pre trib rapture is fake true or false

[Esther4:14]

14 hours ago, enoob57 said:

Then you have to resolve these statements of Scripture about God's Wrath:
The Wrath of God:
God abhors the violation of His Holy Character thus His Wrath...
Seen objectively poured out in specific- Rv 16:1,4-5
Christ substitutionary acceptance for judicial wrath for sin-  Ro 3:23-26; 5:8; 6:23; 2 Co 5:21
Christ satisfactory work unto God in His sacrifice- Ro 3:24-26; 5:9; Eph 1:7
God's revelatory wrath now and final judgement- Ro 1:18-32; 2:5; 9:22
God says He will choose the specific time- Isa 48:9; cf. Jn 3:36; 2 Pe 3:7-10
God remembers mercy in wrath- Hab 3:2; cf. Ps 103:8 ; till the finality of hell- Hab 3:2; cf. Ps 103:8
God does not use His wrath upon His 'IN Christ' - Jn 1:29; 1 Co 5:7; cf. Jn 3:36; Ro 3:24-26; 5:9-10
God speaks of an appointed time for His Wrath- Eze 7:19; Zep 1:14-15,18; Ro 2:5; Rv 6:16-17; 19:15; cf. 2 Th 1:6-10
Christ's coming to deliver from God's Wrath- 1 Th 1:10; 5:9; cf. Ro 5:9

I don't believe that not being raptured before the final week means that I will be under wrath.  If I were under wrath, I would be blinded and unable to see the implementation of the mark in order to refuse it.  To refuse the mark is to be called by His grace.  

Revelation says that the saints are called to persevere when the mark takes effect (Revelation 14:12).  

Revelation is not a hogpog that we make it, in particular, those who believe in pretrib rapture make prophecy a total hog pog of rapture and separate address of Israel and seals happening with earthquakes and Jesus comes to rapture the church then he comes back to reign the Jews for a thousand years because Ezekiel says this, and Isaiah says this, and Paul says this, and John says this and each are almost saying different things that are all going to happen at the same time, which I think makes people want to be raptured.  And pretribbers almost always explain prophecy in aggressive tones.  You don't have the same aggressive tone.  But, most of them get these aggressive tones and start telling people they are ridiculous and flinging insults.  

I bet if we took a survey, you would find more insults coming from pretibbers than posttribbers.  Maybe, it is because a lack of understanding of basic principles is making it difficult to progress and understand prophecy.  

Prophecy is a clean progression of events ending the fallen state of the world in a way other than a flood (Genesis 9:12).  

Pre tribulation is a somewhat arrogant philosophy, in my opinion as well, which may be another reason pritribbers have bad attitudes.  

In the Bible, Enoch and Elijah were raptured.  

Moses wasn't raptured.  The other prophets weren't raptured.  The apostles weren't raptured.  To me, this is reason enough to question rapture theory.  You know I have never climbed a mountain and spoken to God.  Moses did this, and he was still not allowed into the promised land because of a moment of anger.  It would see logical, learning the numerous lessons on humility in the New Testament, that I should be slow to consider myself worthy of this same privelage.  Yet, this group with bad attitudes thinks they are all automatically gonna be raptured.  If I did believe in rapture theory, it would make more sense to exhibit a humility that recognizes that even Holy men faced and experienced death.  

Maybe, if I saw people exhibiting more humility explaining the tenets of pretrib rapture theory, I would be more inclined to reconsider.  The way I see it.  They march around like spoiled brats with poor manners.  I can't see a rapture theory being possible solely based on the behavior of those who preach this opinion.  

Nevertheless, I don't believe I will experience wrath if I were to be alive during the final week.  His words will remain true in this time.  I will still be able to ask for anything in His name.  I won't experience the effects of the boils or any of the other things that happen to ones under wrath.  I think what I will experience during this time will be not so much different than the early church experienced.  

"When the LORD takes pleasure in anyone's way, he causes their enemies to make peace with them." (Proverbs 16:7).  

So, I appreciate your recognition of the absence of wrath, but I don't believe the church will be under wrath as someone who does not believe in a pretribulation rapture.  
 

[Omegaman 3.0]

Esther4:14, I do ot disagree that there are attitude problems, but pre-tribbers do not have a monopoly on that. I would suggest, that we keep to the scriptural/logical/egegtical issues and not get distracted with personality flaws, but rather encourage one another to improve in that respect.

[Esther4:14]

27 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Esther4:14, I do ot disagree that there are attitude problems, but pre-tribbers do not have a monopoly on that. I would suggest, that we keep to the scriptural/logical/egegtical issues and not get distracted with personality flaws, but rather encourage one another to improve in that respect.

Yes, I believe that a logical scriptural issue was the basis of my argument.  

[WilliamL]

On 4/6/2016 at 9:18 PM, Ezra said:

On 4/3/2016 at 7:42 AM, WilliamL said:

The Rapture takes place at the Second Coming, as the same passage from 2 Thes 2 makes clear:

2 Thes. 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ AND our gathering together to Him,

This passage (2 Thess 2:1-12) is frequently misunderstood because of the way Paul begins.  What Paul is telling the Thessalonians (and all of us today) is DO NOT CONNECT THE DAY OF THE LORD TO THE RAPTURE.

Which is you saying exactly the opposite of what Paul says.

"Our gathering together to Him" IS the Rapture. Which Rapture takes place at "the Day of Christ"/the Lord:

2 Thes 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in [apo: lit. away from] mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is come.

You come to the verse with the a preconception which you try to impose on the verse. SS and LD and I read it in its straightforward meaning, without putting anything on it that is not there: "our gathering" to Christ, the Rapture, takes place "at the Coming/Parousia/Presence of our Lord Jesus Christ" at "the Day of Christ."

[enoob57]

These texts are considered catching away text in the pre-trib view...
note there is absolutely no judgment in these verses contextually!
Jn 14:3; Rv 3:10; cf. 1 Co 15:51-52; Php 3:2-21

Now bring these verses into view and note there is judgment contextually in them
Mt 13:34-50; 24:29-44; Rv 19:11-21

We are required by God to rightly divide... then it is with reason to separate these
events from one another leaving and imminent catching away before judgment in
the second coming spoken of with judgment.    Love, Steven

[Last Daze]

3 hours ago, enoob57 said:

These texts are considered catching away text in the pre-trib view...
note there is absolutely no judgment in these verses contextually!
Jn 14:3; Rv 3:10; cf. 1 Co 15:51-52; Php 3:2-21

Now bring these verses into view and note there is judgment contextually in them
Mt 13:34-50; 24:29-44; Rv 19:11-21

We are required by God to rightly divide... then it is with reason to separate these
events from one another leaving and imminent catching away before judgment in
the second coming spoken of with judgment.    Love, Steven

Please list one or more scriptures that corroborate the last trumpet, the trumpet of God.  It should be no problem if things have been "rightly divided" as is required by God, right?

• Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.  1 Corinthians 15:51-52

This last trumpet, which Paul also refers to as the trumpet of God, is the explicitly stated timing of the resurrection / rapture.  Do you think Paul just made this trumpet up?  If not, then what is it a reference to?  Just scripture, please.  No tap dancing.

There's no need for endless conjecture about the timing of the rapture.  Find out when the last trumpet, the trumpet of God, sounds and there you have it, if you really want to know.

[SINNERSAVED]

16 hours ago, enoob57 said:

The catching away and second coming has a two part response clearly distinguished in point and case:
http://christianity.about.com/od/endtimestopicalstudy/f/secondcomingof.htm

this is another pre trib rapture view, , that's what I see? in this link,

and so we have here, the deniel of going through a troubled time, for my God will not allow me to go through this, , this is what you are saying, and so I see it as, the God in the bible has told us clearly , and in scripture, and it all backs it self up with out, bending , twisting, or trying to make it be what it is not,

 here ,is the real problem I see with this view and what I am trying to say that opposes this view,

say for a example, it does not happen, no rapture, and then the world goes into anarcy  , and a system  or power dominates the people to place order into the nation, how will you be able to handle what you did not expect to happen,  when it does not happen ? and you are faced with now , having to deal , with a complete take over, and you are told , you will follow as ordered, or you will be killed,

 what does that do to the people that followed your idea, and then they have to face the same, , they will hate God, even more, then any one else, for they will think that God has lied to them and let them down,

 so it is a salvation issue even if you refuse to see that, and it is a movement of the devil so that you are not prepared and turn on God, as evil, why do we not be ready and prepare our selves, ? and why are not the churches warning us ? to prepare ? if you do not see it , then there is no more I can try to show you ,?

 its not about views and who is right and who is wrong, I am not about that, I am saying, we are to be responsible and be right with God and take His advise, and His words of what He said, for He said you will have tribulation and they will also kill you for His name sake,

 and so if a storm is coming, why would you not prepare , ?

'here is a scripture that will fit here for all of us to learn , a wise man builds his house on the solid rock, and continues to stand in the storm, but a foolish man builds his house on shifting sand, and when the storm comes, it is washed away , and that man suffers major lost,?

 I would think if we do not warn people , then we are not understanding scripture,

 thank you ........................

[Paradigm]

1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 

 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

A few questions to consider:

• What are the "times and seasons" mentioned in the above passage and what is the significance of mentioning this?
• What is the Hebraic background for the term "last trumpet" and "great trumpet?"
• What does the phrase "hidden day" refer to and why?

[enoob57]

3 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Please list one or more scriptures that corroborate the last trumpet, the trumpet of God.  It should be no problem if things have been "rightly divided" as is required by God, right?

• Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.  1 Corinthians 15:51-52

This last trumpet, which Paul also refers to as the trumpet of God, is the explicitly stated timing of the resurrection / rapture.  Do you think Paul just made this trumpet up?  If not, then what is it a reference to?  Just scripture, please.  No tap dancing.

There's no need for endless conjecture about the timing of the rapture.  Find out when the last trumpet, the trumpet of God, sounds and there you have it, if you really want to know.

This is a poor hermeneutical approach to Scripture just because it is a last trumpet there are many last trumpets ... a trumpet is a common use to announce
events >and< to make them one and the same event ... well you should see the error of thought in this!

3 hours ago, SINNERSAVED said:

this is another pre trib rapture view, , that's what I see? in this link,

and so we have here, the deniel of going through a troubled time, for my God will not allow me to go through this, , this is what you are saying, and so I see it as, the God in the bible has told us clearly , and in scripture, and it all backs it self up with out, bending , twisting, or trying to make it be what it is not,

 here ,is the real problem I see with this view and what I am trying to say that opposes this view,

say for a example, it does not happen, no rapture, and then the world goes into anarcy  , and a system  or power dominates the people to place order into the nation, how will you be able to handle what you did not expect to happen,  when it does not happen ? and you are faced with now , having to deal , with a complete take over, and you are told , you will follow as ordered, or you will be killed,

 what does that do to the people that followed your idea, and then they have to face the same, , they will hate God, even more, then any one else, for they will think that God has lied to them and let them down,

 so it is a salvation issue even if you refuse to see that, and it is a movement of the devil so that you are not prepared and turn on God, as evil, why do we not be ready and prepare our selves, ? and why are not the churches warning us ? to prepare ? if you do not see it , then there is no more I can try to show you ,?

 its not about views and who is right and who is wrong, I am not about that, I am saying, we are to be responsible and be right with God and take His advise, and His words of what He said, for He said you will have tribulation and they will also kill you for His name sake,

 and so if a storm is coming, why would you not prepare , ?

'here is a scripture that will fit here for all of us to learn , a wise man builds his house on the solid rock, and continues to stand in the storm, but a foolish man builds his house on shifting sand, and when the storm comes, it is washed away , and that man suffers major lost,?

 I would think if we do not warn people , then we are not understanding scripture,

 thank you ........................

Because it is wrath from God upon the world of unbelievers... which God has not appointed me to endure such for
Christ bore that in Himself in the finished work upon the cross!  Love, Steven

[Ezra]

46 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

This is a poor hermeneutical approach to Scripture just because it is a last trumpet there are many last trumpets ... a trumpet is a common use to announce
events >and< to make them one and the same event ... well you should see the error of thought in this!

Quite right, enoob57. The set of trumpets announcing God's wrath has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the last trumpet announcing the departure of the saints from the earth.  This erroneous assumption has led to people mixing wrath with salvation, and getting everything confused.