Religion: “I obey-therefore I’m accepted.” Gospel: “I’m accepted-therefore I obey.”

[angels4u]

1. Religion:

2. “I obey-therefore I’m accepted.”
3. Motivation is based on fear and insecurity.
4. I obey God in order to get things from God
5. When circumstances in my life go wrong, I am angry at God or my self, since I believe, like Job’s friends that anyone who is good deserves a comfortable life.
6. When I am criticized I am furious or devastated because it is critical that I think of myself as a ‘good person’. Threats to that self-image must be destroyed at all costs.
7. My prayer life consists largely of petition and it only heats up when I am in a time of need. My main purpose in prayer is control of the environment.
8. My self-view swings between two poles. If and when I am living up to my standards, I feel confident, but then I am prone to be proud and unsympathetic to failing people. If and when I am not living up to standards, I feel humble, but not confident-I feel like a failure.
9. My identity and self-worth are based mainly on how hard I work. Or how moral I am, and so I must look down on those I perceive as lazy or immoral. I disdain and feel superior to ‘the other.’
10. Since I look to my own pedigree or performance for my spiritual acceptability, my heart manufactures idols. It may be my talents, my moral record, my personal discipline, my social status, etc. I absolutely have to have them so they serve as my main hope, meaning, happiness, security, and significance, whatever I may say I believe about God.

11. Gospel:

12. “I’m accepted-therefore I obey.”
13. Motivation is based on grateful joy.
14. I obey God to get to God-to delight and resemble Him.
15. When circumstances in my life go wrong, I struggle but I know all my punishment fell on Jesus and that while he may allow this for my training, he will exercise his Fatherly love within my trial.
16. When I am criticized I struggle, but it is not critical for me to think of myself as a ‘good person.’ My identity is not built on my record or my performance but on God’s love for me in Christ. I can take criticism. That’s how I became a Christian.
17. My prayer life consists of generous stretches of praise and adoration. My main purpose is fellowship with Him.
18. My self-view is not based on a view of my self as a moral achiever. In Christ I am simul iustus et peccator—simultaneously sinful and lost yet accepted in Christ. I am so bad he had to die for me and I am so loved he was glad to die for me. This leads me to deeper and deeper humility and confidence at the same time. Neither swaggering nor sniveling.
19. My identity and self-worth are centered on the one who died for His enemies, who was excluded from the city for me. I am saved by sheer grace. So I can’t look down on those who believe or practice something different from me. Only by grace I am what I am. I’ve no inner need to win arguments.
20. I have many good things in my life—family, work, spiritual disciplines, etc. But none of these good things are ultimate things to me. None of them are things I absolutely have to have, so there is a limit to how much anxiety, bitterness, and despondency they can inflict on me when they are threatened and lost.

21. Adapted from Tim Keller

22. So many of us have some form of religion,but what is religion and what is the difference between religion and relationship,Tim Keller wrote some very good points about the difference between religion and the gospel ,do we recognize the difference and why or why not we think or do certain things? Are we doing it for the right reason?

[((Michael))]

 I have gone over so many passages regarding "Fear of the Lord", which has turned into a reverence. And I can't dispute that in a lot of the passages, the word fear is referring to reverence. But I'm reminded of when the people of Israel appeared before the Almighty on Mt. Sinai in both Exodus Chp 20. The people were so frightened that they were going to die just by hearing His voice, and begged Moses to intervene for them while also agreeing they would do all ADONAI required of them. This is both Moses and God's response:

Exodus 20:20 Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid; for God has come in order to test you, and in order that the fear of Him may remain with you, so that you may not sin."

Deuteronomy 5:29 'Oh that they had such a heart in them, that they would fear Me and keep all My commandments always, that it may be well with them and with their sons forever!

The last verse is God's response to the people fearing Him so badly they wanted a mediator. Although we have a better mediator today, there are far too many passages that tell us it is wise to fear the Almighty God. Once we learn what it means to fear the One True God, we realize there is nothing else to fear. I think over time, we as a people have become arrogant and proud that fearing a superior or subjecting our self to one in authority is not easily accepted. Yet throughout scripture it is common to see that God rewards humility and they humble will inherit the earth. I am going to be a hypocrite ( I think we rely on too many opinion's by men instead of scripture ) on this and post another man's opinion. I read a commentary by David Stern and this is what he had to say regarding the "fear of the Lord":

"It is not popular these days to point out that Elohim is an Elohim of wrath. People would rather quote John 4:8 ( Elohim is love ) and look no further. But it is in the context of His holiness, meaning His hatred for sin, and His justice, meaning His dispensing the punishment that sin brings on itself, that His love, mercy and grace become so precious.

Eccliasiastes 12:13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.
 

 

 

[Willa]

I obey because I am God's kid, and I both love and trust my Daddy.   But the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and when I am tempted often it is the fear of God's displeasure that keeps me from doing things that could be harmful to me, whether it be exceeding the speed limit or being dishonest.  I want to stay in constant fellowship with my Savior.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Angels,,,,,,,

      Very nice OP,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,interesting Topic ,I do understand what you/we mean by "religion" but really,isn't "religion" one's beliefs or a groups belief's?Does it have to be an organizations set of "traditional" customs & rituals,,,,,,,,,I don't know,personally I prefer to separate us from the pack by saying "Relationship"vs religion?

    I know we are both saying the same thing basically but there are even people that believe(or claim to) what the Gospel "says" but yet they are in dire need of having an intimate Relationship with our Lord,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,What do you think?                              Love,Kwik

[FresnoJoe]

Tumbling Tumble Weed

As the lily among thorns, so is my love among the daughters. Song Of Solomon 2:2

Blown In The Wind

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:8

Soon To Be A Bloom

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: John 15:26

In The Father's Garden Of Love

Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith? Luke 12:27-28

His Love Started It All

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation 4:11

And His Love Saves Whosoever Will

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Revelation 5:9-10

And His Glory Will End It All, So Who's It Really All About?

And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. Revelation 5:11-14

Bless His Holy Name~!

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Revelation 3:12-13

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[RustyAngeL]

On 4/4/2016 at 5:16 PM, ((Michael)) said:

 I have gone over so many passages regarding "Fear of the Lord", which has turned into a reverence. And I can't dispute that in a lot of the passages, the word fear is referring to reverence. But I'm reminded of when the people of Israel appeared before the Almighty on Mt. Sinai in both Exodus Chp 20. The people were so frightened that they were going to die just by hearing His voice, and begged Moses to intervene for them while also agreeing they would do all ADONAI required of them. This is both Moses and God's response:

Exodus 20:20 Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid; for God has come in order to test you, and in order that the fear of Him may remain with you, so that you may not sin."

Deuteronomy 5:29 'Oh that they had such a heart in them, that they would fear Me and keep all My commandments always, that it may be well with them and with their sons forever!

The last verse is God's response to the people fearing Him so badly they wanted a mediator. Although we have a better mediator today, there are far too many passages that tell us it is wise to fear the Almighty God. Once we learn what it means to fear the One True God, we realize there is nothing else to fear. I think over time, we as a people have become arrogant and proud that fearing a superior or subjecting our self to one in authority is not easily accepted. Yet throughout scripture it is common to see that God rewards humility and they humble will inherit the earth. I am going to be a hypocrite ( I think we rely on too many opinion's by men instead of scripture ) on this and post another man's opinion. I read a commentary by David Stern and this is what he had to say regarding the "fear of the Lord":

"It is not popular these days to point out that Elohim is an Elohim of wrath. People would rather quote John 4:8 ( Elohim is love ) and look no further. But it is in the context of His holiness, meaning His hatred for sin, and His justice, meaning His dispensing the punishment that sin brings on itself, that His love, mercy and grace become so precious.

Eccliasiastes 12:13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.
 

 

 

Right, To fear the Lord does not mean we are afraid of Him.  It means we are to hold Him in Reverence.  To be in Awe of Him.  He doesn't want us to fear in so we run away, He want's us to to be so in Awe of Him we can't wait to run to Him.

[((Michael))]

52 minutes ago, RustyAngeL said:

Right, To fear the Lord does not mean we are afraid of Him.  It means we are to hold Him in Reverence.  To be in Awe of Him.  He doesn't want us to fear in so we run away, He want's us to to be so in Awe of Him we can't wait to run to Him.

I think it's both. I see both reverence and actual fear in a lot of the passages. I concede that there are several passages that speak of reverence, but how do you interpret the following passages:

Matthew 10:28 (NASB)²⁸ Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Philippians 2:1(NASB)¹² So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

Isaiah 8:12-13New American Standard Bible (NASB)

¹² “You are not to say, ‘It is a conspiracy!’
In regard to all that this people call a conspiracy,
And you are not to fear what they fear or be in dread of it.
¹³ “It is the Lord of hosts whom you should regard as holy.
And He shall be your fear,
And He shall be your dread.

 

Jeremiah 2:19New American Standard Bible (NASB)

¹⁹ “Your own wickedness will correct you,
And your apostasies will reprove you;
Know therefore and see that it is evil and bitter
For you to forsake the Lord your God,
And the dread of Me is not in you,” declares the Lord God of hosts.

 

Deuteronomy 21:21 (NASB)²¹ Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear.

 

Ephesians 6:5-6 (NASB)⁵ Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ; ⁶ not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.

 

There are several more passages I could post. Why is fearing the Almighty something bad? I concede that we are to reverence, but there is also needed a healthy understanding of fear. In the passages posted previously on the account when the people of Israel's encounter with the Almighty at Mt. Sinai, they were obviously frightened something fierce and God Himself said they spoke well in admitting it, according to how my bible reads in Deuteronomy chapter 5. This world we live in is missing fear of God. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[angels4u]

29 minutes ago, ((Michael)) said:

I think it's both. I see both reverence and actual fear in a lot of the passages. I concede that there are several passages that speak of reverence, but how do you interpret the following passages:

Matthew 10:28 (NASB)²⁸ Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Philippians 2:1(NASB)¹² So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

Isaiah 8:12-13New American Standard Bible (NASB)

¹² “You are not to say, ‘It is a conspiracy!’
In regard to all that this people call a conspiracy,
And you are not to fear what they fear or be in dread of it.
¹³ “It is the Lord of hosts whom you should regard as holy.
And He shall be your fear,
And He shall be your dread.

 

Jeremiah 2:19New American Standard Bible (NASB)

¹⁹ “Your own wickedness will correct you,
And your apostasies will reprove you;
Know therefore and see that it is evil and bitter
For you to forsake the Lord your God,
And the dread of Me is not in you,” declares the Lord God of hosts.

 

Deuteronomy 21:21 (NASB)²¹ Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear.

 

Ephesians 6:5-6 (NASB)⁵ Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ; ⁶ not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.

 

There are several more passages I could post. Why is fearing the Almighty something bad? I concede that we are to reverence, but there is also needed a healthy understanding of fear. In the passages posted previously on the account when the people of Israel's encounter with the Almighty at Mt. Sinai, they were obviously frightened something fierce and God Himself said they spoke well in admitting it, according to how my bible reads in Deuteronomy chapter 5. This world we live in is missing fear of God. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 John 4:18

 

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear has torment. He that fears is not made perfect in love.

 

Luke 1:74,75 That he would grant to us, that we being delivered out of the hand …

Romans 8:15 For you have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but …

2 Timothy 1:7 For God has not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of …

Hebrews 12:28 Why we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, …

 

 

1 John 4:12 No man has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells …

 

 

[((Michael))]

I said I conceded that there are passages that speak of reverence, but John 4:18 though quoted often isn't one I see as that. There is no fear in love, but that doesn't address the Fear of God. That is speaking of no fear in life, or ones walk in this life because they of the relationship they have with God. That doesn't address the passages above or the countless others. I don't see why people can't see that there is both in the scriptures. If Moses, David, Isaiah and all the high angels fear the one true God, why would I think I am going to be any different?

Edited June 13, 2016 by ((Michael))

[((Michael))]

So I already said I agreed with reverencing God, question is, should there be a healthy understanding of what it means to fear God?

Psalm 2:11 has both reverence and fear. The King James version uses word fear, the NASB uses reverence.

Worship the LORD with reverence And rejoice with trembling.

Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

Here are some more from David

Psalm 119:120 (NASB)

¹²⁰ My flesh trembles for fear of You,
And I am afraid of Your judgments.

 

Isaiah 66:2 (NASB)

² “For My hand made all these things,
Thus all these things came into being,” declares the Lord.
“But to this one I will look,
To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.

 

Jeremiah 5:22 (NASB)

²² ‘Do you not fear Me?’ declares the Lord.
‘Do you not tremble in My presence?
For I have placed the sand as a boundary for the sea,
An eternal decree, so it cannot cross over it.
Though the waves toss, yet they cannot prevail;
Though they roar, yet they cannot cross over it.

 

Maybe it's both reverence and fear?