pre trib rapture is fake true or false

[Sister]

5 hours ago, 7Dove77 said:

TrevorL,

God  is going to place the believers ( His saints),  in the "New Holy City"..New Jerusalem"

Rev,21;2-3)-And I John,saw the (Holy City),,NEW JERUSALEM,,coming down from God out of heaven,prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying,Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men,and he will dwell with them,and they shall be his people,and God himself shall be with them,and be their God.

............Note-This eventis also refered to as "A Nation Born in One day ", at this time,God will formalize his new covenant with National Israel,which includes the Jews and the other ( 11 Tribes)

 

Remember..-Jesus is returning to us,to the  "Mount of olives " with His multitude of believers,before us.

 

I Thess,4 & matt 24)-Christ is bringing back with him believers,who have passed on before us.A cloud of people as paul would describe,in these verses.Do not let thisbe a mystery to you,we are not flying away,

Blessings to you Trevor,With Gods Grace,This is my understanding to your question,from Gods word,,,,

 

 

7Dove77

Another good observation, yet can I just say one thing.  When the saints take part in the first resurrection, they inherit everything that belongs to the Father, and that is the whole of heaven, the whole of the earth, the universe...everything the Father created all will belong to the saints in that resurrection.  This is the real inheritance, the whole Kingdom of God.  The only difference is, that for a thousand years, there is a job to do down here, and this is where God will put his saints, to reign with Christ.  Does not mean that they can't zip up to heaven and back, like the angels are currently doing.  They wont be bound here, but needed here to do a job and very busy.

[TrevorL]

 

Greetings 7Dove77,

 

I am not sure if I fully understand your earlier comments, and also have difficulty with your next Post. But I would like to consider the following as we could have some agreement here:

6 hours ago, 7Dove77 said:

I Thess,4 & matt 24)-Christ is bringing back with him believers,who have passed on before us.A cloud of people as paul would describe,in these verses.Do not let thisbe a mystery to you,we are not flying away

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 (KJV): 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (or precede) them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

Note that it speaks of those who have died as “them that sleep in Jesus” v14, and “them which are asleep” v15. V16 then describes the return of Jesus and he first raises the dead, that is, figuratively awakening them from their sleep. Jesus and these resurrected faithful will then be united with the faithful who are alive at the return of Jesus.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[Kan]

On 3/28/2016 at 0:57 AM, WilliamL said:

This misunderstanding has been answered too many times in this forum to remember, but here goes again. Rapture is merely an Old Latin and Old French translation of the Greek verb root harpazo used in 1 Thes. 4:17 and elsewhere, translated in the English as "caught up." If "the rapture is false," as you say, then so is 1 Thes. 4:17. Unless you think that other translations of the Bible than English ones are false.

This is sort of an ambiguous question, because some pre-tribbers here say that the rapture/catching up of the Church is different than the Second Coming. But they are not two different, or at least disconnected, things.

The Second Coming begins with the Rapture, at which time the Lord personally enters into history again on earth. His involvement with earth thenceforth will be continuous throughout the period of his Wrath, which Wrath will conclude when he bodily descends to the Mount of Olives to fight for Israel at Jerusalem and soon after at Armageddon.

I have to assume that I can't tell which texts apply to which event, and to also believe there are several events lined up, which could all be using various texts. At present I am counting on the one culminating event.

I don't believe there is any basis to assume there are several interventions by Christ in behalf of the saints, any more than there are several levels of hell, and several stages in the afterlife. However I could be wrong as usual.

From what I have read and interpreted, I don't see any texts in the Bible which can specifically point to the rap, and which cannot be applied safely and grammatically to the second advent of Christ.

It is possible that the ambiguity does not lie in my direct question, but in the poly doctrines of the rapturists?

[Zemke]

45 minutes ago, Kan said:

I have to assume that I can't tell which texts apply to which event, and to also believe there are several events lined up, which could all be using various texts. At present I am counting on the one culminating event.

I don't believe there is any basis to assume there are several interventions by Christ in behalf of the saints, any more than there are several levels of hell, and several stages in the afterlife. However I could be wrong as usual.

From what I have read and interpreted, I don't see any texts in the Bible which can specifically point to the rap, and which cannot be applied safely and grammatically to the second advent of Christ.

It is possible that the ambiguity does not lie in my direct question, but in the poly doctrines of the rapturists?

One large reason the pre trib doctrine is so locked into the minds of those who hold to it is the theology that embarks on placing events in dispensational time lines. It helps to a degree in placing prophetic literature in audience and time and it isn't that doing that is wrong but like all other theologies, attached to human effort, it becomes systematic to the point of missing a continuing picture. The reason we argue is because we are all blinded a bit by our systematic approaches.

There is much we can learn of the rescue God has had, does have and will have of His people and the resurrection. It's looking at time line that many times helps us miss other understandings of the text. "Is, was and is to come" is a theme of revelation, concurrency, that seems to always be overlooked.  

The earlier pre trib writers of despensationalism all said that the timing of the rapture was not clearly stated in scripture, but because of the theological system the only place that could make sense is pre seven years of tribulation. Today I find it amazing that those of us who hold to pre tribulationism do so being more adamant than those one hundred years ago with no more scriptural revelation than they had. Despensational theology hasn't changed but the holders to it claim what their predecesors never did.  An honest reading of the text would lead us to the very position many simply try to establish and that is, the timing of the rapture being pre-seven years of tribulation is not clearly biblical. One must first learn a despensational way of reading scripture before even seeing the possibilities of that placement. 

So the argument goes on and on.  

[Last Daze]

5 hours ago, Ezra said:

 The Rapture is the consummation of the salvation of the saints.  We need to be careful not to snatch passages out of their contexts and apply them randomly.

And since the saints clearly go through the great tribulation, the rapture happens afterward, or post-tribulation.  I think you're beginning to see it. 

Yes, we need to be careful.

[WilliamL]

9 hours ago, TrevorL said:

I can agree that the word "up" could be added to harmonise with the context, but if the whole of this is figurative language then the believers may not be literally elevated above the earth.

9 hours ago, TrevorL said:

The concept of a "new heaven and earth" is also tied in with the figurative language of "clouds" and "air".

Which concepts place you among those who spiritualize-away passages that don't suit their doctrines.

9 hours ago, TrevorL said:

But Jesus was taken up and has remained in heaven for 2000 years. He is soon to return to reign on earth for 1000 years. Why take the believers back to heaven?

Because "God did not appoint us [the elect of His Church] to wrath." 1 Thes. 5:9

During the period of "the great day of His Wrath" (Rev. 6:17), which includes all of the Trumpets and Bowls judgments, this earth will become a very undesirable (to say the least) place to be. "Those who are ready" at his return/coming -- the wise virgins of Matt. 25:10 -- will go in with the Bridegroom to the heavenly wedding. These are the "great multitude" of Rev. 7 and 19 seen standing before the heavenly throne, and being elected to serve in the heavenly naos/sanctuary, and being called the Lamb's "wife" in Rev. 19.

Those who are not ready, such as those who deny the catching up to heaven, and so are not watching and seeking for it, will remain on earth during the Wrath.

1 Thes. 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. ... 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. ... 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. ... 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath [= the Day of the Lord], but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Ezra]

9 hours ago, Sister said:

Excellent observation Trevor.

How can it be an "excellent observation" when it denies the truth that the saints are indeed in Heaven at this very moment?  

[7Dove77]

Ezra-If the (Saints) are in heaven as we speak,

What group of Saints are these?

(With that being said),

Are you in-agreement,that their are (Saints),here on earth,also?

Blessings with Gods Grace,7Dove77

 

[Ezra]

5 hours ago, 7Dove77 said:

Ezra-If the (Saints) are in heaven as we speak,

What group of Saints are these?

(With that being said),

Are you in-agreement,that their are (Saints),here on earth,also?

Blessings with Gods Grace,7Dove77

Of course there are presently saints on earth as well as saints in Heaven. But one poster was suggesting that there are no saints in Heaven. Until the resurrection of Christ, the saints were in Abraham's Bosom in Sheol-Hades.

Immediately after the resurrection of Christ, they were all taken up to Heaven. Since the resurrection of Christ, every believer s soul and spirit goes to be with Christ in Heaven, while their bodies remain in the graves awaiting the resurrection of the just (justified ones).

After all the saints are taken to Heaven at the Resurrection-Rapture, the Gospel will be preached by two witnesses, as well as a flying angel.  So once again there will be saints earth, and all these saints will become martyrs under the Antichrist, but will be resurrected for the Millennial reign of Christ.

[7Dove77]

From what I understand from scripture,

The saints need to be (sealed),with Gods Word,before going through the Tribulation.  WE are all going through it,,Scripture says ,Its a form of purification.Scripture says that the Saints will have protection ,going in (Believers).,When they come out of the Tribulation,they will have white robes...meaning,(Purification),

Im pertaining to Saints who are alive here,on earth.

Blessings,With Gods grace..7Dove77