fulfilled feasts

[Qnts2]

3 minutes ago, Joline said:

Yep we disagree yet agree. The feasts as we can see, and the temple ministry during the feasts, was a pattern and Shadow of the work Christ has performed in the true tabernacle as our high priest.

But for all out there consider. According to the earthly worldly tabernacle and priesthood, the order of Aaron had to enter twice. That is because as mere men, they had to make atonement first for their own sin.

Christ offered himself, going in once. He  had no sin to atone for first.

I did not present the original post about Jesus entering twice.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

I did not present the original post about Jesus entering twice.

Oh so you agree then that Christ entered into holy of holies of the true tabernacle as High priest on our behalf just once?

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

I think you mistakenly put in my nickname, as you are not responding to my post.

I do not know if Jesus entered the heavenly Holy of Holies once, twice or more. But, I do know that Jesus also did not need to be baptized for the repentance of sin as He had no sin, but submitted to John the Baptists baptism, so to 'fulfill all righteousness'. So, I do not believe that we can know at this time whether Jesus entered just once, or entered twice, but Jesus might enter twice if it involves the 'fulfilling righteousness' which must be fulfilled.        

 

I do not know why you do not know this. the book of Hebrews tells us of these things.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Joline

[WilliamL]

48 minutes ago, Joline said:

No, to say he needs to enter twice, is to say he had sin.

6  Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7  But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

11  But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12  Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
 

Christ had no sin for himself.

 

1 Cor. 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

1 Cor. 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

yep, it was our sin he took upon himself. He had no sin in himself. No need to enter in twice

[mevosper]

Q, I have to take issue with some things you've mentioned.

Quote

The other issue would be some information we have about the birth of Jesus. There were shepherds tending their flocks in the hills. The area of Bethlehem is a arid region, and mild climate. In dry season everything turns brown and stops growing. During the dry season, shepherds do not take their sheep out into the hills, because there is nothing for the flocks to eat. The dry season is approximately from June/July thru October. The rainy season doesn't start until the beginning of November. So, at the time of the Feast of Tabernacles, it is at the end of a long dry season and no shepherds would be with their sheep in the hills.

I'm not expert in sheep herding, so I have to pull my information from what I can find searching Google. This website (http://christiananswers.net/christmas/mythsaboutchristmas.html) says something quite contrary to what you are saying: "The normal practice was to keep the flocks in the fields from Spring to Autumn."

From another website:    "The sheep. Shepherds were “living out of doors and keeping watches in the night over their flocks.” (Luke 2:8) The bookDaily Life in the Time of Jesus notes that flocks lived in the open air from “the week before the Passover [late March]” through mid-November. It then adds: “They passed the winter under cover; and from this alone it may be seen that the traditional date for Christmas, in the winter, is unlikely to be right, since the Gospel says that the shepherds were in the fields.”

I will say that during my search, I did find arguments for and against Christ's birth in Sept vs Dec, with the flocks being one of the main points.

 

More about Tabernacle

Here is another interesting tidbit from the bible. This is not "date" related, but enhances the idea that God "tabernacled" with his people in the form of Jesus Christ: 

[Jhn 1:14 KJV] [14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The word dwelt is the Greek word for "to fix one's tabernacle, have one's tabernacle, abide (or live) in a tabernacle (or tent), tabernacle, to dwell". It is used this once in John, and then again in Rev 7:15, Rev 12:12, Rev 13:6, Rev 21:3. Revelation 21:3 I find especially interesting:

[Rev 21:3 KJV] [3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell[G4637] with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

[thereselittleflower]

35 minutes ago, mevosper said:

Q, I have to take issue with some things you've mentioned.

I'm not expert in sheep herding, so I have to pull my information from what I can find searching Google. This website (http://christiananswers.net/christmas/mythsaboutchristmas.html) says something quite contrary to what you are saying: "The normal practice was to keep the flocks in the fields from Spring to Autumn."

From another website:    "The sheep. Shepherds were “living out of doors and keeping watches in the night over their flocks.” (Luke 2:8) The bookDaily Life in the Time of Jesus notes that flocks lived in the open air from “the week before the Passover [late March]” through mid-November. It then adds: “They passed the winter under cover; and from this alone it may be seen that the traditional date for Christmas, in the winter, is unlikely to be right, since the Gospel says that the shepherds were in the fields.”

I will say that during my search, I did find arguments for and against Christ's birth in Sept vs Dec, with the flocks being one of the main points.

 

More about Tabernacle

Here is another interesting tidbit from the bible. This is not "date" related, but enhances the idea that God "tabernacled" with his people in the form of Jesus Christ: 

[Jhn 1:14 KJV] [14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The word dwelt is the Greek word for "to fix one's tabernacle, have one's tabernacle, abide (or live) in a tabernacle (or tent), tabernacle, to dwell". It is used this once in John, and then again in Rev 7:15, Rev 12:12, Rev 13:6, Rev 21:3. Revelation 21:3 I find especially interesting:

[Rev 21:3 KJV] [3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell[G4637] with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

I think there is a problem with your quote.

They obviously could not spend it under cover or their sheep would never graze.   Now if it means they took cover when it rained, that's one thing.  There is nothing saying it was raining when the Angels announced Jesus birth to them.   Just because it was the rainy season doesn't mean it was raining  24/7.

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, Joline said:

yep, it was our sin he took upon himself. He had no sin in himself. No need to enter in twice

Moses in Leviticus says twice. Paul says twice. I'll take their words over yours.

[Willa]

 

On 2/6/2016 at 7:14 AM, Qnts2 said:

I have no concern about the prophetic nature of the feasts with the spring feasts being fulfilled and the fall feasts in the future. I do not understand why you brought a conversation we were having on another forum into this forum.

But I will repeat what I said on the other forum

It is very clear that the spring feasts were fulfilled.

Jesus died on Passover as the Passover lamb. Communion is a celebration commemorating what Jesus said in the Passover seder.

Jesus rose again on the day of the first fruits wave offering. The church celebrates Easter commemorating this. In the Mosaic law, on the day of the first fruits wave offering, the count of the omer begins to 49. On the 50th day, is the Feast of first fruits, which is the church celebration of Pentacost. 

All of these feasts have been fulfilled and are celebrated by the church, (although altered to avoid a Jewish connection).

There is no church celebration of the fall feasts as they have not be transferred to the New Covenant yet. The fall feasts are all future when Jesus returns. All of the Holy Days in the Mosaic law are shadows pointing to Jesus. As these are fulfilled, Jesus will fulfill each one, and they will become Holy Days of remembering what Jesus has done.

When speaking about the future prophetic events, I am always reminded of the ancient writings in Judaism. The Rabbi's in Judaism, for a brief time, discussed the prophetic scripture about the Messiah, and tried to figure out such things as timing, and how the scriptures which say the Messiah would be triumphant vs the Messiah would die would work out. Reading the Rabbinic opinions of how the (for them) future prophesies would work out, some interpretations were very close to accurate and some were wrong but I could understand how they came up with their understanding. I realized that future prophesies can have a variety of interpretations, and even among Christians, our future prophesies have a lot of differing opinions. Some will be right or close to right and some will be wrong. We won't know for sure how they play out until we actually see them. So, what I propose as how the future prophesies will work out might be somewhat right and might be wrong. We will all know when Jesus returns and they are fulfilled.    

Rosh Hashanah is the first fall Holy day. In scripture, it is called Yom Teruah or the day of the trumpet blast. It is also, a call to repentance for Israel, and begins the 'Days of Awe'. While Israel, as a nation/group, are receiving a final call to repentance, the church might be raptured.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 

Yom Kippur is a national sacrifice. Not a sacrifice for an individual. Yom Kippur is a sacrifice for the nation. Scripture indicates that when Jesus returns, steps down on the Mt. Of Olives, during the great battle where Jesus defeats the armies attacking Israel, all the children of Israel who are alive and see Him will be saved. Israel will be saved as a nation. Since the time of Jesus death, resurrection, and Pentecost (the beginning of the assembly of Christians, people have individually been saved and added, one by one, to a new nation under the New Covenant for the last 2000 years. When all of living Israel is saved when Jesus returns, and are included, the New Nation will be complete, and Jesus death will have accomplished atonement for all or the New Nation.

Succoth is the celebration of the last in-gathering of the harvest and a remembrance of the time Israel wandered in the desert. I believe Succoth will be the millenium. Jesus will reign as King from Jerusalem. While, we are here now in a world ruled by the world, which is like the time in he desert, when Jesus rules as King on earth, among us, we will no longer living in the desert. Succoth is called in English Feast of Tabernacles, and Jesus will physically be tabernacling among us and with us all. All nations are commanded to come to Jerusalem on Succoth. I believe they come to honor King Jesus. 

On the last day of Succoth, or day after Succoth, there is a Holy Day called Simchat Torah. In Judaism, the Torah is read, selected section by section, through out the year. At the beginning of Simchat Torah (after sunset), the last portion is read and the next day, the first portion is read. The Torah prophesies the Messiah, and the time of Jacob's trouble (great tribulation), and the victory of the Messiah over Israel's enemies, and the Messiahs reign as King in Jerusalem during what is called the Messianic era. I believe Simchat Torah will be the end of the Millenium and the beginning of the New Heaven and New Earth.        

 

 

I agree with Qnts, and have always maintained that we really have to be Jewish to fully understand Scripture and to understand the prophecies of the end times as predicted by the feasts.  Even much of what Jesus said throughout the Gospels is referring to portions of the Tabernacle and the feasts.  As gentiles, we don't pick up on it.  But "completed" Messianic Jews have much more light on it all.  

Yom Kippur is the day when the Nation of Israel repents for rejecting their Messiah.  We don't understand that God deals with Israel as a nation.  We think only in terms of individuals.  This is where the misunderstanding arises.  God will restore the Nation of Israel.   All of the promises to her will be fulfilled as to her bounderies, her removal of the partial blindness, and her complete restoration. That is the fulfillment of the fall feasts, after the fullness of the gentiles has come in. 

Thank you, Qnts.  I do have some reservation about the last portion of your explanation  ( second post in this thread).  Probably I just don't understand.  The great white throne judgement came to mind with the reading of the Torah.  But I really don't know much about this portion.  But I want to copy and save your explaination.  Wish I had you for a Bible teacher.  

Blessings,

Willa

[Qnts2]

2 hours ago, mevosper said:

Q, I have to take issue with some things you've mentioned.

I'm not expert in sheep herding, so I have to pull my information from what I can find searching Google. This website (http://christiananswers.net/christmas/mythsaboutchristmas.html) says something quite contrary to what you are saying: "The normal practice was to keep the flocks in the fields from Spring to Autumn."

From another website:    "The sheep. Shepherds were “living out of doors and keeping watches in the night over their flocks.” (Luke 2:8) The bookDaily Life in the Time of Jesus notes that flocks lived in the open air from “the week before the Passover [late March]” through mid-November. It then adds: “They passed the winter under cover; and from this alone it may be seen that the traditional date for Christmas, in the winter, is unlikely to be right, since the Gospel says that the shepherds were in the fields.”

I will say that during my search, I did find arguments for and against Christ's birth in Sept vs Dec, with the flocks being one of the main points.

 

More about Tabernacle

Here is another interesting tidbit from the bible. This is not "date" related, but enhances the idea that God "tabernacled" with his people in the form of Jesus Christ: 

[Jhn 1:14 KJV] [14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The word dwelt is the Greek word for "to fix one's tabernacle, have one's tabernacle, abide (or live) in a tabernacle (or tent), tabernacle, to dwell". It is used this once in John, and then again in Rev 7:15, Rev 12:12, Rev 13:6, Rev 21:3. Revelation 21:3 I find especially interesting:

[Rev 21:3 KJV] [3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell[G4637] with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

I have heard the argument that the middle of winter would have been too cold for the shepherds to be out with the sheep, but the area around Bethlehem is a temperate climate, which means the average high during December was around the high 50's to the middle 60's, which is warm enough to have the sheep out grazing. In the hills around Bethlehem, there would be nothing to graze on during the summer because of the lack of rain. So, I find the arguments for sheep grazing in the summer and fall to be a mistake. 

From Smith's bible dictionary:

"As in the time of our Saviour (Luke 12: 54), the rains come chiefly from the S. or S.W. They commence at the end of October or beginning of November, and continue with greater or less constancy till the end of February or middle of March, and occasionally, though rarely, to the end of April. It is not a heavy continuous rain, so much as a succession of severe showers or storms with intervening periods of fine bright weather, permitting the grain crops to grow and ripen. And although the season is not divided by any entire cessation of rain for a lengthened interval, as some represent, yet there appears to be a diminution in the fall for a few weeks in December and January, after which it begins again, and continues during February and till the conclusion of the season."

Alfred Edersheim wrote a paper on the climate and rain around Bethlehem and included this quote from Smith's bible dictionary.