the scripture of Genesis Water above, and water below the heavens ?

[OakWood]

No matter how high you go the horizon rises to eye level and remains in a straight line. It shows no curvature.

As you can see from this photograph there is no curvature. Even at altitudes much higher there is no curvature.

The only time you will see a curvature is when a fish-eye or wide angle lens is used, and it's no coincidence that when it comes to NASA, the military, or government approved photos, a fish-eye lens is nearly always used and the popular action go-pro cameras also use wide angle lens.

Videos taken through a fish-eye lens are often easy to spot though because as the camera moves they won't just show a curved horizon they will sometimes also show a flat horizon or even a horizon that curves downward making the Earth look concave. The closer the image is to the centre of the lens, the more accurate is the image because there is less distortion. Distortion is greater towards the edges of the lens.

Here is an example of a fish-eye lens giving the impression that the horizon curves: (notice too the curved wing of the plane)

Now if you remember a few years back when Felix Baumgartner broke the record for the highest freefall and you could clearly see the curvature of the Earth, well this was caused by a fish-eye lens. However if you watch the video, you will also see the horizon appear concave at times and when it does the straight lines of his aircraft also appear curved, but the biggest clue was when he first opened the door to his little capsule and we see a perfectly straight horizon because the view was mainly in the middle of the lens.

Oops, that wasn't meant to happen. I guess they're just going to hope that nobody noticed...... remember that he was over 100,000 feet when this shot was taken.

And if anybody is going to suggest that this is not high enough to see the curvature of the Earth then why do we see a curvature the rest of the time that he is falling? Well the answer is the fish-eye lens again.

The truth is there is no curvature until you get high enough to see the end of the flat circle that we live on and then you may see the round rim of the circle beneath you. At heights of over 100,000 feet the curvature (if it existed) would not be seen at eye level because if you are above a ball the horizon would drop and you would have to keep looking down to see it.

Experiments have proven time and again that the Earth cannot be a ball and the horizon test is just one of many......

 

[hmbld]

Or even at 100,000 feet, that is less than 20 miles high, trying to examine a ball with a diameter of 8000 miles, through atmosphere is impossible.  Your fish eye lens photos provide no proof, fish eye lens cameras are intentional, not to deceive you, but to capture things close up, again it is intentional, the subject matter chosen was not the horizon.  A normal lens is not going to capture enough of the horizon at 20 miles up to show anything.  Its all about perspective, lens angle, and understanding the limits and qualities of using different camera lens.

I say you have proven nothing, yet it is very interesting to examine things most of us believe without any personal proof.

Pull up Google Earth, you can zoom out and rotate the earth, I prove my point!

[hmbld]

5 hours ago, OakWood said:

The Earth is not a globe...... it's not possible. Simple scientific experiments prove this.

Please provide proof.

[Kan]

If the earth was flat, the atmosphere would bend the horizon upwards, so that it would seem like we are living in a bowl. 

To the untrained eye the earth is flat. Even the slightest curve can be seen in a couple of samples you gave. From that height the earth is still a very vast planet showing an extended horizon. 

 

[hmbld]

5 minutes ago, Kan said:

If the earth was flat, the atmosphere would bend the horizon upwards, so that it would seem like we are living in a bowl. 

To the untrained eye the earth is flat. Even the slightest curve can be seen in a couple of samples you gave. From that height the earth is still a very vast planet showing an extended horizon. 

 

Exactly, even at 20 miles up, the camera is capturing a very small part of the horizon, one needs to understand the scale of the earth, and even then you would have to be up there in person, not looking through a camera.  At 20 miles, the horizon is going to be all around you, one has to get farther away from the earth before the horizon drops to a point below you enough to see the curve, but that this effect would be the same when examining a sphere below you, or a flat earth below you.  So this whole experiment, which I believe none of us are doing in real life, fails.  Flat earth or globe, the horizon appears the same until you get far enough away to leave the atmosphere and gain the proper perspective.  

[Kan]

11 minutes ago, hmbld said:

Exactly, even at 20 miles up, the camera is capturing a very small part of the horizon, one needs to understand the scale of the earth, and even then you would have to be up there in person, not looking through a camera.  At 20 miles, the horizon is going to be all around you, one has to get farther away from the earth before the horizon drops to a point below you enough to see the curve, but that this effect would be the same when examining a sphere below you, or a flat earth below you.  So this whole experiment, which I believe none of us are doing in real life, fails.  Flat earth or globe, the horizon appears the same until you get far enough away to leave the atmosphere and gain the proper perspective.  

We can see the curvature of the earth from the beach, the container ships go below and come up over the horizon. 

[Retrobyter]

18 hours ago, Kan said:

Yes, it is very interesting, and although I am not particularly familiar with the Hebrew language, it reveals more depth to these passages. I don't agree that this passage is talking about the flood, but about the foundations of the earth, because God introduces the subject by a question about the foundations and what they are fastened on. Nevertheless I won't contend on that matter because both applications are true as far as I can see, because in the next few verses it talks about the springs of water etc. Which came after the flood waters were driven from off the land.

 

Shabbat shalom, Kan.

Okay, let's look at the whole chapter (which is only part of God's speech):

Job 38:1-41
1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said: 

2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me. 

4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy? 

8 "Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, 'This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt'? 

12 "Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken. 

16 "Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this. 

19 "What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years! 

22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?
24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,
26 to water a land where no man lives,
a desert with no one in it,
27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?
28 Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen? 

31 "Can you bind the beautiful Pleiades?
Can you loose the cords of Orion?
32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons or lead out the Bear with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up [God's] dominion over the earth? 

34 "Can you raise your voice to the clouds
and cover yourself with a flood of water?
35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, 'Here we are'?
36 Who endowed the heart with wisdom
or gave understanding to the mind?
37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
38 when the dust becomes hard
and the clods of earth stick together? 

39 "Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
and satisfy the hunger of the lions
40 when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in a thicket?
41 Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food? 
NIV

If you've ever had the chance to study the Flood from the 150 or so passages found in the Scriptures about it, you would understand that ALL of this chapter is about the Flood! Starting with verses 8-11, these are obviously talking about the Flood because before the Flood there were no clouds and only AFTER the Flood were the limits placed on how far the waves could come to the shore. Those limits were set by establishing the continental shelves!

The Flood was a time of TREMENDOUS UPHEAVAL! There are evidences of a huge plate of rock half the size of Montana being FLIPPED OVER! Everybody knows about "the 40 days and 40 nights of rain," but they conveniently FORGET about the breaking up of the fountains of the great deep, the "springs of the sea!" There was much volcanism going on during that YEAR!, not to mention the "sedimentation" of tons and tons of rock, mud, silt and debris, whole FORESTS of "debris," as in Antarctica! Whole GRAVEYARDS of "debris," as the MILLIONS of animals and men were buried under the rock, mud, silt and debris!

Genesis 7:11-12
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
KJV

Genesis 7:21-24
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.
KJV

There were discoveries of wooly mammoths FLASH FROZEN, knocked to their haunches and encased in ice, in the tundra of Siberia with FRESH buttercups still in their mouths!

Genesis 8:1-5
1 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters assuaged;
2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;
3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.
4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.
5 And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.
KJV

Genesis 8:13-14
13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.
14 And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.
KJV

God HAD to re-lay the foundations of the ground to re-establish a place for Noach and his family to live! That's how much complete devastation there was from this thing merely called a "Flood" or a "Deluge!" This was definitely NOT some local flooding that people could move away and escape; this was a GLOBAL CATASTROPHE!

Backing up to verses 4-7, these verses, too, are talking about the Flood, not Creation. First, it was their CURRENT earth that was being discussed, not the earth that was before the Flood. God was RE-forming the earth's crust, establishing the earth - the soil or the Land - upon new "foundations of the earth." Second, the word for this phrase is "byaacdiy erets" and it means "in-settlings of-earth" - SEDIMENTS! Thus, this passage is talking about the aftermath of the Flood. The next phrase is "`al mah edaaneeyhaa haaTbaa`uw" or "into what were its footings sunk?"

So, please understand that this chapter really IS talking about the "Flood!"

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, OakWood said:

No,the horizon remains at eye level no matter how high you go. This is a fact and has nothing to do with a man's height. Even at 100,000 feet the horizon remains at eye level and remains straight. On a sphere the horizon would fall before that and you would have to keep looking downwards.  You appear to be answering a question that was not asked. I actually said 'no matter how high you go', so where six feet high comes into this I've no idea.

The Earth is not a globe...... it's not possible. Simple scientific experiments prove this.

Shabbat shalom, OakWood.

Kan just made a VERY good point. These ships don't SINK as they disappear beyond the horizon, nor do they RISE out of the ocean as they come back into view from beyond the horizon! Also, two other things come to mind:

First, how is it possible for people in one part of the earth to have night while other people in another part of the earth have day? Wouldn't the sun be visible, although at varying angles, from ALL parts of a flat earth? How would it ever become night if the sun didn't sink below the disk of the flat earth? But, wouldn't that make it night for ALL?!

Second, although I'll grant you the "fish-eye lens" picture above, you are also neglecting mountains and clouds in the distance, which will also be making up that horizon!

Now, let's think about this for a moment using standard trigonometry: The earth, if a sphere, is said to be 24,902 miles in circumference at the equator. That would put the radius of the planet from its surface to its center at 3,963.3 miles. Roughly speaking, that would translate to 20,926,099 feet. Where a person is standing, a person's height to his eyes would be slightly lower than his overall height, but let's just say it is 6 feet for simplicity. That would make a right triangle of one leg being 20,926,099 feet and a hypotenuse of 20,926,105 feet. What would be the angle from the person to the horizon, where the right angle would be?

An old Indian once taught me that the answer to most trigonometry questions was found in the phrase, "SOH CAH TOA!" That is,

the Sine of an angle was equal to the length of the side Opposite from the angle divided by the length of the Hypotenuse;
the Cosine of an angle was equal to the length of the side Adjacent to the angle divided by the length of the Hypotenuse; and
the Tangent of an angle was equal to the length of the side Opposite from the angle divided by the length of the side Adjacent to the angle.

Therefore, the sine of the angle we've been asked to find is equal to the side Opposite from our angle, 20,926,099 feet, divided by the Hyponetuse, 20,926,105 feet. So, the sine of our angle is 20,926,099 feet / 20,926,105 feet = 0.999999713276792. Taking the arcsine of this value, we get 89.9566... degrees - "eye level." And, that angle would be the same all the way around us in a circle.

The cosine of this angle would be 0.000757262394219285, which would be the side Adjacent divided by the Hypotenuse. Multiply both sides by the length of the hypotenuse, and we get 15,846.55 feet / 5280 feet per mile = 3 miles. Past the 3-mile point, our vision of the ship would be cut off by the earth's bulk.

Now, let's do the same thing for 20 miles up.

Nothing would change the radius of the earth, but the Hypotenuse would now be the radius + 20 miles.
Therefore the sine of the angle is equal to the side Opposite from our angle, the earth's radius of 3,963.3 miles, divided by the Hypotenuse, the earth's radius of 3,963.3 miles + 20 miles = 3983.3 miles. Therefore the sine of the angle would be 0.994979007724451, and taking the arcsine of this value would give us 84.256 degrees. Because all of the detail is below us with little above us by sky, we're NOT going to tell there was much difference from the 90 degrees to the horizon, and that would be a true for the same angle completely around us in a 360-degree circle! Therefore, we would see (at practically eye-level) a straight horizon! The cosine of this angle is 0.100083835796131 and multiplying by our hypotenuse of 3,983.3 miles, we can now see 398.66 miles to the horizon, almost 400 miles! But, 400 miles to our right and 400 miles to our left is still only 800 miles and is only 0.032126 of the whole earth's circumference!

So, what has changed? NOTHING ... except, for a slight depression of our viewing angle which would ONLY be noticed if one was looking across the top of a level! Because the horizon is a circle 360 degrees around you, you are seeing the circle EDGE ON IN ALL DIRECTIONS! You would NEVER see the "curvature of the horizon" because YOU'RE STANDING ON IT!

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, hmbld said:

Or even at 100,000 feet, that is less than 20 miles high, trying to examine a ball with a diameter of 8000 miles, through atmosphere is impossible.  Your fish eye lens photos provide no proof, fish eye lens cameras are intentional, not to deceive you, but to capture things close up, again it is intentional, the subject matter chosen was not the horizon.  A normal lens is not going to capture enough of the horizon at 20 miles up to show anything.  Its all about perspective, lens angle, and understanding the limits and qualities of using different camera lens.

I say you have proven nothing, yet it is very interesting to examine things most of us believe without any personal proof.

Pull up Google Earth, you can zoom out and rotate the earth, I prove my point!

Shabbat shalom, hmbld.

Right you are! The fish-eye lens is meant to capture more information. It brings to focus the things far away as well as the things up close. It also changes the fore-shortening effect, and by bending the horizon, takes in more of the horizon.

[OakWood]

 

Or even at 100,000 feet, that is less than 20 miles high, trying to examine a ball with a diameter of 8000 miles, through atmosphere is impossible.  Your fish eye lens photos provide no proof, fish eye lens cameras are intentional, not to deceive you, but to capture things close up, again it is intentional, the subject matter chosen was not the horizon.  A normal lens is not going to capture enough of the horizon at 20 miles up to show anything.  Its all about perspective, lens angle, and understanding the limits and qualities of using different camera lens.

I say you have proven nothing, yet it is very interesting to examine things most of us believe without any personal proof.

Pull up Google Earth, you can zoom out and rotate the earth, I prove my point!

I've given you proof. What more do you want? Trying to examine a ball through atmosphere is impossible? Really? What a ridiculous thing to say, when most of the so-called proof of the globe Earth relies on trying to do exactly that. And please don't make me laugh by talking about Google Earth. That's like saying Bugs Bunny is real, I saw him in a cartoon.

Anybody with an inquiring mind would investigate further after the photos that I have shown, but not the mockers and scoffers. You are not mocking me, you are mocking the word of God......... The Bible does not support a spinning Globe Earth. A globe cannot be fixed and have a firmament above it. I now realize that some people will always mock the truth and no matter what proof you give them they will always reject it. You have more faith in your globe fantasy than you have faith in the truth.