the Persian was kind to Israel and sent them back to build to Jerusalem to build their temple.

As far as the 7 heads and 10 horns, I think they could be as Serving has described.. 7 historic nations and one of them is the final beast who has 10 horns. 1. Egypt 2. Assyria 3. Babylon. 4. Persia 5. Greece. 6. Rome. 7.? 8.?  It could also be that these 7 nations are all futuristic nations comprising a set that is not part of the antichrist kingdom. I'm not too sure. Love the discussion though!

Hi Udude,

Re theory 1,

Agreed .. out of one of those 4 Greco (EDIT : sorry not empires but kingdoms is what I meant) will come the little horn .. but, just like the build up to his coming empire, it has to come from a baseplate .. and not forgetting that out of one (or more? can't remember) of those 4 Greco kingdoms also came an ALLIANCE/MERGING with the emerging Roman Empire .. the Greco-Roman Empire .. so even though the 4th beast represents Rome it too is but a build up to the REAL FOCUS of the 4th beasts EVENTUAL FUTURE kingdom .. other words, I see the 4th beast as a DUALITY .. as the common link between the Brass & Iron's HERITAGE from whence the false prophet (ant-Christ) will emerge.

Theory 2,

I'm not feeling to be honest.

Theory 3,

You mean the 4 carpenters coming to flay those Gentile nations which raised up their horns over Israel & Judah right?

I'm not 100% sure what you mean so could you please re-word it for me bro? (sometimes I'm not so bright ;0)

And as far as the 7 heads and 10 horns theory ..

I like that explanation the most

 

[Serving]

11 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Yes, it stands to reason that those who follow Satan in this life will get his reward.

• Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels'.  Matthew 25:41

For discussion purposes, I'm good with the way you see it.

Thanks Daze, for 'discussion purposes' is very helpful ..

And as they say, 'you're a gentleman & a scholar' my friend .. PS, I mean no offence calling you a scholar either

[Serving]

21 hours ago, Serving said:

Hey guys,

Sorry I haven't been online lately ..

I was thinking .. why don't we just skip Daniel for now to save all the disagreements? .. I mean, seeing there's five different opinions already, it's going to save a lot of time and I don't think we're all going to find any sort of 'common ground' any time soon .. and that's called 'cake in MY face' .. LOL ..

So I'm skipping all the build up and going straight to the end .. I WON"T add any commentary YET .. just the PICTURE first.

The TWO beasts of rev 13 ..

NOTE : BLUE scripture stands for what is the 'first beast' & GREEN scripture for what is the '2nd beast' UP TO A POINT before it becomes THEY ..  and RED stands for the overall description (the generalized SUM) whereas the BLUE & the GREEN are the DETAILS within that 7th head of the 7 headed beast which becomes the 8th and FINAL ..

NOTE : the first beast isn't described until AFTER the RED verse .. also, this is greatly COMPRESSED 'data' as it were that Daniel helps to 'un-zip'.

REV 13

1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

 

 

This is the SIMPLIFIED picture that I can see .. 'ignoring' the RED verse for now, what we are really looking at are TWO beasts which become ONE beast since the false prophet JOINED the 10 kings .. meaning .. in reality, we are actually dealing with ONE beast being described in TWO parts .. the EMPIRE and It's KING.

 

Oh ..

I should point out HOW I came to the conclusion that the 2nd beast is also within the first beast description of rev 13 that I laid out above ..

In the first beast description it is mentioned that it, the first beast wages war against the saints and overcomes them

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

BUT .. BUT .. Daniel said that it was the LITTLE HORN (king) HIMSELF who WAGES WAR against the saints and it is because of HIM that the saints ARE overcome (PHYSICALLY defeated) .. that got my alarm bells ringing quite some years ago now ..

Daniel 7:20-21

20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

That was my first clue ..

The  MOUTH also gave it away for me, how the first beast was GIVEN a MOUTH ..

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

YET .. Daniel also mentions a MOUTH too .. and Daniel relates that mouth to the little horn .. the false prophet himself .. note HOW Daniel describes the MOUTH ..

Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Daniel 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

So Daniel makes sure we are aware of this MOUTH and from WHOM it speaks out of ..

That was my 2nd clue .. besides a couple others .. but you get my point ..

Then after those insights, I thereafter saw the first beast descriptive as really encompassing TWO beasts in one OVERALL and generalized descriptive with the 2nd beast being added detail for us to identify that KING when he arises.

Just though I should mention it.

[MorningGlory]

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

That used to bug me too.  Technically, it is a series of revelations within the revelation; kind of like the Bible is a book of books.  I've come to accept the terms as synonyms.

I kind of halfway agree but it just jars me and I can't figure out why; a LOT of people use 'Revelations' but I just can't ger around my dislike of the term.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Serving,

Now you said -

`

I have never read that the Leopard was ever trodden down by the 4th beast,

[/quote]

Have you considered these scriptures -

`After this I saw ....a fourth beast...it was devouring, breaking in pieces, & trampling the residue with its feet...` (Dan. 7: 7)

`As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season....` (Dan. 7: 12)

Clearly the terrifying beast (4th) treads down the others. Then the court sits & takes away its power but the other 3 beasts (lion/eagle, bear, leopard) all have their lives extended. Thus they are contemporary super powers.

Marilyn.  

[Serving]

29 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Serving,

Now you said -

`

I have never read that the Leopard was ever trodden down by the 4th beast,

Have you considered these scriptures -

`After this I saw ....a fourth beast...it was devouring, breaking in pieces, & trampling the residue with its feet...` (Dan. 7: 7)

`As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season....` (Dan. 7: 12)

Clearly the terrifying beast (4th) treads down the others. Then the court sits & takes away its power but the other 3 beasts (lion/eagle, bear, leopard) all have their lives extended. Thus they are contemporary super powers.

Marilyn.  

Hi M,

There is a mistake in there M .. it is not the 4th beast that that took their dominion away, it is Christ doing it at His coming .. look again ..

Daniel 7:9-12

9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

See how the beast was destroyed by Christ THEN this occurred :

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

When Christ returns ALL NATIONS lose their DOMINIONS (power of SELF rule) .. not only those beasts who still operate in the world minus their empires of old, but EVERY beast on the planet loses their dominion to Christ's dominion.

Their lives are prolonged, meaning their populations will have survivors DURING the MILLENNIUM living OUTSIDE of the kingdom boundaries is all.

Their needs to be HEATHEN survivors over the 1000 years otherwise WHO will populate Gog's armies AFTER the millennium when Satan gets released to gather the last remnants of mankind who still even then reject Christ?

Serving.