The feet of iron and clay: Dan 2

[ARGOSY]

15 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

This was true of all of the kingdoms. They all intermixed, with other nationalities being put into positions of authority. Starting with Nebuchadnezzar himself. Alexander the Great even made his Greek leaders marry Persian women. So I don't see this as the explanation for --

 

None of the other nations are quite like western Europe which for many centuries has been a mutual co-operation of independent nations yet often at war with each other. This is a pretty unique situation in world politics made possible by some religious and financial manipulation of the Pope and the illuminati.keeping western Europe loosely affiliated.

Sure it does not fit in with your one narrow translation of "mortals" but it fits the original Aramaic which indicates the iron kingdom became a divided/disunited kingdom of various offspring.

(divided Rome will mingle the offspring of mankind)

[Marilyn C]

On ‎19‎/‎03‎/‎2016 at 0:06 PM, Spock said:

Daniel 2:43:

 

New International Version
And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.

New Living Translation
This mixture of iron and clay also shows that these kingdoms will try to strengthen themselves by forming alliances with each other through intermarriage. But they will not hold together, just as iron and clay do not mix.

English Standard Version
As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay.

New American Standard Bible 
"And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery.

King James Bible
And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Hi Spock,

Glad to see the clarity of scriptures there bro.

To all,

Where are the scriptures to back up all those thoughts (speculations?). We know that NO doctrine can be based on one scripture, let alone a symbol, but that is what I am seeing. Everyone is conjecturing as if God has left the interpretation of the `feet & clay` up to us.

Are we really serious about finding out what God says, or do we just want to air our opinions.

Marilyn.

[WilliamL]

So how many scriptures speak of men as clay in the hands of the Potter? E.g. --

Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Man was made of dust, not iron. Miry clay, potter's clay is made of dust.

But iron is in the blood, and "the soul of the flesh is in the blood" -- and haemophilia is a genetic disorder of the blood. It is extremely rare in women, but is passed down from genetic-carrier mothers to their sons. "Haemophilia has featured prominently in European royalty and thus is sometimes known as 'the royal disease'." (wikipedia) Where did that genetic disorder originate? Did the daughters of God marry human men? No, the sons of God married human women. But when they mingled with the seed of mortals, the resultant hybrids were unstable in their lineage, just like hybrid garden seeds will not run true to their nature in the seeds of their offspring.

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

So how many scriptures speak of men as clay in the hands of the Potter? E.g. --

Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Man was made of dust, not iron. Miry clay, potter's clay is made of dust.

But iron is in the blood, and "the soul of the flesh is in the blood" -- and haemophilia is a genetic disorder of the blood. It is extremely rare in women, but is passed down from genetic-carrier mothers to their sons. "Haemophilia has featured prominently in European royalty and thus is sometimes known as 'the royal disease'." (wikipedia) Where did that genetic disorder originate? Did the daughters of God marry human men? No, the sons of God married human women. But when they mingled with the seed of mortals, the resultant hybrids were unstable in their lineage, just like hybrid garden seeds will not run true to their nature in the seeds of their offspring.

Hi WilliamL,

Mankind - Rom. 9: 21,  CLAY.

Mankind - Dan. 2, GOLD, SILVER, BRONZE, IRON, CLAY.

Big difference there William. Plus one is talking about mankind & the other (Dan.) about empires.

Not a good basis for your view of the `feet & toes,` `iron & clay.`

Marilyn.

[ARGOSY]

5 hours ago, WilliamL said:

So how many scriptures speak of men as clay in the hands of the Potter? E.g. --

Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Man was made of dust, not iron. Miry clay, potter's clay is made of dust.

But iron is in the blood, and "the soul of the flesh is in the blood" -- and haemophilia is a genetic disorder of the blood. It is extremely rare in women, but is passed down from genetic-carrier mothers to their sons. "Haemophilia has featured prominently in European royalty and thus is sometimes known as 'the royal disease'." (wikipedia) Where did that genetic disorder originate? Did the daughters of God marry human men? No, the sons of God married human women. But when they mingled with the seed of mortals, the resultant hybrids were unstable in their lineage, just like hybrid garden seeds will not run true to their nature in the seeds of their offspring.

Yes that is one way of looking at those scriptures.  But the way I described also fits the scriptures and also fits your description of the intermarriages between various nations. The iron kingdom is a human kingdom just like Nebuchadnezzar's gold kingdom, and this iron kingdom mixes up the various nation's offspring creating a hybrid Europe where no single nation dominates for long. (Italy, France, England, Germany, Spain).  Haemophilia is a human disease that is inherited. Because of inbreeding this inherited disease became common in European royalty.  I'm not sure where you get the idea that haemophilia is limited to those of alien descent. 

[WilliamL]

You both still choose to ignore the significance of the "mingle with seed of mortal men" phrase, which is unique to this passage. It was put there for a reason, and would not be needed to carry the meaning that you both advocate. Verses 41-42 would be perfectly sufficient for what you say.

Most scholars accept that the iron, bronze, silver, and gold are the same four empires as those of Daniel 7. Those four kingdoms had their origin when "four spirits of heaven rush[ed] forth to the Great Sea." (Dan. 7:2) So those empires all had their origins by means of heavenly spirits. But it is one thing to say that these sarim/spiritual princes (Dan. 10:13, 20) are Powers that dominate human kings, and quite another to say that they "mingle with the seed" of them.

The word for cleave -- ''they will not cleave to one another" -- is the Aramaic form of the Hebrew word first used in Genesis:

Gen. 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

One type of union, the human-to-human, is successfully able to cleave; the other type, non-human to human, is not. This has been the testimony of ancient history for such unions. But that part of history is too uncomfortable for most people to accept, so they deny it, and try to expunge it from common knowledge.

[Reinitin]

On 3/17/2016 at 3:00 PM, mevosper said:

What are the beliefs here about the feet of iron and clay mentioned in Daniel 2:33? Is this a mix of the Roman and Israelite leaderships of the late BC to early AD years?

mevosper,

I'm not sure I have a popular answer but I will share with you what I see and why. I spent a lot of time studying all the different ideas about it. Because Jesus recommended it to us in matt 24 then said "let the reader understand". when i got to dan 2:37 36 37 Your Majesty, you are king of kings. The God of heaven has given you sovereignty, power, strength, and glory. 38 Wherever people live—or wild animals, or birds of the air—He has handed them over to you and made you ruler over them all. You are the head of gold.

I thought God has made our Lord Jesus Christ king of kings and made Him ruler over all creation and started his kingdom in a earthen vessel molded by the potters hands in this world ruled by principalities and powers so i started to study it through the whole bible looking for how God makes the kingdoms of this world the kingdoms of the Lord and how God tells us he will transfer the authority over the earth from man/satan to Christ... "And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the miry clay." (Daniel 2:41 RSV) We know at this time God is putting all authority under the foot stool of Christ then the kingdom of God will be established forever on this earth and the reign of Gods kingdom on this earth will begin at the second coming of Christ (the stone that crushes the ten toes). We know our bodies made of clay are the holy temples of God where the seed of His kingdom is planted.  We also know we have to be crushed like our Lord to be planted in His kingdom. We also can see the clay weakens the authorities of this world so they can't grasp full power over people and creation. "And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand for ever; just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be hereafter. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure." (Daniel 2:44-45 RSV) the immortal seed we know has mixed with man is Christ.

One more thing I see different is Daniel is speaking about 5 kingdoms not 4 He changed the order and changed miry clay to fired clay (purification of the saints). See How daniel changed to in the days of those kings? if you look before that he is talking about kingdoms not kings. look how he changed the order of the kingdoms and what he calls the clay, including the clay as a kingdom.

44 “In the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, and this kingdom will not be left to another people. It will crush all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, but will itself endure forever (fired clay puts on the new flesh). 45 You saw a stone break off from the mountain without a hand touching it,[k] and it crushed the iron, bronze, fired clay, silver, and gold. The great God has told the king what will happen in the future.[l] The dream is true, and its interpretation certain.”

I studied tons of scriptures old and new testament I'm not a scholar but to me it sure fits Gods plan for new creation and all the scriptures on His kingdom has come in all the books of the bible.

BTW im not saying I'm right and every one else is wrong It just seems so simple to understand.

[Reinitin]

When Islam started raising its ugly head a lot of new interpretations of daniel came out, then when we started gene manipulation more theory's came out. But Revelation unsealed daniel and revelation shows us Christ reining over all creation. 

[ARGOSY]

16 hours ago, WilliamL said:

You both still choose to ignore the significance of the "mingle with seed of mortal men" phrase, which is unique to this passage. It was put there for a reason, and would not be needed to carry the meaning that you both advocate. Verses 41-42 would be perfectly sufficient for what you say.

Most scholars accept that the iron, bronze, silver, and gold are the same four empires as those of Daniel 7. Those four kingdoms had their origin when "four spirits of heaven rush[ed] forth to the Great Sea." (Dan. 7:2) So those empires all had their origins by means of heavenly spirits. But it is one thing to say that these sarim/spiritual princes (Dan. 10:13, 20) are Powers that dominate human kings, and quite another to say that they "mingle with the seed" of them.

The word for cleave -- ''they will not cleave to one another" -- is the Aramaic form of the Hebrew word first used in Genesis:

Gen. 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

One type of union, the human-to-human, is successfully able to cleave; the other type, non-human to human, is not. This has been the testimony of ancient history for such unions. But that part of history is too uncomfortable for most people to accept, so they deny it, and try to expunge it from common knowledge.

 

I can see why you think you have a strong case. But the core logic is not convincing to me. 

1) You are emphasizing just one translation regarding the word "mortal", the actual Aramaic refers to offspring of mankind. The various offspring of people mingle their power in this kingdom, unlike the previous kingdoms. You do mention the mingling of the Greeks, yet that was one nation with another. Europe has this multiple mingling across royalty.

2) Many things don't cleave to each other. To conclude that it has to be some alien entity just because aliens and humans aren't particularly compatible is a big jump. Nations may battle to cleave to each other for many other reasons too, so your evidence/conclusion is a little sketchy.

3) Haemophilia can be introduced into any human lineage, its not entirely exclusive to non-human entities. Mere spontaneous mutation may cause this without any alien interference. Unless those mutations have always been preceded by a secret alien abduction which would ruin my case. (I'm kidding around... please be kind back )

At this stage we may have to agree to disagree. I am taking you seriously to the extent heavenly powers/princes are involved in human kingdoms as described in Daniel. It is entirely possible that there are some remnant dna  that represent the survival of non-human bloodlines in the human race (from the post-flood Nephilim).  I just do not believe the bible is clear that those elements exist or rule today or in the future end-times. If it was essential to our knowledge, the bible would have clearer support for your view.

 

 

[WilliamL]

5 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

I can see why you think you have a strong case. But the core logic is not convincing to me. 

Because no amount of information would convince, for you and many others. However, I am primarily addressing those whose minds might still be evaluating these things.

5 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

1) You are emphasizing just one translation regarding the word "mortal", the actual Aramaic refers to offspring of mankind. The various offspring of people mingle their power in this kingdom, unlike the previous kingdoms. You do mention the mingling of the Greeks, yet that was one nation with another. Europe has this multiple mingling across royalty.

It is known that the Kings of Persia intermarried with at least one Jew as well as with Medes. Solomon and David both had wives from different peoples: such a thing was common among ancient kings, who often had multiple wives from different allied nations. You have really provided no evidence that the Roman rulers were unique, you just have presumed it.

Regarding the Roman emperors before the time of the feet of clay and iron, when the empire was still purely iron,

"...by the 2nd Century, most of the Caesars were not even Romans - if one defines a "Roman" as being an Italian born in Rome or in the traditional Roman territories of Italy. In fact, most of the Emperors after the Julio-Claudians were provincial, or at best non-Roman Italian in origins." http://historum.com/ancient-history/19034-national-ethnic-origins-roman-emperors.html (This site lists emperors from Syrian, Carthaginian, Celtic, Gaulish, and other peoples.)

So why would this visionary prophecy of the Roman Empire wait until after the final division into the ten toes before it mentions the "mingle with the seed of mortal men" phrase? If such a mingling had in fact long been normal?