If life is in the blood, does God allow blood transfusions ?

[WilliamL]

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

On 3/12/2016 at 6:57 PM, WilliamL said:

...Jesus did not take up his blood again, he took up his soul again. That soul is not flesh and is not blood. And air-breathers don't descend to Hell, where there is no air/oxygen to breathe. Souls descend to Hell.

You cannot understand Mysteries of the non-physical worlds using definitions from the physical world.

 

...Without the "breath," the "psuchee" [Greek for soul] is reduced to a "sooma." [Greek for body] Just a lifeless "body." "Souls" don't ascend or descend; they CEASE TO BE until the Resurrection!

 

Retrobyter teaches "soul-sleep": that souls die until the Resurrection -- that souls stop being souls ("air-breathers"). The Bible teaches differently. The Bible teaches that souls can go to heaven or hell, and remain sentient when they are there. Hades/Hell is an entirely different place than the grave, as I would hope everyone realizes.

Acts 2:25 "For David says concerning Him [Jesus]: ... 27 You will not leave my soul in Hades [descent], Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. [Ps. 16:8ff.] ... 31 “This Jesus God has raised up [ascent], of which we are all witnesses. 32 ...being exalted to the right hand of God..."

Eph. 4:9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

Rev. 20:13 Death [i.e. the grave: the place of dead bodies] and Hades [the place of the non-saved souls] delivered up the dead who were in them.

So Retrobyter's unambiguous testimony that " Souls" don't ascend or descend..." is clearly false.

The death of souls is to be cut off from God in Sheol/Hell, not cease to exist. The death of bodies is to return to dust.

[Ezra]

10 hours ago, WilliamL said:

So Retrobyter's unambiguous testimony that " Souls" don't ascend or descend..." is clearly false.

Absolutely. The spirits and souls of believers are very much alive when they go to be with Christ. So are those who are outside of Christ in Hades. Bodies "sleep" since a body resting in a grave resembles sleep.

[SINNERSAVED]

1 hour ago, Ezra said:

Absolutely. The spirits and souls of believers are very much alive when they go to be with Christ. So are those who are outside of Christ in Hades. Bodies "sleep" since a body resting in a grave resembles sleep.

how do you know this, ? is that what scripture says ? I did not know anyone to know, about the after life, and once you die, and tell about it, , just curious  brother, ? can you show me in scripture, thank you ?

[Ezra]

2 minutes ago, SINNERSAVED said:

how do you know this, ? is that what scripture says ? I did not know anyone to know, about the after life, and once you die, and tell about it, , just curious  brother, ? can you show me in scripture, thank you ?

Please study Acts 7 and 8 for starters.

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Retrobyter teaches "soul-sleep": that souls die until the Resurrection -- that souls stop being souls ("air-breathers"). The Bible teaches differently. The Bible teaches that souls can go to heaven or hell, and remain sentient when they are there. Hades/Hell is an entirely different place than the grave, as I would hope everyone realizes.

Acts 2:25 "For David says concerning Him [Jesus]: ... 27 You will not leave my soul in Hades [descent], Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. [Ps. 16:8ff.] ... 31 “This Jesus God has raised up [ascent], of which we are all witnesses. 32 ...being exalted to the right hand of God..."

Eph. 4:9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

Rev. 20:13 Death [i.e. the grave: the place of dead bodies] and Hades [the place of the non-saved souls] delivered up the dead who were in them.

So Retrobyter's unambiguous testimony that " Souls" don't ascend or descend..." is clearly false.

The death of souls is to be cut off from God in Sheol/Hell, not cease to exist. The death of bodies is to return to dust.

Shalom, WilliamL

Who are you talking to? Are you in the habit of talking to yourself?

"Souls" don't "die." They cease to exist. It's hard to have an "air-breather" that no longer breathes air! It's not about "souls" or "spirits" "going to Heaven or Hell," anyway; our lives - the memories of who we are/were - is bound in the memory of God! HE brings us back to life! And, it is HE who will re-create us as bodies in the Resurrection! The old us - the bodies that die - can't just be made to come back to life. Past three days at the most, and so much corruption has taken place that we would be severely lacking if we came back just as He finds us in the graves. The Resurrection is truly an act (or many acts) of CREATION!

Now, obviously you're not familiar with either "Sh'owl" or "Hadees" to make such ridiculous and non-sequitur statements as "Hades/Hell is an entirely different place than the grave, as I would hope everyone realizes." You DON'T know what you're talking about! "Sh'owl" ("Sheol") means "asked" as in "What happened to Grandpa?" And, "Hadees" ("Hades") means "Unseen," as in the "Unknown" or "Out of sight out of mind." Both words ARE talking about the "grave" in the sense of the UNKNOWN, the INEVITABLE!

Kefa (Peter) said, ...

Acts 2:25-36
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. (Psalm 16:8-11a)
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection (anestaseoos) of Christ, that his soul (air-breather) was not left in hell (eis Hadeen, into the grave), neither his flesh did see corruption (diafthoran = decay).
32 This Jesus hath God raised up (anesteesen, RESURRECTED, not "ascended!"), whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord (ho Kurios) said unto my Lord (too Kurioo mou), Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. (Psalm 110:1)
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord (Master) and Christ (Messiah).
KJV

David (pronounced "Dah-VEED") was a prophet of God. As such, He was given the words of the Messiah prior to his death and wrote them in a song:

Psalm 16:8-11
8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul (nafshiy = my-air-breather) in hell (li-Sh'owl, to the grave); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption (shaachat = pit).
11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
KJV

Psalm 110:1
1 The LORD (YHWH) said unto my Lord (Adoniy), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
KJV

As far as Ephesians 4:9 is concerned, the key word is "gee" (pronounced "gay" and meaning "the ground"). Thus, the "he descended into the lower parts of the earth" comes from "katebee eis ta katoteera meree tees gees." It means "he went-down into the lower layers of the ground." It's not talking about the WHOLE PLANET; it's talking about the surface of the earth! The GROUND! THAT "earth!" The DIRT!

In verse 10, the comparison is to "ho anabas huperanoo pantoon toon ouranoon" meaning "that ascended far-above all the skies." He DID ascend to the New Jerusalem being built in space, and that city is "far above" the atmosphere, "all the SKIES."

Finally, Revelation 20:13, which is talking about the GWTJ and the final consignment of those who disobeyed God to the Lake of Fire and Sulfur or the Lake of Burning Sulfur, says, "Kai edooken hee thalassa tous nekrous tous en autee kai ho thanatos kai ho hadees edookan tous nekrous tous en autois." This means "And/Also delivered-up the sea the dead those in it and/also the death and the unseen delivered-up the dead those in them." "Death" is NOT the "grave!" Death is the CONDITION of inanimation! The "Unseen" is the grave!

All this is important because you absolutely MUST understand the importance of the RESURRECTION!!! We are NOT told that we "go to Heaven when we die" nor are we to anticipate "going to Heaven!" We are to anticipate the RESURRECTION! We absolutely are taught that we shall LIVE FOREVER AND EVER LITERALLY as new bodies that shall not die again or see decay again!

[SINNERSAVED]

okay , I am reading what is going on here, but if your soul goes to God immediately, and does not sleep, and or if it sleeps and not rises it dies , then if we did, and we are of the lord, Hid people,

 where does the verse  in scripture say , those who are dead  or sleep in Christ shall called up first, and then those who are alive next, so how does that fit in to what both sides are talking about ?

 

[WilliamL]

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. ...

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection (anestaseoos) of Christ, that his soul (air-breather) was not left in hell (eis Hadeen, into the grave), neither his flesh did see corruption (diafthoran = decay).

Note the distinction between soul and flesh. According to Retrobyter, the soul/air-breather dies immediately after the last breath, and ceases to exist. But Peter distinguishes between the soul in hell/Hades and the flesh that becomes corrupted in the grave. Unlike Retrobyter's definition of Hades to be the grave, both the Greek Hades and the Hebrew Sheol are described as being places of the sentient souls of the dead. More on that below.

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

As far as Ephesians 4:9 is concerned, the key word is "gee" (pronounced "gay" and meaning "the ground"). Thus, the "he descended into the lower parts of the earth" comes from "katebee eis ta katoteera meree tees gees." It means "he went-down into the lower layers of the ground."

No, Paul is using the traditional doctrine of Hades/Sheol as a deep underground abode of the souls of the dead, who are collected there.

Jesus also taught this very same thing. He told of the rich man after his death: "...being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."  Luke 16:23 Lazarus, Abraham, and the rich man are all described by Jesus as being sentient, able to converse with one another. All of their bodies are dead, yet their souls retain both existence and sentience.

Likewise in Isaiah 14, when Lucifer is said to be "brought down to Sheol" (14:15), 9 "all the chief ones of the earth speak and say to [him], 'Have you become as weak as we? Have you become like us? 10 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol..."

[Retrobyter]

20 hours ago, SINNERSAVED said:

okay , I am reading what is going on here, but if your soul goes to God immediately, and does not sleep, and or if it sleeps and not rises it dies , then if we did, and we are of the lord, Hid people,

 where does the verse  in scripture say , those who are dead  or sleep in Christ shall called up first, and then those who are alive next, so how does that fit in to what both sides are talking about ?

 

Shalom, SINNERSAVED.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

It's simple, really. We are not to sorrow as others who have no hope because we BELIEVE in the Resurrection; that is, we are assured that there SHALL be a Resurrection and we TRUST God to Resurrect us, if we die before Yeshua` returns! If we believe that Yeshua` died and was resurrected, those who are asleep in Yeshua` will be brought with Yeshua` when He returns, Resurrects those who are His, and brings them with Him!

So, the dead in the Messiah shall rise first! Then, we who are alive and are still living shall be caught up together with them into the clouds. That's as far into "heaven" as we go! We are transported to the Messiah (WHO HAS RETURNED) from wherever we were on the face of the earth, and we meet Him in the air! Then, we descend with Him to the earth, specifically at the Middle East to rescue His people, the children of Israel. And, SO shall we ever be with the Lord!

[SINNERSAVED]

22 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, SINNERSAVED.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

It's simple, really. We are not to sorrow as others who have no hope because we BELIEVE in the Resurrection; that is, we are assured that there SHALL be a Resurrection and we TRUST God to Resurrect us, if we die before Yeshua` returns! If we believe that Yeshua` died and was resurrected, those who are asleep in Yeshua` will be brought with Yeshua` when He returns, Resurrects those who are His, and brings them with Him!

So, the dead in the Messiah shall rise first! Then, we who are alive and are still living shall be caught up together with them into the clouds. That's as far into "heaven" as we go! We are transported to the Messiah (WHO HAS RETURNED) from wherever we were on the face of the earth, and we meet Him in the air! Then, we descend with Him to the earth, specifically at the Middle East to rescue His people, the children of Israel. And, SO shall we ever be with the Lord!

okay I get that, so if we die today , does our spirit go directly to him, or are we held waiting until he comes, or we are going to him as soon as we die and show up with him when he calls the ones that are alive, I am trying to see what the scripture is talking about in timing and what takes place, for I read that the non believer will all be raised and the end to face judgment so they are staying some where or hades or grave , this is what I am asking to get a clear and better understanding , thank you very much for the info, so can you give me what you believe is or happens as soon as you die a believer,  for many are saying we go to God immediately, but if we do , when the dead in Christ is raised first on the call , then we cannot be there yet, ?

 sorry but this is the best way to try to ask on this. thank you

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Note the distinction between soul and flesh. According to Retrobyter, the soul/air-breather dies immediately after the last breath, and ceases to exist. But Peter distinguishes between the soul in hell/Hades and the flesh that becomes corrupted in the grave. Unlike Retrobyter's definition of Hades to be the grave, both the Greek Hades and the Hebrew Sheol are described as being places of the sentient souls of the dead. More on that below.

No, Paul is using the traditional doctrine of Hades/Sheol as a deep underground abode of the souls of the dead, who are collected there.

Jesus also taught this very same thing. He told of the rich man after his death: "...being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."  Luke 16:23 Lazarus, Abraham, and the rich man are all described by Jesus as being sentient, able to converse with one another. All of their bodies are dead, yet their souls retain both existence and sentience.

Likewise in Isaiah 14, when Lucifer is said to be "brought down to Sheol" (14:15), 9 "all the chief ones of the earth speak and say to [him], 'Have you become as weak as we? Have you become like us? 10 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol..."

Shalom, WilliamL.

WHO are you talking to? If you have a question of me, ASK!

Peter is quoting a passage of Scripture ABOUT THE MESSIAH'S RESURRECTION! There ARE two factors involved in the Resurrection: The reconstitution of us as bodies that breathe ("souls"), and freeing the meat ("flesh") of our bodies from decay!

When you said, "both the Greek Hades and the Hebrew Sheol are described as being places of the sentient souls of the dead," that is true TODAY, but not necessarily when Peter spoke these things! "Hadees" is a GREEK word that was used to translate the Hebrew word "Sh'owl." But, the concept of "Hadees" being a place "deep underground" is from GREEK mythology! I suppose next you're going to tell me that we go to the "Elysian fields!" "Underground," yes. "DEEP Underground," no (unless you died in a mine shaft that collapsed)!

Can't you see that Revelation 20:12-13 puts "hee thalassa" (the sea) and "ho thanatos kai ho hadees" (the grave) on EQUAL FOOTING as the sources of these resurrected people?

Also, can't you see that you're spouting theological assumption when Isaiah 14:3-4 clearly says,

Isaiah 14:3-4
3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the Lord shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
KJV

And, again, you spout theological assumptions when you quote the words of YESHUA` HIMSELF in Luke 16! Y'know (or you SHOULD know), it's kinda hard to have "tongues," "fingers," have eyes for "seeing," or vocal folds for "speaking," or skin for "being tormented," etc. without a BODY! Yeshua` was speaking about the time of the General Resurrection, when all who are resurrected are brought before the Great White Throne for judgment!