The End of the Gentile World System.

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again Marilyn C,

 

I certainly hope it is soon, as it will be an indication that Christ will intervene and judge the nations that come into the Holy Land at that time.

I would like to mention one aspect of the 6^th Vial as an example of the symbols, and how these can be to some extent determined by OT language.

Revelation 16:12 (KJV): And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

 

The question arises, is this speaking of the river actually drying up, or is this symbolic language. The figure of a river and a river in flood has been used to represent a political and military power:

Isaiah 8:7-8 (KJV): 7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks: 8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.

 

This then compares the Assyrian invasion to a flood. The Assyrian did not stay in its own territory, but like a river overflows its banks and sweeps away with some force everything in its path.

 

Could the Euphrates River towards the time of the end thus represent a nation or a power? The Euphrates has its source in Turkey and for many years the Turkish Empire ruled over a large area of the Middle East and beyond. It was like a river in flood, extending its influence well outside its normal territory.

 

But there was a gradual decline, a drying up of the Turkish Empire. This started approximately in 1820, and there were then successive stages of withdrawal. A 1915 map shows the extent down into Arabia, and along the full length of the Euphrates. In 1917 the British and Commonwealth forces pushed Turkey out of these areas, and I believe that this fulfills the first part of:

Daniel 11: 40 (KJV): And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him:

 

This action by the British forces allowed the clearing of the Land to enable the partial and preliminary return of the Jews to the Holy Land. So the drying up started in 1820, and then a significant step occurred in 1917. I also believe the final step to allow the rest of the 6^th Vial is when a King of the North invades Turkey, thus completely drying up the Power previously known as “Euphrates River”.

 

I will leave this with you Marilyn. I am not asking you to definitely accept this, but this is an indication of what I believe is depicted in this particular symbol. How long we have to wait for the final stage we will have to be patient, but Russia could take over Turkey very quickly.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

Hi Trevor,

Thank you for your explanation. However do you see that God gave the interpretation regarding the Assyrians. Now as you are looking for Armageddon where do you see the Russian war, as per Ezekiel?

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

6 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Irrelevant to the point. Right now the population of the world is the greatest it has ever been, or likely ever will be. And suddenly, civil order will collapse into chaos and anarchy and warlord-ism and gruesome GMO-plagues never before seen. The crying out of all the world's souls in their tribulation will be beyond anything "since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor shall ever be." Billions will die in short order, most through some kind of suffering

In contrast, by the time of the Bowls, the world will have been massively depopulated, and the total quantitative suffering of souls will be much less. Mass consciousness has a power of its own, and it is largely dependent upon its numbers.

Hi William,

I don`t see suddenly civil order will collapse into chaos etc. So again we`ll have to wait & see. As regards the `Day of the Wrath of God` -

Gk. `orge` expresses wrath, anger, vengeance with connotations of punishment. To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity. (Is. 26: 21)

Thus I see that that time will be the greatest the world has ever known.

Marilyn.

[WilliamL]

3 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

I don`t see suddenly civil order will collapse into chaos etc. So again we`ll have to wait & see.

Matt. 24:21 “For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. [This therefore means the period of the Trumpets and Bowls will not be as severe.] 22 “And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

These will be "as the days of Noah" and "as the days of Lot," when there were mass deaths in short order. "Men's hearts will be failing them from fear because of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken." If not from chaos and famine and pestilence and Death and Hades unleashed [4th Seal], what else could it possibly be?

Whereas when the Beast afterwards establishes his kingdom during the Trumpets, there will at least be a New World Order to provide a semblance of normalcy, so much so that people will feel no need to repent. Remember, the mantra of those who are preparing the way for this NWO is "order out of chaos." So yes, there will be chaos, which is to say the collapse of civil order.

[Marilyn C]

3 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Matt. 24:21 “For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. [This therefore means the period of the Trumpets and Bowls will not be as severe.] 22 “And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

These will be "as the days of Noah" and "as the days of Lot," when there were mass deaths in short order. "Men's hearts will be failing them from fear because of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken." If not from chaos and famine and pestilence and Death and Hades unleashed [4th Seal], what else could it possibly be?

Whereas when the Beast afterwards establishes his kingdom during the Trumpets, there will at least be a New World Order to provide a semblance of normalcy, so much so that people will feel no need to repent. Remember, the mantra of those who are preparing the way for this NWO is "order out of chaos." So yes, there will be chaos, which is to say the collapse of civil order.

Hi William,

We are butting heads for we see the trib & day of wrath differently. I see the trib as the overview & the day of wrath as the last part. You see them separately. So I think we have both had our say but are no closer to clarity as yet. So I think it may be time to move on, ay?

Marilyn. 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Marilyn C,

 

12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

However do you see that God gave the interpretation regarding the Assyrians.

Not sure what you are asking here, but God clearly spoke of the Assyrian invasion and one such invasion occurred in the time of Hezekiah.

12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Now as you are looking for Armageddon where do you see the Russian war, as per Ezekiel?

 

I believe that Ezekiel 38 depicts Russia as the head of the northern confederacy that invades the Holy Land. I also believe that this is one of the many descriptions the Battle of Armageddon. I consider that the following are parallel accounts of this same Battle: Ezekiel 38, Daniel 8:23-25, 11:40-45, Joel 3:9-16, Zechariah 14:1-3, Revelation 16:13-14,16.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[Marilyn C]

12 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again Marilyn C,

 

Not sure what you are asking here, but God clearly spoke of the Assyrian invasion and one such invasion occurred in the time of Hezekiah.

 

I believe that Ezekiel 38 depicts Russia as the head of the northern confederacy that invades the Holy Land. I also believe that this is one of the many descriptions the Battle of Armageddon. I consider that the following are parallel accounts of this same Battle: Ezekiel 38, Daniel 8:23-25, 11:40-45, Joel 3:9-16, Zechariah 14:1-3, Revelation 16:13-14,16.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

Hi Trevor,

I was pointing out that the example you used of the river representing a Political power was explained by God in His word. Whereas the river Euphrates does not have that interpretation by God. You said -  

The question arises, is this speaking of the river actually drying up, or is this symbolic language. The figure of a river and a river in flood has been used to represent a political and military power:

Isaiah 8:7-8 (KJV): 7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks: 8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.

 

I also believe that the Battle of Armageddon is shown in -  Dan. 8: 25,  last part of Dan. 11: 45, Joel 3, Zech. 14 & Rev. 16, however I do not see it described in Ez. 38 or Dan. 11: 44.

 

Dan. 11: 44 - we see the A/C going to battle with other nations. This to me is prior to Armageddon.

Ez. 38 - here we only see the Federation from the far north & not all the nations of the world.

 

 Armageddon.

 

 `I will gather all nations, & bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat: I will enter into judgment with them there.` (Joel 3: 2)

 

`For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole earth & of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.....Armageddon.` (Rev. 16: 14 & 16)

 

 

Marilyn.

 

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Marilyn C,

12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

I was pointing out that the example you used of the river representing a Political power was explained by God in His word. Whereas the river Euphrates does not have that interpretation by God.

Yes I agree there is no directly given interpretation of the Euphrates River. This is also true of many of the symbols and signs in the Book of Revelation. One statement that has been coined is "The New is in the Old concealed, the Old is in the New revealed." The both are dependant upon each other. As such I believe that such passages as Isaiah 8:7-8 help to establish the meaning. Also an understanding of history helps to see how some of the earlier signs and symbols apply to the fulfilled events, and this becomes a guide to future events depicted by the various symbols.

Another factor is that this is a reversal of the earlier prophecy, the 6th Trumpet:
Revelation 9:13-14 (KJV): 13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
There were many expositors in the era AD 1557-1689 that understood this to represent the expansion of the Turkish Empire.

12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

I also believe that the Battle of Armageddon is shown in -  Dan. 8: 25,  last part of Dan. 11: 45, Joel 3, Zech. 14 & Rev. 16, however I do not see it described in Ez. 38 or Dan. 11: 44.

 

Dan. 11: 44 - we see the A/C going to battle with other nations. This to me is prior to Armageddon.

Ez. 38 - here we only see the Federation from the far north & not all the nations of the world.

There is some resistance from other nations, a southern confederacy, but it appears that the King of the North of both Ezekiel 38 and Daniel 11:40 is at first successful.
Ezekiel 38:13 (KJV): Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?

Ezekiel 38 speaks of the Divine intervention, and this also occurs in Daniel 11:45.

I believe the Antichrist, the Papacy, plays a major role after Armageddon.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

Edited May 17, 2016 by TrevorL

[Marilyn C]

11 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again Marilyn C,

Yes I agree there is no directly given interpretation of the Euphrates River. This is also true of many of the symbols and signs in the Book of Revelation. One statement that has been coined is "The New is in the Old concealed, the Old is in the New revealed." The both are dependant upon each other. As such I believe that such passages as Isaiah 8:7-8 help to establish the meaning. Also an understanding of history helps to see how some of the earlier signs and symbols apply to the fulfilled events, and this becomes a guide to future events depicted by the various symbols.

Another factor is that this is a reversal of the earlier prophecy, the 6th Trumpet:
Revelation 9:13-14 (KJV): 13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
There were many expositors in the era AD 1557-1689 that understood this to represent the expansion of the Turkish Empire.

There is some resistance from other nations, a southern confederacy, but it appears that the King of the North of both Ezekiel 38 and Daniel 11:40 is at first successful.
Ezekiel 38:13 (KJV): Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?

Ezekiel 38 speaks of the Divine intervention, and this also occurs in Daniel 11:45.

I believe the Antichrist, the Papacy, plays a major role after Armageddon.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

Hi Trevor,

Yes there are many symbols & signs in God`s word but He interprets them all. By your explanation then all rivers are symbols of Political power, & that is nonsense.

Also it is not a reversal of the previous prophecy but a continuation of that event – loosening the angels at the river Euphrates & later the kings of the East able to cross over that river on their way to Armageddon.  

 

Now regarding the King of the North -

In Daniel 11 was predicted the course of world history involving continual warfare between two great Empires, the legacy of Alexander the Great. The Seleucid Dynasty identified as Assyria, the King of the North, & the Ptolomaic Dynasty, the King of the South, ie Egypt including Libya.

Daniel (11: 40) is finally directed to jump two thousand years until the `Time of the End.` These two areas in the Middle east would again return to the focus of world attention. Each contending for key leadership of the Arab Countries, to be recognised as the Moslem Messiah.

 

Now the northern Federation we read about in Ezekiel 38 is from the `far northern quarter` of the world.

`Gomer, & all its troops, the house of Togarmah from the far north & all its troops...` (Ez. 38: 6)

North quarter – Heb. `tsaphon,` meaning hidden, used only of the north as a quarter.

 

Marilyn.

 

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Marilyn C,

5 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Yes there are many symbols & signs in God`s word but He interprets them all. By your explanation then all rivers are symbols of Political power, & that is nonsense.

No, God has not clearly given the interpretation of each symbol, but many of them can be understood by careful examination, using various methods and understanding history, and by prayer and humility. I do not suggest that all rivers are symbols of Political Power and yes this would be ridiculous.  

 

5 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Also it is not a reversal of the previous prophecy but a continuation of that event – loosening the angels at the river Euphrates & later the kings of the East able to cross over that river on their way to Armageddon.  

It appears that you take the Euphrates here to be literal, but I believe it is a symbol. Revelation 9:13-19, the 6^th Trumpet, seems to be speaking of military activity, the expansion of a Political Power. Revelation 16 speaks of the drying up of that same Political and Military Power. Possibly we have a different view of who these “kings of the east” are. There is a slight echo of Cyrus taking Babylon in the language used, and this was drying up the Euphrates that was passing through the city – nothing to do with crossing over the river. A river these days does not hinder an army, so your suggestion does not seem practical or relevant.

 

5 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Now regarding the King of the North -

In Daniel 11 was predicted the course of world history involving continual warfare between two great Empires, the legacy of Alexander the Great. The Seleucid Dynasty identified as Assyria, the King of the North, & the Ptolomaic Dynasty, the King of the South, ie Egypt including Libya.

Daniel (11: 40) is finally directed to jump two thousand years until the `Time of the End.` These two areas in the Middle east would again return to the focus of world attention. Each contending for key leadership of the Arab Countries, to be recognised as the Moslem Messiah.

I link the latter day little horn of the goat of Daniel 8 with the latter day king of the north of Daniel 11, and thus this king of the north is Roman in character, not Muslim.

 

6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Now the northern Federation we read about in Ezekiel 38 is from the `far northern quarter` of the world.

`Gomer, & all its troops, the house of Togarmah from the far north & all its troops...` (Ez. 38: 6)

North quarter – Heb. `tsaphon,` meaning hidden, used only of the north as a quarter.

Yes, I believe that this is talking of Russia who comes from the far north, but he descends first to take over the role of the Roman King of the North when he takes Turkey.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

[Murphy]

On 5/11/2016 at 5:16 AM, n2thelight said:

Hello Marilyn

 

To answer your question,you must understand how I see Israel,not debating.

I see Israel as the Christian nations of the world today,I see the Jew's as Judah.

When the nation state of Israel became a nation again the good and the bad figs returned,the bad being those that call themselves Jew's but are not,they're imposters ,for the most part they rule the world now and they are waiting on the return of their father whom is satan.

The below can say how I see things better than I can explain it and I'm in agreement with it....

http://www.theseason.org/zechariah/zechariah12.htm

 

 

Wow!

 

There are not many of us.....who SEE!

 

Yes, the Western nations, traditionally Christian nations, are the scattered Israelites.

Yes, and Judah.........Judah has kept the Torah, not blameless by any means, but, they have done their part.

The Nation State, that is another matter.

 

Glad to see you get it.

 

Very encouraging to me.