Could we know God and salvation by only the TANAKH ?

[Qnts2]

39 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

You post as if you didn't read the New Testament OR the previous posts.

Several People were saved without any New Testament to read.--- all they had to read was MOSES and the PROPHETS and the PSALMS.  ((see the examples in the New Testament AND in the previous posts)).

They read Tenakh, and had the preaching of the Apostles and the disciples who told about Jesus. 

The very first preaching of the gospel is in Acts 2

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

¹⁵ For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. So, they were told about Jesus, before the writing of the NT. Today, the witnesses of Jesus wrote the gospels to show Who Jesus is and what He did. Or believers can go out and share the gospel. Or, in some circumstances when there are no believers available to share the good news of Jesus, God will give a person a revelation of Jesus. In all situations, it is not just the Tenakh. It is the Tenakh plus information or revelation about Jesus. Some Gentiles learn about Jesus first, without ever having read the Tenakh. But, all important is learning about Jesus since it is only through Jesus that we can know God, and receive eternal salvation.

[Ezra]

43 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

Several People were saved without any New Testament to read.--- all they had to read was MOSES and the PROPHETS and the PSALMS.  ((see the examples in the New Testament AND in the previous posts)).

No one is disputing that.  The point is that today the whole world has the ENTIRE BIBLE, so this business of limiting someone to the OT at this point is purely hypothetical.  Orthodox Jews may limit themselves to the Tanakh, but there is no reason why all Jews should not read the NT in Hebrew or English.

[SINNERSAVED]

24 minutes ago, Ezra said:

No one is disputing that.  The point is that today the whole world has the ENTIRE BIBLE, so this business of limiting someone to the OT at this point is purely hypothetical.  Orthodox Jews may limit themselves to the Tanakh, but there is no reason why all Jews should not read the NT in Hebrew or English.

you are not understanding what this topic is all about, and so , there is a lesson you could learn here,

 for when there is a answer for every thing and no one needs to look any more we will all be perfect ?

you have separated the jew from the Gentile the church from the jew,  other religions from Christianity , and people that think differently to violators , and law breakers, you say that we are under grace and the law is no more ?, you have taken the new testament and thrown out the old testament, and then you say , we have the whole bible at our finger tips, but you do not believe that any of the law is still valid,

 so please explain how do you get that ? all we need is the grace of Jesus and not the OT, tell me how it is that if any one does not see it your way they are false teaching of teaching doctrines of devils ? as you have refered to me, you have ask me if I believe in the trinity , what does that have to do ,with brotherly love for the same faith and the word of God we both believe in , and share,?

if I could can I ask you what is the bible that you prefer or read as your main bible, ? is it the KJV,?

 

[Ezra]

21 minutes ago, SINNERSAVED said:

you have taken the new testament and thrown out the old testament, and then you say , we have the whole bible at our finger tips, ...

Since I have indeed stated that the ENTIRE BIBLE today is for both Jew and Gentile, you are falsely accusing me of "throwing out" the OT.  It would appear that this thread is about throwing out the NT. And the whole Bible is indeed at the fingertips of humanity through the Internet. I use the KJV exclusively, and for good reasons. 

Since the whole Bible has been around for over 2,000 years, it is purely hypothetical to talk about the OT exclusively. Yes, a person could simply read Genesis 15:6, and do exactly what Abraham did before Christ came to this earth, but that is no longer the case.

And you still need to affirm whether you believe in the Trinity and the Deity of Christ. There remains a veil over those minds who do not believe and affirm these truths (as you will find stated in Scripture at 2 Cor 3:13-16).

[SINNERSAVED]

12 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Since I have indeed stated that the ENTIRE BIBLE today is for both Jew and Gentile, you are falsely accusing me of "throwing out" the OT.  It would appear that this thread is about throwing out the NT. And the whole Bible is indeed at the fingertips of humanity through the Internet. I use the KJV exclusively, and for good reasons. 

Since the whole Bible has been around for over 2,000 years, it is purely hypothetical to talk about the OT exclusively. Yes, a person could simply read Genesis 15:6, and do exactly what Abraham did before Christ came to this earth, but that is no longer the case.

And you still need to affirm whether you believe in the Trinity and the Deity of Christ. There remains a veil over those minds who do not believe and affirm these truths (as you will find stated in Scripture at 2 Cor 3:13-16).

I am not falsely accusing you of throwing out the O>T its because you said we are no longer under law, but only grace, then if the law was in the O>T then what good is it for ? for it is no longer valid, you push the trinity view as if it is what saves us, and this does not, ?

to affirm this is nonsense, for it is to see if I just agree with you but holds no part of salvation? are you saying, if I don't claim this then I have violated some law and now my salvation is void, ? please explain?

 

[gdemoss]

Yes, the OT is sufficient to come to a saving knowledge of Christ and his power to save.

Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

The OT scriptures taught of faith in Christ who was in the prophets of old that had salvation in him alone.

1Pe 1:11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

There have always been people who have walked with God in Christ who had salvation through Christ who is eternal life.  The whole OT is a declaration of those who did that was intended to bring many more to the same life giving relationship with God.

[Ezra]

SS I am not falsely accusing you of throwing out the O>T  E: It is right there in black and white in the post I quoted so you can’t deny it.  Here’s what you said: “you have taken the new testament and thrown out the old testament, and then you say , we have the whole bible at our finger tips, “

SS: its because you said we are no longer under law, but only grace,  E: You won’t find that anywhere in this thread in my posts, but it is true.

SS: then if the law was in the O>T then what good is it for ?  E: The answer is in the NT. You can search it out for yourself.  If I were to explain it you would simply argue.

SS: for it is no longer valid, E: Again, that is not something I said, but your invention. The OT is perfectly valid and the Word of God, but the Old Covenant has been replaced by the New Covenant. That is what God says, not what I say.

SS: you push the trinity view as if it is what saves us, and this does not? E: Unless you believe that Jesus is God, you cannot be saved, and unless you believe that the Holy Spirit is God you cannot be sanctified. So these beliefs are essential for salvation.

SS: to affirm this is nonsense,   E: If it were nonsense to affirm the Trinity, then those many battles over the Trinity would not have been fought.  This is a fundamental Bible truth, not “nonsense”.

SS: for it is to see if I just agree with you but holds no part of salvation?  E: It is Jesus who said “Before Abraham was, I AM ... if you believe not that I AM ye shall die in your sins”.  It does not matter if you agree with me, but if you disagree with Jesus, that's a serious problem.

SS: are you saying, if I don't claim this then I have violated some law and now my salvation is void, ? please explain?  E: I did not say anything about violating a law. What I said is that if you do not believe that Jesus is God, and that the God of the Bible is the triune Godhead, your posts have no validity.  Those are fundamental Christian truths.

[saved34]

Yes, but there is a ton of clear revelation you would lose by simply reading the Old. The New Testament is essentially Christ revealing all truth to his called out ones( the church). Which is not an old testament revelation.(Jew and gentile forming one new organism)

Christ told the disciples "I have more things to say...". We know this is the New Testament.

 

"John 16:12 NIV
“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear."

"John 16:13 NIV
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."

The new Testament is essentially all the truth of the Old Testament fulfilled and open plainly.   

I mean, the Apostles rotinely took seemingly meaningless scripture and brought out its true applications.

"1 Corinthians 9:9 NIV
For it is written in the Law of Moses: “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.” Is it about oxen that God is concerned?"

"1 Corinthians 9:10 NIV
Surely he says this for us, doesn't he? Yes, this was written for us, because whoever plows and threshes should be able to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest."

"2 Peter 2:22 NIV
Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

There would be no need for us today to only use the old testament as we have a perfect revelation that those under the old simply did not have.

The great truths of Justification by faith, Christ as our High Priest, believers as being sealed by the Holy Spirit, etc, etc. A lot of these things were still mysteries in the old.

 

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Qnts...

Quote

a direct revelation from God about Jesus is needed.

To sum it up,that was pretty much my point when I was referring to Abraham & the prophets,,,,,,,,that is why I asked if S Saved was referring to someone who had no access to the NT (hearing,reading etc...),for some obscure reason,,,,,,,,,Or talking about the people that lived & dies before Jesus was born,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Praise the Lord!

                                                                                   With love-in Christ,Kwik

[SINNERSAVED]

7 hours ago, Ezra said:

SS I am not falsely accusing you of throwing out the O>T  E: It is right there in black and white in the post I quoted so you can’t deny it.  Here’s what you said: “you have taken the new testament and thrown out the old testament, and then you say , we have the whole bible at our finger tips, “

SS: its because you said we are no longer under law, but only grace,  E: You won’t find that anywhere in this thread in my posts, but it is true.

SS: then if the law was in the O>T then what good is it for ?  E: The answer is in the NT. You can search it out for yourself.  If I were to explain it you would simply argue.

SS: for it is no longer valid, E: Again, that is not something I said, but your invention. The OT is perfectly valid and the Word of God, but the Old Covenant has been replaced by the New Covenant. That is what God says, not what I say.

SS: you push the trinity view as if it is what saves us, and this does not? E: Unless you believe that Jesus is God, you cannot be saved, and unless you believe that the Holy Spirit is God you cannot be sanctified. So these beliefs are essential for salvation.

SS: to affirm this is nonsense,   E: If it were nonsense to affirm the Trinity, then those many battles over the Trinity would not have been fought.  This is a fundamental Bible truth, not “nonsense”.

SS: for it is to see if I just agree with you but holds no part of salvation?  E: It is Jesus who said “Before Abraham was, I AM ... if you believe not that I AM ye shall die in your sins”.  It does not matter if you agree with me, but if you disagree with Jesus, that's a serious problem.

SS: are you saying, if I don't claim this then I have violated some law and now my salvation is void, ? please explain?  E: I did not say anything about violating a law. What I said is that if you do not believe that Jesus is God, and that the God of the Bible is the triune Godhead, your posts have no validity.  Those are fundamental Christian truths.

do you consider your self to be a teacher of the word ?