When Nations turn against Israel

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

I disagree on a few points. I think the 24 elders are the very people Jesus raised in Mat. 27 when HE rose.

Could be, but there is not textual support.  The Elders claim to be redeemed of every tribe, tongue, and nation.   Kinda hard fit all that into 24 Elders.   I do agree that the resurrected saints of Matthew 27 were taken to be with the Father, but there is nothing to suggest they are the complete 24 Elders.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

I know the first seal is NOT teh Antichrist (2000 years off in timing) because Jesus got the book into His hands as soon as He ascended and began immediately opening the seals. The first hint of a time of waiting is at the 5th seal, the martyrs of teh church age. You are RUSHING John! the 5th seal is for church age martyrs. Stephen was in that bunch. 

 

Well that would only fit if your supposition that the 24 Elders are already complete and in place.  You are going to have to provide some serious scripture support for that assertion.  I am not sure there is any.  So the first error has blossomed into a second error.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

The first seal is the CHURCH sent out to make disciples. OF COURSE there must be conquering because Satan was and is the god of this world. Seals two through 4 ride together, they are to represent Satan's attempts to stop the advance of the Gospel. However, God has LIMITED them in their "theater of operation" to only 1/4 of the earth. I think that 1/4 would be centered on Jerusalem where the Gospel began and would take in Europe, Africa and the Middle East. There is no hint of the number of people killed. Keep in mind, this is CHURCH AGE, not end times. Both world wars started in Europe. The black plague hit twice in Europe, but times killing around 1/3 of the people. There has been famine after famine in Africa. It all fits. They don't "gain" one forth, they are LIMITED to one fourth.

Ok, I get it now... you are using an allegorical approach to scripture interpretation.  Now it all makes sense.  Only problem with doing that, is that the baseline standard of exegesis gets moved around to fit particular views.  It becomes  a moving target that one can set anywhere they want..  I like to adhere to a standard baseline of scripture interpretation...... "when the plain sense of a passage makes sense, then seek no other sense, lest it all becomes nonsense".    And another principle I have adopted to help weed out the raft of ideas floating around.... any position that someone wants me to see has to be confirmed in both the OT and NT.  The Bereans were commended by the Holy Spirit for using that same methodology, so I figure it is a good one to adopt also.

I doubt anything I will input at this point will make a dent.  When folks head down the road you have, it usually takes something more to get them back on the right track.  I wish you well in your scripture hermeneutic travels.

Edited October 2, 2018 by OldCoot

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

Could be, but there is not textual support.  The Elders claim to be redeemed of every tribe, tongue, and nation.   Kinda hard fit all that into 24 Elders.   I do agree that the resurrected saints of Matthew 27 were taken to be with the Father, but there is nothing to suggest they are the complete 24 Elders.

Well that would only fit if your supposition that the 24 Elders are already complete and in place.  You are going to have to provide some serious scripture support for that assertion.  I am not sure there is any.  So the first error has blossomed into a second error.

Ok, I get it now... you are using an allegorical approach to scripture interpretation.  Now it all makes sense.  Only problem with doing that, is that the baseline standard of exegesis gets moved around to fit particular views.  It becomes  a moving target that one can set anywhere they want..  I like to adhere to a standard baseline of scripture interpretation...... "when the plain sense of a passage makes sense, then seek no other sense, lest it all becomes nonsense".    And another principle I have adopted to help weed out the raft of ideas floating around.... any position that someone wants me to see has to be confirmed in both the OT and NT.  The Bereans were commended by the Holy Spirit for using that same methodology, so I figure it is a good one to adopt also.

I doubt anything I will input at this point will make a dent.  When folks head down the road you have, it usually takes something more to get them back on the right track.  I wish you well in your scripture hermeneutic travels.

Allegory?  I think not. 

What else could one think when John sees a throne room with Jesus absent, then later sees the moment Jesus arrived back into the throne room?  Then John saw a throne room with the Holy Spirit present, then later saw Jesus arrive and the Holy Spirit sent down. John saw a search to find one worthy end in failure, but later heard that someone had been found - presumably in the very next search. This is all pointing to TIME, TIMING and the MOVEMENT of time. 

ACtually, it is pointing to the time that Jesus rose from the dead to be immediately found worthy because He and become the Redeemer of mankind, being the first man EVER to rise from the dead under His own power. What time was it when Jesus ascended? 32 AD? It is close enough to understand what God is trying to show us in these chapters: he is establishing the TIMING of the first seal to 32 AD. 

Without ANY doubt, seals 2, 3, 4, and 5 were opened within minutes. The first hint we get of a wait - a long period of time, is at the 5th seal. 

Actually, and surprisingly, many of the commentators agree on this. So NO allegories! It is what each seal was meant to represent. I personally don't think there is a real white horse and rider spreading the gospel, so it is symbolic. Well, OF COURSE Satan would wish to stop the advance of the Gospel! There is little doubt of that.  Where to missionaries go when a war breaks out? They go home. There can be very little doubt that each world war slowed down the advance of the gospel, at least for a time.  Same with pestilences when many people die: Missionaries go home.  Well, most of them do. John G Lake did not! 

It was only a guess on the 24 elders. You made a good point on the elders, but let's look:

⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

They were singing, not just for themselves for for what Jesus just did: he died and shed His blood for the sins of the world, which would INCLUDE "every Kinddred, tongue, people and nation." So this does not really fit them alone. 

I have guessed on the elders because they show up about the same time Jesus rose from the dead.  I am certainly not dogmatic on that. 

Now, do you still think I am taking an " allegorical approach?"  I don't! I think I am taking a very literal approach!

[OldCoot]

The key to looking at the seals timing is “after these things” of Revelation 4:1.   So it begs the question “after what things?” which can only mean the preceding 3 chapters which is the era of the Churches.   

So by simple logic and using grade school grammatical construct, there is no basis for your assertion on seal timing.  Your method is indeed allegorical.

Keep in mind the very first verse of the book...

Revelation 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

Now just from that, Yeshua was not aware of the details when you suggest, as He got the info from the Father and then gave it to an angel to give to John to write down for us. 

Remember... context is everything.

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, OldCoot said:

The key to looking at the seals timing is “after these things” of Revelation 4:1.   So it begs the question “after what things?” which can only mean the preceding 3 chapters which is the era of the Churches.   

So by simple logic and using grade school grammatical construct, there is no basis for your assertion on seal timing.  Your method is indeed allegorical.

Keep in mind the very first verse of the book...

Revelation 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

Now just from that, Yeshua was not aware of the details when you suggest, as He got the info from the Father and then gave it to an angel to give to John to write down for us. 

Remember... context is everything.

You are putting FAR too much emphasis on "after these things." John used a similar phrase 6 times in Revelation, and all as a transitional phrase when the vision changed directions.  John CERTAINLY did not me "after the church age.  In truth, these were 7 letters written to seven churches who were there in John's day. I am quite sure when THEY read what was to each church, they did not think "after the church age." 

Indeed, God changed directions: instead of letters to each church, God wanted to call John up to heaven. 

I could rephrase it: 

New Living Translation  Then as I looked, 

English Standard Version  After this I looked,

Berean Study Bible  After this I looked 

Good News Translation  At this point I had another vision

Holman Christian Standard Bible  After this I looked, 

Weymouth New Testament  After all this I looked

You get the idea. If anything, it would be: after he wrote message to the 7 churches under his care, I looked and saw...

Therefore there IS every basis for the timing God chose to show us:

A throne room without Jesus present;

a throne room WITH the Holy Spirit present;

A search for one worthy that ended in failure.

These are facts straight from the text.  Now, perhaps you can come up with a different answer to these three truths, different that what Jesus taught me. I still think the very best explanation is that it shows TIMING: a time before Jesus rose from the dead, to His rising and then His ascension.  Perhaps you can convince someone else of a different answer. 

Therefore my theory is NOT allegorical.  It is just different than yours. As for 1:1, "shortly" to God is certainly not shortly to us! Where do you imaging the visions John saw came from, if NOT from Jesus Christ, or God the Father? OF COURSE they came from God! Without a doubt, angels were involved with what John saw and heard, but it is just as sure that JESUS was involved also. 

What you are doing here is working hard trying to disprove TRUTH. Good luck! 

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

I could rephrase it: 

New Living Translation  Then as I looked, 

English Standard Version  After this I looked,

Berean Study Bible  After this I looked 

Good News Translation  At this point I had another vision

Holman Christian Standard Bible  After this I looked, 

Weymouth New Testament  After all this I looked

 

I suppose you could, but 4 of those 6 references all have "after this" which is the equivalent of "after these things".  And the back end of the verse amplifies the front end.  You are cherry picking.

I will start with Dr. Kenneth Wuest, a well known and respected Greek scholar and his translation......

Revelation 4:1 (Wuest - The New Testament: An Expanded Translation) After these things I saw, and consider this, a door in heaven that had been opened and now stood open, and the voice, the first one that I heard, which was like a trumpet, breaking silence and engaging me in conversation, saying, Come up here at once, and I will show you things which must of the necessity in the nature of the case take place after these things.

And also several from some very literal, established translations.  Not the dynamic equivalence stuff like the Good News, New Living translation, etc.  Those dynamic equivalence versions you referenced are great arm chair reading, but they are hardly anything close to being solid bible study translations.   One must also look at the entire verse if one wants to get the bigger picture.

Tree of Life Version   Revelation 4:1 (TLV) After these things I looked, and behold, a door was standing open in heaven. And the first voice, which I had heard speaking with me like a trumpet, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things."

International Standard Versions  Revelation 4:1 (ISV) After these things I saw a door standing open in heaven. The first voice that I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after this.”

Young's Literal Translation  Revelation 4:1 (YLT) After these things I saw, and lo, a door opened in the heaven, and the first voice that I heard [is] as of a trumpet speaking with me, saying, `Come up hither, and I will shew thee what it behoveth to come to pass after these things;'

Green's Literal Translation   Revelation 4:1 (LITV) After these things I saw. And behold, a door being opened in Heaven! And I heard the first voice as a trumpet speaking with me, saying, Come up here, and I will show you what needs to happen after these things.

New American Standard Version  Revelation 4:1 (NASB) After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”

If you had a little bit of knowledge of Biblical Hebrew eschatology, you would see much more in that verse.  A "door opened" is a veiled reference to Yom Teruah (feast of trumpets) and the "voice as/like a trumpet" amplifies that.  A "door opened" is also a reference to Isaiah 26:2, which that chapter is a end times chapter.  It is the first of the fall feast days and the one that is a two day feast and the only one that falls on the first of the month.  The first of the month can only be determined when two or more witnesses confirm a new moon.  That is why Yom Teruah is called "the day that no man knows".   Compare that to.....

Matthew 24:36 (NKJV) “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

Mark 13:32 (NKJV) “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

I think you might want to hit the books just a little bit more.  Revelation 4:1 is so rich and vibrant with references that it a major bible study all its own.  But then, Revelation is 404 verses with over 800 references to the OT.   But the fact still remains. The verse is stating the events that follow, including all the seals, are after those things which came before, namely, the Churches.

I know it is a supporting text for a pre-trib eschatology and that is why some folks just have a difficult time with it and try to twist it into somewhat of pretzel and make it mean something that it doesn't.  But then, just as Sir Isaac Newton implied 400 years ago in his expositional writings on scripture, a literal interpretation of the scripture will come under heavy attack in the end days. 

Edited October 3, 2018 by OldCoot

[iamlamad]

57 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

I suppose you could, but 4 of those 6 references all have "after this" which is the equivalent of "after these things".  And the back end of the verse amplifies the front end.  You are cherry picking.

I will start with Dr. Kenneth Wuest, a well known and respected Greek scholar and his translation......

Revelation 4:1 (Wuest - The New Testament: An Expanded Translation) After these things I saw, and consider this, a door in heaven that had been opened and now stood open, and the voice, the first one that I heard, which was like a trumpet, breaking silence and engaging me in conversation, saying, Come up here at once, and I will show you things which must of the necessity in the nature of the case take place after these things.

And also several from some very literal, established translations.  Not the dynamic equivalence stuff like the Good News, New Living translation, etc.  Those dynamic equivalence versions you referenced are great arm chair reading, but they are hardly anything close to being solid bible study translations.   One must also look at the entire verse if one wants to get the bigger picture.

Tree of Life Version   Revelation 4:1 (TLV) After these things I looked, and behold, a door was standing open in heaven. And the first voice, which I had heard speaking with me like a trumpet, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things."

International Standard Versions  Revelation 4:1 (ISV) After these things I saw a door standing open in heaven. The first voice that I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after this.”

Young's Literal Translation  Revelation 4:1 (YLT) After these things I saw, and lo, a door opened in the heaven, and the first voice that I heard [is] as of a trumpet speaking with me, saying, `Come up hither, and I will shew thee what it behoveth to come to pass after these things;'

Green's Literal Translation   Revelation 4:1 (LITV) After these things I saw. And behold, a door being opened in Heaven! And I heard the first voice as a trumpet speaking with me, saying, Come up here, and I will show you what needs to happen after these things.

New American Standard Version  Revelation 4:1 (NASB) After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”

If you had a little bit of knowledge of Biblical Hebrew eschatology, you would see much more in that verse.  A "door opened" is a reference to Yom Teruah (feast of trumpets) and the "voice as/like a trumpet" amplifies that.  It is the first of the fall feast days and the one that is a two day feast and the only one that falls on the first of the month.  The first of the month can only be determined when two or more witnesses confirm a new moon.  That is why Yom Teruah is called "the day that no man knows".   Compare that to.....

Matthew 24:36 (NKJV) “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

Mark 13:32 (NKJV) “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

I think you might want to hit the books just a little bit more.  Revelation 4:1 is so rich and vibrant with references that it a major bible study all its own.  But the fact still remains. The verse is stating the events that follow, including all the seals, are after those things which came before, namely, the Churches.

No matter how it is translated, what it is AFTER? It is after God told John to write to 7 churches which were active at that time. SO in your argument, it would after 95 AD. The question is, is that the intent of the Author? 

So did John write ANYTHING that was to "take place after" He wrote to the churches - circa 95 AD? 

7 trumpets, 3 woes, 7 thunders, 7 vials.....Yes, I would say John fulfilled writing about things that took place AFTER 95 AD. They are still future to us!  Therefore God DID show John things that must happen AFTER John wrote to the churches.  So what is the problem? 

God CHOSE to show John the book in the FAther's hands, and how that book had 7 seals, and how those seals were to be opened so that the book could be opened. In doing that, God showed John the part of that scenario that had already passed in 95 AD: Jesus ad already risen around 60 years previous, so if God was to show John the book still in the Father's hands, HE MUST THEN show some history to John - and that is exactly what He did. 

Why fight what is clearly shown? Just because you have heard or learned something different? You can change! READ THE TEXT!  You can TRY to place Jesus into the throne room in chapter 4 - others here have tried. But they are ADDING to the book!  The truth is, Jesus was not there - but showed up later in chapter 5. 

Take careful note that John did NOT write, "I will show you  ONLY what must take place after these things. Search for all you want, there is no "only" in that sentence - which leaves God free to include History if He chose - which He did. 

Sorry, a door opened is EXACTLY what John saw and what He wrote. He did not describe that door! He only mentioned it. It was a door for HIM to pass through. You might say it was God's invitation to John to come up.  Sorry again, but John is only describing what the voice sounded like. Don't read into it what is not there. Was it REALLY the feast of trumpets when John was called up? If so, why didn't John tell us? All he told us is that it was SUNDAY, the Lord's day.  

Sorry, but John is only telling us that a door was opened. I think God can open a door without it signifying the Feast of trumpets! 

I know where you are going, but you are mistaken: the rapture is not in ANY WAY associated with John going to heaven. Sorry, but I don't buy it. All the other "tribbers" recognize that theory as very sloppy exegesis. They all know it was God calling JOHN up to heaven, around 95 AD. 

You can attempt to add 2000 years to John's narrative, but it won't work: you will be ADDING to the book, and that is a no no. 

Let's just let the text say what it says: Jesus was not in the throne room. The Holy Spirit was. And "no man was found." these are clues to the intent of the Author. You wish to ignore them in favor of preconceived theories that don't fit. 

Sorry, but I will take HIS WORDS over yours. 

Edited October 3, 2018 by iamlamad

[OldCoot]

7 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

No matter how it is translated, what it is AFTER?

Are you really serious or just trying to be obnoxious?   The basic grammatical structure implies that "after these things" are the "things" that came before that verse.  And what was described in those verses before that verse?   THE CHURCHES.   

the operative is "these things" which is a plural construct.  You are saying that a singular construct is in view by you saying after what God told John to write.  And God didn't tell John what to write.  God gave this information to Yeshua, Yeshua gave it to an angel, and the angel told John what to write.   Again, you just exhibit how you don't have good reading comprehension.  Re-read Revelation 1:1.

Man, I bet your teachers really went home every day with a headache after having you in their classroom.   General Russel Honore had you in mind when he made his famous quote.

Edited October 3, 2018 by OldCoot

[iamlamad]

17 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Are you really serious or just trying to be obnoxious?   The basic grammatical structure implies that "after these things" are the "things" that came before that verse.  And what was described in those verses before that verse?   THE CHURCHES.   

the operative is "these things" which is a plural construct.  You are saying that a singular construct is in view by you saying after what God told John to write.  And God didn't tell John what to write.  God gave this information to Yeshua, Yeshua gave it to an angel, and the angel told John what to write.   Again, you just exhibit how you don't have good reading comprehension.  Re-read Revelation 1:1.

Man, I bet your teachers really went home every day with a headache after having you in their classroom.   General Russel Honore had you in mind when he made his famous quote.

I am certainly a stickler for not reading into a verse what is not there. I am not trying to be obnoxious. I am teaching truth and you are rejecting it, preferring preconceptions over what is actually written. 

If you wish to take it litterally, then John was called up to heaven after He received the messages for the churches. You can IMAGINE it means after the church age, but it will be TOTAL imagination because you cannot get that from the text. 

Have you looked up all 6 of these phrases and tried to see if your theory holds for all six?

Revelation 7:1

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

 

What, for example, is this AFTER? 

 

Revelation 7:9

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

 

Did this great crowd really arrive in heaven AFTER the sealing of the 144,000? Or is it just that John SAW them after?

 

Revelation 15:5

And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

 

Revelation 18:1

And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

 

Revelation 19:1

And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

 

YOu see, the REAL meaning, and the intent of the author is that John used these phrases as a transitional phrase to get from one part of the vision to another. That is all it means. AFTER John saw one thing, He saw something different. It is very very simple. 

 

John probably HEARD what to write to the churches. Then, AFTER that, God wanted to show John something else - so John wrote this transitional phrase. I can assure you it does NOT mean, "after the church age." that is extremely poor exegesis. 

 

THE CHURCHES.    No, NOT "the churches" but MESSAGES to the churches. Messages that had MEANING to those that first read it - circa 95 AD. 

 

God gave this information to Yeshua, Yeshua gave it to an angel, and the angel told John what to write.  This may well be true for the messages to the churches, but in chapter 4 God is going to give John VISIONS. 

 

³ And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

⁴ And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

John is SEEING A VISION! Do you imagine an angel is creating this vision, or God Himself? 

Try reading 1:2:

² Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

 

There are angels all through the book, but John is seeing VISIONS created by God Himself. Sometimes Angels get involved. Sometimes the 4 Beasts get involved. 

 

It is not so much the teaching, if it is truth, but students that resist the truth that give teachers headaches! 

 

By the way, have you come up with another explanation as to WHY Jesus was not seen in the throne room, but showed up later?

Any idea why Jesus was NOT found in that first search? Can you explain why the Holy Spirit was there when He should have already been sent down? How long are you going to ignore the facts and create a theory from preconceptions?

Edited October 3, 2018 by iamlamad

[OldCoot]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

By the way, have you come up with another explanation as to WHY Jesus was not seen in the throne room, but showed up later?

The passage does not say that Yeshua was not at the throne and then was.  You are imposing the idea on the text that He wasn't there when it does not state that.  The passage only says that He was in the midst of the throne and the four living creatures.  It is pure supposition without supporting text to suggest that He wasn't there and then was.  

Again, you are coming at the text with a presupposition that you have come up with or been taught and avoiding the plain sense of the text.  You really need to look at such passages as a lawyer or detective would view evidence or testimony.  You need to try and dust off your memory and try to take hold of what many are taught in middle or high school about diagraming sentences and grammatical structure.   God never expects us to check our brain at the door when we put our trust in Him.  

So, to answer your question... NO.  I have not come up with another explanation about WHY Yeshua was not there in the throne room but showed up later.  That is because, from the text, there is no indication He wasn't there.  Only that John did not see Him.  Again, think like a lawyer or detective and listen (or read in this case) to what is actually being said and not what you think is being said.

So, the better question might be, why didn't John see Him?  I would suggest that, again from the text, John was looking for a man in heaven or on earth  But when Yeshua came forth, He appeared to John as the lamb that had been slain (Rev 5:6).  John probably wasn't expecting that.  I am not sure that John realized that Yeshua would appear in Heaven like the beat up, pierced, whipped, bruised, battered Yeshua He knew on earth.  Remember the OT text....

Isaiah 52:14 (NKJV) Just as many were astonished at you,
So His visage was marred more than any man,
And His form more than the sons of men;

And likewise, I think we all will be shocked at how Yeshua appears when we see Him.  It is probably the main reason we will all fall down before Him.  We will fully see and realize what He gave up to redeem us, we will see the scars and wounds, and we  will see Him that way for all of eternity.  No more will the paintings we have been exposed to here of the neat wavy haired blue eyed Jesus be in our mind.  Isaiah even told us his beard was ripped off His face.  Even Mel Gibson didn't get that right in The Passion.  Psalms 22 is pretty graphic as well.  I don't think that many people fully realize the level of butchery that Yeshua underwent.  It was more than even Gibson could put on a screen.

And, we will see Him as He is... 1 John 3:2.  Like the lamb who was slain for our redemption.  

Regarding the HS being there and not sent down.  Again you are being pretty darn restrictive.  The Holy Spirit isn't a body. The HS is not a force like in Star Wars.  The Holy Spirit is a person and is omnipresent everywhere.  Even when He no longer restrains so that the AC can make his appearance (2 Thessalonians 2:7), He is still at work.  No one can be drawn to Yeshua without the nudging of the HS.  So while He will not be restraining evil, He will still be hard at work as evidenced that some will come to faith during the GT period.

It is like a offensive line who protects the quarterback on a football field.  The HS will just step aside and allow the opposition to plow on thru, but the HS will still be on the field. 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2018 by OldCoot
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[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, OldCoot said:

The passage does not say that Yeshua was not at the throne and then was.  You are imposing the idea on the text that He wasn't there when it does not state that.  The passage only says that He was in the midst of the throne and the four living creatures.  It is pure supposition without supporting text to suggest that He wasn't there and then was.  

Again, you are coming at the text with a presupposition that you have come up with or been taught and avoiding the plain sense of the text.  You really need to look at such passages as a lawyer or detective would view evidence or testimony.  You need to try and dust off your memory and try to take hold of what many are taught in middle or high school about diagraming sentences and grammatical structure.   God never expects us to check our brain at the door when we put our trust in Him.  

So, to answer your question... NO.  I have not come up with another explanation about WHY Yeshua was not there in the throne room but showed up later.  That is because, from the text, there is no indication He wasn't there.  Only that John did not see Him.  Again, think like a lawyer or detective and listen (or read in this case) to what is actually being said and not what you think is being said.

So, the better question might be, why didn't John see Him?  I would suggest that, again from the text, John was looking for a man in heaven or on earth  But when Yeshua came forth, He appeared to John as the lamb that had been slain (Rev 5:6).  John probably wasn't expecting that.  I am not sure that John realized that Yeshua would appear in Heaven like the beat up, pierced, whipped, bruised, battered Yeshua He knew on earth.  Remember the OT text....

Isaiah 52:14 (NKJV) Just as many were astonished at you,
So His visage was marred more than any man,
And His form more than the sons of men;

And likewise, I think we all will be shocked at how Yeshua appears when we see Him.  It is probably the main reason we will all fall down before Him.  We will fully see and realize what He gave up to redeem us, we will see the scars and wounds, and we  will see Him that way for all of eternity.  No more will the paintings we have been exposed to here of the neat wavy haired blue eyed Jesus be in our mind.  Isaiah even told us his beard was ripped off His face.  Even Mel Gibson didn't get that right in The Passion.  Psalms 22 is pretty graphic as well.  I don't think that many people fully realize the level of butchery that Yeshua underwent.  It was more than even Gibson could put on a screen.

And, we will see Him as He is... 1 John 3:2.  Like the lamb who was slain for our redemption.  

Regarding the HS being there and not sent down.  Again you are being pretty darn restrictive.  The Holy Spirit isn't a body. The HS is not a force like in Star Wars.  The Holy Spirit is a person and is omnipresent everywhere.  Even when He no longer restrains so that the AC can make his appearance (2 Thessalonians 2:7), He is still at work.  No one can be drawn to Yeshua without the nudging of the HS.  So while He will not be restraining evil, He will still be hard at work as evidenced that some will come to faith during the GT period.

It is like a offensive line who protects the quarterback on a football field.  The HS will just step aside and allow the opposition to plow on thru, but the HS will still be on the field. 

Well, suppose you show us the verse in chapter 4, where Jesus is there at the right hand of the father, where many verses show us that is where He went to be - and where Stephen SAW Him. Since you are so sure He was there, it should be easy to show us the verse. 

If He was there, John would have seen Him! How could John miss the Son of the Most High God?  In fact, Jesus Christ, the head of the church, the Son of God, ASKED Me why He was NOT there in chapter 4. I think He should know if He was there or not. I thought it was a good question. I could not at first answer it.  You speak of lawyers: they follow clues: but you wish to ignore them and use preconceptions.  The very plain sense of the Text is that HE was NOT THERE in chapter 4. 

This is further proven because in that first search for one worthy, "NO MAN was found." This was the second question Jesus asked me: "Why was I not found in that first search John watched that ended in failure?"  Again I could not at first answer. There is a very good reason WHY He was not found in that search.

You are jumping ahead to chapter 5, without answering why Jesus was not seen in the throne room of chapter 4. When Jesus was teaching me, the very first thing He said about these two chapters is that "they show timing." Next, He said, "they show the movement of time." There is a TIME DIFFERENCE between some of these verses - for example when John first looked into the throne room and Jesus was NOT there, to the time Jesus suddenly appeared there in chapter 4. Another is the two different searches for one worthy to take the book and open the seals. 

I will tell you another thing Jesus said to me, because it fits anyone who studies these two chapters:  "Until you can answer these questions correctly you will never understand this part of John's vision." There is a very good reason why Jesus was not seen in the throne room in chapter 4. That is a very good reason why the Holy Spirit was not yet sent down in chapter 4. there was a very good reason why "no man was found" in the first search.  The question is, are you interested in learning, or are your preconceptions too strong? 

Say what you want about the Holy Spirit, but DO please read?  " there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God."  John apparently SAW this. Is the Holy Spirit visible? Perhaps God gave John something to see to represent the Holy Spirit.  Then in chapter 5:  "having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God..." And here He was sent down. The picture God is giving us is that He was there to a certain point, and then later sent down. It is just one more clue. 

You will have to understand, Jesus Christ, the head of the church spent TIME with me, teaching me HIS INTENT on these two chapters. And you are trying to teach me who knows what - certainly not what HE taught me. Sorry, but I am going to take His word over yours. After all, He was the one that was showing John the vision: I think He knew what His intent was. 

Now you have a choice: you can ignore the questions and continue on with your preconceived theories - that don't fit -  or you can be teachable. I will say this: it is VERY hard to learn when you already think you know.  At least you should ask yourself, is it even remotely possible that what I have written is actually the intent of the Author? Is it possible Jesus was NOT there when John first looked into the throne room - because this vision was of a time when He was still on the earth? Is it even remotely possible that the reason "no man was found" in that first search is because of timing - Jesus had not yet risen from the dead? Is it possible the Holy Spirit was there simply because Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down?