pre trib rapture is fake true or false

[enoob57]

1 Co 15:51
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
KJV
One of the events of catching away of saints concerned me in that God says
Heb 9:27-28
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that
look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
KJV
but then I realized this reality here
Ro 6:7-11
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
KJV
We according to the work of Christ are already made dead and our living is one of quickening
Spirit awaiting our new bodies-> which the catching away seems to indicate when that body given...

101 ANSWERS TO THE MOST ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT THE END TIMES Mark Hitchcock

(from 101 Answers to the Most Asked Questions About the End Times, by Mark Hitchcock,
Copyright © 2001 by Multnomah Publishers, Inc. All rights reserved. Used by permission.)

[snip]

Why is the Rapture called a mystery?

In 1Co 15:51, the apostle Paul refers to the Rapture as a mystery. When we think of a

mystery, we most often think of something that is difficult to understand or solve. While

so many things about the end times seem mysterious, that’s not the Bible’s meaning of the

word. In the New Testament, a mystery is a truth that is being revealed by God for the

first time.

The mystery of the Rapture is that some people will go to heaven and receive new,

glorified bodies without ever dying. They will do an end run around the grave: “Behold, I

tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we wilL all he changed” (1Co 15:51). This

was a totally new truth that had never been disclosed by God until He inspired Paul to

record it in his first letter to the Corinthians.

If you read your Bible from Gen 1 to 1Corinthians 14, you would correctly conclude that

the only way to get to heaven and obtain your glorified body would be to die. But in 1Cor

15, all that changes. There the Lord unveils the glorious truth that a whole generation of

believers will be transformed without feeling the sting of physical death.

May we be that generation! [snip]

Love, Steven 

 

[SINNERSAVED]

you may say it is a mystery , according to the bible, as paul states, but we are to understand that this mystery will come  after the tribulation of those days, from what we get as a time, line, now, ,it also says that it will come as a thief to those not watching , and not ready , and this places , the parable, of the ten virgins, right here , the five wise and the five foolish, it is for us to take notes, and to have our lamps filled with oil, and be watching , and be ready ,

thank you

[Paradigm]

 

I'm not particularly interested in the hide-and-seek approach either.  It comes across to me as a "posturing" technique.  You asked questions.  We answered them.  Be forthcoming with your views so we can examine them and ask you questions.  It's a discussion forum.

I can't speak for everyone but I'm more than willing to adjust my views given an adequate scriptural basis for doing so, and have.  I don't really need to be motivated further for answers.  Its why I'm here to engage in reasoned, scriptural discussions.

I understand that some of my practices may seem alien to many and may not know quite how to take my approaches at times. I try to model myself more and more after the patterns that I find in scripture. Not only from scripture, but from experience I have found certain approaches to be more fruitful than others.

Proverbs 29:11 A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards.

In addition to teaching Bible studies, I also teach art. Many times a student will say something like "What's wrong with my drawing?" I rarely tell them. I don't just withhold information because I'm playing "hide and seek" with them, but because I have found it is more effective. I want to train them how to ask the right questions. 

Usually I will begin by asking them a question or two. After that, I rarely have to tell them what is wrong. Usually they say "Oh, I see it now!"

Not only were they part of the process of arriving at the answer. They will better remember and when they run up against a similar problem they can begin to ask themselves these kinds of questions and likely determine the answer.

Many times the Messiah answered a question with a question. That was a very common way of learning/teaching in the Hebrew culture. 

We have to be mindful also that typically Christians start at the end of the book to better understand the end. The 1st Century believers interpreted the gospels, epistles, etc through the backdrop of the Tanakh. Torah, Prophets and Writings. 

This was the method used by Y'shua, Paul and others. And starting with Moses and going through all of the Prophets and Psalms... If you believed Moses, you would believe me for he wrote of me. Behold I come in the volume of the book, etc.

We are told that the "End has been declared from the beginning." Hence, the end is embedded in the beginning and the beginning in the end. That which has been will be again and there is nothing new under the sun.

To the Thessalonians, Paul said that he didn't have any need to write unto them regarding the "times and seasons." Yet Y'shua said this:

Matthew 16:3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

We have to try to remove the 21st Century filters that we have and begin to see through the prism that the believers of the 1st Century did. 

Most Christians read something about a last trump and naturally assume that the last trump must be the last trump. Most assume that it is the 7th trumpet of Revelation. Again, we have to pause and ask some questions. What kinds of trumpets were there? There were ones made from certain animal horns, the shofar. There were also silver trumpets that we are told about in the Torah. 

Trumpets were blown at certain times and seasons. 

Here is a passage from scripture that discusses some of the reasons, times and ways that the trumpets were blown.

Numbers 10

1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps.

3 And when they shall blow with them, all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

4 And if they blow but with one trumpet, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee.

5 When ye blow an alarm, then the camps that lie on the east parts shall go forward.

6 When ye blow an alarm the second time, then the camps that lie on the south side shall take their journey: they shall blow an alarm for their journeys.

7 But when the congregation is to be gathered together, ye shall blow, but ye shall not sound an alarm.

8 And the sons of Aaron, the priests, shall blow with the trumpets; and they shall be to you for an ordinance for ever throughout your generations.

9 And if ye go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresseth you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before the Lord your God, and ye shall be saved from your enemies.

10 Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months, ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; that they may be to you for a memorial before your God: I am the Lord your God.

So trumpets were blown for a host of reasons including the coronation of a king. They were blown in a war situation. They were blown to announce the new moon, festivals, etc. 

We have to learn to understand the language of the trumpet. 

1 Corinthians 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

Exodus 19:16

And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

Exodus 19:19

And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

 

Isaiah 58:1

Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

 

Revelation 1:10

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

 

Revelation 4:1

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

 

I'll pause for now and maybe go into more detail later. 

[WilliamL]

 

Neither of these verses mention this event as being "the last/eschatos trumpet." As weird as it may sound to you, these events may well come after the last/eschatos trumpet, if that one is in reference to eschatological, rather than chronological, events.

 

I'm open to other scripturally based understandings.

Headings don't seem to be coming through: the first post was mine, the second from Last Daze.

If you consider the NT as a whole, and especially Paul's writings, it can all be summed up in two basic parallel themes:

Law of Moses   Gospel of Christ

Israel    Church

flesh    spirit

works by hands    grace by faith

Old Jerusalem below   New Jerusalem above

earthly Mount Sinai    heavenly Mount Zion

Old Covenant    New Covenant

Aaronic Priesthood    Melchizedek Priesthood

Yehovah's marriage to Israel   Yeshua's marriage to the Church

"in time past"/former days    "these last days"/latter days  [Heb. 1:1-2]

"the first/protos man Adam"    "the last/eschatos Adam"  [1 Cor. 14:45]

the first trumpet/shofar for the gathering of God's people blown from Mount Sinai     "the last/eschatos trumpet"/shofar for the gathering of Christ's people blown from Mount Zion

The phrase "the last/eschatos trumpet" from 1 Cor. 15:52 comes just seven verses after the first/protos and last/eschatos Adam verse, showing that Paul is continuing the theme. This "first/last trump" theme is explicitly explained in the Rapture passage of Hebrews 12:18-28, which nobody but me ever quotes on this site.

So in sum, the last trumpet has nothing to do with the angel-blown seven trumpets of Revelation, or the war-trumpets that you quoted in the Zechariah and Isaiah passages. The last/eschatos trumpet specifically relates to the gathering of the Church to heavenly Mount Zion, just as the first/former/protos trumpet relates to the gathering of Israel to Mount Sinai:

Heb. 12:18 For you have not come to the mountain [Sinai] that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words...

:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Exodus 24:8 And Moses took the blood, sprinkled it on the people, and said, “This is the blood of the covenant which the LORD has made with you according to all these words.”  

[Montana Marv]

InChrist

Your quote: Further I dont see how you could be in the fathers house in your many rooms ahead of those souls, when John gives us no vision of this in Revelation.

Those waiting under the altar ask a question "When will you avenge our blood?"

We of the Bride never ask that question.  What was Stephen's response when being stoned to death. "Lord, do not hold this sin against them"

Two opposing statements.  Now I will ask you a question.  Which of the two will you call out when being killed.  For this will show the one who really is of the Body of Christ his Bride.

My blood and all that I am was taken care of at the Cross.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Sister]

 

Christians are sealed with the Holy Spirit when they are saved. And the Tribulation is for the unbelieving and the ungodly.

Ezra, Not all saints in the end times have been given the holy spirit. 

Jesus warned us that after his departure wolves will come into the flock preaching a different Christ, and a different gospel.  In the last days, many false prophets will come and we will see the fruits of the enemy grown to the full causing so many divisions in the Christian land.  Those false prophets came already causing divisions, they are men who started churches and new doctrines in the Christian land.  It appears the same from the outside, but when you look real close into it, they have twisted the scriptures to mean something else.

We are in those times now, where the wheat and the tares are growing together.  We need the holy spirit to get through all this and with so much confusion and division around, with the way people speak to each other and reject truth (Christians mind you),  there is no abundance of the holy spirit being poured out in the end times as much as you would all like to believe.  One has to actually walk the talk, be humble, and put Christ first in our hearts.  Loving the Lord and placing him at no. 1 is equivalent to putting the truth first place in our hearts, for he is truth.

John 14:6   Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So those Christians who are already dead, had their measure of the holy spirit, and will be in the first resurrection, but the last generation, at the end of it all when wickedness has grown to the full, I doubt you could say every Christian has the holy spirit in the last days, during the most evil of times, ....and those who don't have the spirit of truth will fall, because their foundation is made with tempered mortar. 

The tribulation is persecution of the saints from the "God of this world".  He hates them because he is full of wrath with hatred for God and his children, those who keep the commandments of God and the Lamb.  He has been given "permission" to put them out of the way, and God is going to try each and every one of us and give us one last chance to see if we can walk our talk when persecution arises to separate the true believers from the tares.  This is the sifting also.

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

 

So the Lord is going to raise His elect to Him and then bring them back to earth at the Second Coming?  Straight forward logic tells us this doesn't make sense.  And God is the father of logic.

I see no straight forward logic, in your claim that "Straight forward logic tells us this doesn't make sense." 

Exactly, what is it in the idea, that the Lord will come on or in the clouds, gather His church to Himself there, and then continue on to His destination with them, that is a alogical? I do not get what it is, that you appear to be saying! To cut you some slack, I have heard others say this also, but I have never understood their point either.

 

[MorningGlory]

 

I see no straight forward logic, in your claim that "Straight forward logic tells us this doesn't make sense." 

Exactly, what is it in the idea, that the Lord will come on or in the clouds, gather His church to Himself there, and then continue on to His destination with them, that is a alogical? I do not get what it is, that you appear to be saying! To cut you some slack, I have heard others say this also, but I have never understood their point either.

 

Mmmm....I thought that meant that the Lord would descend and take us to Heaven then turn around and bring us back. I am trying to prop the door of my mind open so I can learn something if I just haven't heard it yet. What did I miss?  And what is wrong with the site, O Man?  The quotes just aren't working right.

[Omegaman 3.0]

 

Mmmm....I thought that meant that the Lord would descend and take us to Heaven then turn around and bring us back. I am trying to prop the door of my mind open so I can learn something if I just haven't heard it yet. What did I miss?  And what is wrong with the site, O Man?  The quotes just aren't working right.

Yes, chat is acting funny also, I think these are side effect of a recent "upgrade" which was probably to fix a security hole.

Regarding the Lord's return thing, some see it as obvious, that the Lord comes, and gathers believers, and does a u-turn to heaven. Then the 7 years. They often see in as making no sense, that the Lord would come halfway, catch up beleivers, and then bring them to earth.

I have never understood, why one way makes sense, and the other doesn't. Does it only make sense if one party turns around, but not so it the other party does? That is what I never understood. Either way, someone does a u-turn. The main functional difference there is do we insert 7 years there, properly or not? Even with 7 years inserted, Jesus still comes to earth with the saints - same thing, one has a delay, the other does not, so my question was, why is one sensible, and the other non-sense?

 12On the next day the large crowd who had come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, 13took the branches of the palm trees and went out to meet Him, and began to shout, “Hosanna! BLESSED ISHE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD, even the King of Israel.”

Same sort of language structure there, the masses go to meet Jesus, then (presumably) He continues on to His destination and they return with Him.

From a sort of practical stand point, imagine Jesus in the clouds over Jerusalem, and the Rapture happens, in either scenario. Now, imagine the Christian in Melborne Australia, going "up" to meet Jesus. At some point, seems like he/she will have to turn and follow the curvature of the earth, to meet the Lord, unless . . . His coming is like the lightning, shining from the east, even to the west, and He does and orbit, in a lash, in the blink of an eye, and gathers people from the four corners of the earth and then continues to Jerusalem (or to heaven, which ever way it works out).

Maybe, they just sort of get transported, without physical movement, I have no idea, but I fine it a little interesting to actually picture how it will happen.

For me, the Rapture  happens and His appearacne, His revelation, at the end of the tribulation, so for Him to gather the people and continue on to earth, makes perfect sense, and I fail to see how "Straight forward logic tells us this doesn't make sense."

Understand what I am asking?

[MorningGlory]

 

Yes, chat is acting funny also, I think these are side effect of a recent "upgrade" which was probably to fix a security hole.

Regarding the Lord's return thing, some see it as obvious, that the Lord comes, and gathers believers, and does a u-turn to heaven. Then the 7 years. They often see in as making no sense, that the Lord would come halfway, catch up beleivers, and then bring them to earth.

I have never understood, why one way makes sense, and the other doesn't. Does it only make sense if one party turns around, but not so it the other party does? That is what I never understood. Either way, someone does a u-turn. The main functional difference there is do we insert 7 years there, properly or not? Even with 7 years inserted, Jesus still comes to earth with the saints - same thing, one has a delay, the other does not, so my question was, why is one sensible, and the other non-sense?

 12On the next day the large crowd who had come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, 13took the branches of the palm trees and went out to meet Him, and began to shout, “Hosanna! BLESSED ISHE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD, even the King of Israel.”

Same sort of language structure there, the masses go to meet Jesus, then (presumably) He continues on to His destination and they return with Him.

From a sort of practical stand point, imagine Jesus in the clouds over Jerusalem, and the Rapture happens, in either scenario. Now, imagine the Christian in Melborne Australia, going "up" to meet Jesus. At some point, seems like he/she will have to turn and follow the curvature of the earth, to meet the Lord, unless . . . His coming is like the lightning, shining from the east, even to the west, and He does and orbit, in a lash, in the blink of an eye, and gathers people from the four corners of the earth and then continues to Jerusalem (or to heaven, which ever way it works out).

Maybe, they just sort of get transported, without physical movement, I have no idea, but I fine it a little interesting to actually picture how it will happen.

For me, the Rapture  happens and His appearacne, His revelation, at the end of the tribulation, so for Him to gather the people and continue on to earth, makes perfect sense, and I fail to see how "Straight forward logic tells us this doesn't make sense."

Understand what I am asking?

Yes.  I was assuming that the Lord snatched us up and then put us down.  He could do that; He can do anything.  It just didn't seem practical but then what's practical to a woman in Houston is probably not the same as what Jesus would do.  Maybe there IS  a period of time in there.  Oh, I've got to sit down and plot this out in my head because now I have a bunch of pieces that don't fit and to my mathematical mind that's just not acceptable.  It will make me nuts until I figure it out.