What is the doctrine of the Trinity?

[HAZARD]

16 hours ago, Ezra said:

Since you have quoted this, it perfectly reflects what I said. That the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are ONE God is indeed a Divine mystery.

No, really, its not a divine mystery at all. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three separate being who are "ONE" only in unity., not body.

Just like Jesus asked the Father to make Him one, in unity with His disciples. Jesus never asked the Father to make Him and the disciples "ONE," 

Jesus asked the Father to make them one, in Unity in all things. He and the Father were, not one in body. 

John 17: 18, As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
    19, And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified1 through the truth.
    20, Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    21, That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
    22, And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
    23, I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
    24, Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
    25, O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
   

[missmuffet]

1 hour ago, CaringBrit said:

thankyou for posting this , i myself have never got confused with the trinity this is however very informative 

i agree it is by faith that we believe

that is true we need all 3 

thankyou for posting the pic

i loved the peanut theory too thanks omega

You are welcome

[TrevorL]

The following is a few extracts from a book “History of the Dogma of the Deity of Christ" by A Reville, a French Professor of the History of Religion, written in 1904 and translated into English in 1905. I thought this might be of interest showing the development from a belief that Jesus was a man, the Son of God to the belief that Jesus was God the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity. These extracts also show some of the principal influences that caused this development. There are other more modern resources on this subject, but the following brief survey of some of the trends may be sufficient.

Page 4: The maxim of Vincent de Leyrins, more boastful than true, ‘the Church, when it employs new terms, never says anything new’, influenced the entire history of Christianity; philosophers and submissive believers were equally satisfied with it.

After a brief summary of the doctrine of the Trinity he says:
Page 9: Such is the doctrine which, having been slowly elaborated, arrived at supremacy in the Christian Church towards the end of the fifth century, and which, after continuing undisputed, excepting in connection with some obscure heresies, for eleven centuries, has been gradually from the sixteenth century losing its prestige, although it is still the professed belief of the majority of Christians.

Page 10: … the religious sentiment … is not in the least alarmed at contradictions; on the contrary, there are times when it might be said that it seeks and delights in them. They seem to strengthen the impression of mystery, an attitude which belongs to every object of adoration.

Speaking of the developments in the second century:
Page 54: … the ‘celestial being’ increasingly supplanted the human being, except among the Jewish-Christians of the primitive type … These firmly maintained the opinion that Jesus was a man, … fully inspired by God … admitted his miraculous conception.

Page 59: The Platonists began to furnish brilliant recruits to the churches of Asia and Greece, and introduced among them their love of system and their idealism. To state the facts in a few words, Hellenism insensibly supplanted Judaism as the form of Christian thought, and to this is mainly owing the orthodox dogma of the deity of Jesus Christ.

Page 60: Hence the rapidity with which a philosphical doctrine of much earlier origin than Christianity, and at first foreign to the Church, was brought into it, and adapted itself so completely to the prevailing Christology as to become identical therewith, and to pass for the belief which had been professed by the disciples from the beginning.

Page 96: There were some Jewish-Christians who admitted without difficulty the miraculous birth of Jesus, but would not hear of his pre-existence.

Page 105: It is curious to read the incredible subtleties by which Athanasius and the orthodox theologians strove to remove the stumbling-block from the history of a dogma which they desired to represent as having been invariable and complete since the earliest days.

Page 108-109: … the minds of men … either inclined to lay great stress upon the subordination of the Son, in order to keep as close as possible to the facts of Gospel history, or they dwelt strongly upon his divinity, in order to satisfy an ardent piety, which felt as if it could not exalt Christ too highly. From this sprang two doctrines, that of Arius and of Athanasius. In reality, though under other forms, it was a renewal of the struggle between rationalism and mysticism.

Page 115: In reality, Arius, whose character and doctrine have been unjustly vilified by orthodox historians, was stating the ecclesiastical doctrine that had been in common acceptance.

Speaking of the Nicene Creed:
Page 121: … the majority of the council would have preferred a middle course, maintaining the traditional idea of the subordination of the Son to the Father, while ascribing to the Son as much divine attributes as they could without openly passing this limit.
Page 124: Arianism, which had been overcome by the imperial will more than by the free judgement of the bishops, retained its power in the churches.
Page 126: People did not believe at that period in the infallibility of councils. The West alone remained firm in adhesion to the faith of Nicea.

Page 136: The Arian party, representing as it did the opposition to ecclesiastical authority and dogmatising mysticism, was the party generally preferred by the freer minds. It was consequently the least united. For the same reason was it the most opposed to the ascetic, monkish, and superstitious customs which more and more pervaded the church.

 

 

The adoption or acceptance of the Nicene Creed was by no means unanimous, and many areas of “Christendom” continued to reject this creed. As well as those that opposed the Nicene Creed there were some faithful individuals who continued also to believe in the Apostolic faith that there is one God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

[FresnoJoe]

7 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

In the Bible, the word "mystery" tends to refer to things formerly unknown, but now revealed.

Crystal Clear~!

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

[Ezra]

7 hours ago, HAZARD said:

No, really, its not a divine mystery at all. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three separate being who are "ONE" only in unity., not body.

Not merely one in unity, and definitely not one in body, but one in substance (as per the creeds) or essence. Thus Jesus said that He was in the Father and the Father was in Him, and at the same time that He and the Father were One, and anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father.

Thus the term *Godhead* which is distinct from *God*, and yet equivalent to *God*.   To assert that this is NOT a mystery would be presumptuous, since no man can understand how three Divine Persons can be distinct, yet one God.

Therefore some falsely speak of Tritheism, but Christians are Monotheists. While the modern Bible versions have expunged 1 John 5:7, it is genuine Scripture and expresses the truth about the Trinity very succinctly in the Authorized Version (also found in the Catholic Douay-Rheims Version) and the Latin Vulgate.

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (KJB)

And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one. (DRV)

Quoniam tres sunt, qui testimonium dant in caelo: Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus Sanctus: et hi tres unum sunt.

[TrevorL]

42 minutes ago, Ezra said:

While the modern Bible versions have expunged 1 John 5:7, it is genuine Scripture and expresses the truth about the Trinity very succinctly in the Authorized Version (also found in the Catholic Douay-Rheims Version) and the Latin Vulgate.

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (KJB)

And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one. (DRV)

Greetings again Ezra,

 

There are a number of Trinitarians who quote the KJV of 1 John 5:7 in support of the Trinity, even though it is recognised by most scholars as spurious. The following is the KJV, and in contrast consider the NIV, NASB95, RSV and ASV. Each of these more modern translations simply omit the portion of 1 John 5:7-8 that is often used to support the Trinity.
1 John 5:7-8 (KJV): 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
1 John 5:7-8 (NIV): 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
1 John 5:7-8 (NASB95): 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
1 John 5:7-8 (RSV): 7 And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth. 8 There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree.
1 John 5:7-8 (ASV): 7And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth. 8For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.

The following are a few of the explanations in readily available commentaries, and even though it is most probable that each of these are written by Trinitarians, they do not support the KJV of 1 John 5:7-8:

 

KJV Bible commentary: The rest of verse 7 and the first nine words of verse 8 are not original, and are not to be considered as a part of the Word of God (refer to the marginal notes in any reference Bible).

Believer’s Bible commentary: It always disturbs some devout Christians to learn that parts of verses 7, 8, as found in the KJV and NKJV, are actually found in only a handful of Greek manuscripts of the NT. But this does not at all affect the truth of the inspiration of the Scriptures. Some people think it is important to retain the words because they mention the three Persons of the Trinity.
Erasmus added these words to later editions of his Greek NT under pressure from the pope (they occur in the official Roman Catholic Latin Bible, the Vulgate). Only four very late Greek mss. have these words, so it is unsafe to use them.

Word Biblical commentary: The earliest of these Gr. witnesses, all of which depend on an earlier Latin tradition, can be dated to the twelfth century. The Old Latin is the only ancient version to include the words, and then with variations between the MSS; but, although the evidence is not entirely clear, the passage seems to be unknown in these texts before the eighth century. It does not appear in Jerome’s definitive edition of the Vg (circa A.D. 404), even if some other MSS of the Vg contain the addition. The earliest extrabiblical writer to show knowledge of the section is the Spanish heretic Priscillian (who died circa A.D. 385), when quoting from this part of John in his Latin “Book of Apology” (Liber Apologeticus). None of the Greek Fathers quotes the words. Despite this slight MSS attestation the inclusion remained in the Vg and also survived in the AV In most modern translations the words have disappeared from the text altogether.
The section, which in any case interrupts the thought of the passage, is clearly an interpolation. Presumably it represents an attempt on the part of those who, in the third and fourth centuries, were preoccupied with understanding the doctrine of the Trinity, to explain this text in a trinitarian manner. What may have begun life as a marginal gloss in a Latin MSS then became incorporated in the text, and was eventually translated back into Gr. in some Gr. MSS

Adam Clarke’s commentary: But it is likely this verse is not genuine. It is wanting in every MS. of this epistle written before the invention of printing, one excepted, the Codex Montfortii, in Trinity College, Dublin: the others which omit this verse amount to one hundred and twelve.
It is wanting in both the Syriac, all the Arabic, Ethiopic, the Coptic, Sahidic, Armenian, Slavonian, etc., in a word, in all the ancient versions but the Vulgate; and even of this version many of the most ancient and correct MSS. have it not. It is wanting also in all the ancient Greek fathers; and in most even of the Latin.

Barnes’ Notes on the NT: There is no passage of the New Testament which has given rise to so much discussion in regard to its genuineness as this. The supposed importance of the verse in its bearing on the doctrine of the Trinity has contributed to this, and has given to the discussion a degree of consequence which has pertained to the examination of the genuineness of no other passage of the New Testament. On the one hand, the clear testimony which it seems to bear to the doctrine of the Trinity, has made that portion of the Christian church which holds the doctrine reluctant in the highest degree to abandon it; and on the other hand, the same clearness of the testimony to that doctrine, has made those who deny it not less reluctant to admit the genuineness of the passage.
It is not consistent with the design of these notes to go into a full investigation of a question of this sort. And all that can be done is to state, in a brief way, the “results” which have been reached, in an examination of the question. Those who are disposed to pursue the investigation further, can find all that is to be said in the works referred to at the bottom of the page. The portion of the passage, in 1 John 5:7-8, whose genuineness is disputed, is included in brackets in the following quotation, as it stands in the common editions of the New Testament:
“For there are three that bear record (in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth,) the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one.” If the disputed passage, therefore, be omitted as spurious, the whole passage will read, “For there are three that bear record, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one.” The reasons which seem to me to prove that the passage included in brackets is spurious, and should not be regarded as a part of the inspired writings, are briefly the following:
[Barnes then lists extensive reasons for rejecting what he considers to be a spurious portion. I will not add this to this Post, but his explanations are the most thorough of all the above commentaries].

 

The following translations could also be added to the list: NEB, ESV, Jerusalem Bible (Catholic), New Jerusalem Bible (Catholic), Rotherham.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[other one]

5 hours ago, Ezra said:

e who had seen Him had seen the Father.

Thus the term *Godhead* which is distinct from *God*, and yet equivalent to *God*.   To assert that this is NOT a mystery would be presumptuous, since no man can understand how three Divine Persons can be distinct, yet one God.

 

es·sence

ˈesəns/

noun

Philosophy

a property or group of properties of something without which it would not exist or be what it is.

 

I think the definition of this word should solve the mystery of it.

We need all three of the trinity, or they would not be what they are.   At least we lowly creatures would not have access to them if any of them were not there.   The Father is there and He is who he is......   but without the things that Jesus has done, we could never know Him.....   without the Holy Spirit we would have no access to either the Father or Jesus unless he came back down here..

The other problem is that we tend to associate the word "god" with a single being and our God is not a single being, but a trio of beings that are one in essence......    and the only difference in God and god in respect to the word is that we add the "G" to show respect to what we consider God.

 

It's not really a mystery.    Without Jesus and the Holy Spirit, the Father would be no more to us than a mental Idol.  Unreachable, unknowable and then He would be a real mystery.

[TrevorL]

There is a range of views amongst Trinitarians, but some feel challenged by the lack of evidence in the OT to support their view. They seek some passage to support their view that “God is a multi-Person God” or some similar expression. Some use Genesis 1:26-27 for this purpose. I would like to briefly comment on this passage in anticipation, and at the same time attempt to clarify the meaning of the word Elohim as used in this passage.
Genesis 1:26-27 (KJV): 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Some Trinitarians point to the fact that v26 speaks in the plural, while v27 speaks in the singular. My understanding of this is that God the Father, the Lord of Heaven and Earth, the Creator, invites the participation of the angels in the creation of man after God’s and the angel’s image and likeness. Although the angels participate, v27 says that it is God Himself that has created man, because it is by His wisdom, power and initiative man has been created. We use an expression that a particular architect built an important building, but this in effect summarises the whole process with many designers and detailers and important workers and administrators contributing to the final result.

David comments and interprets the creation record in the following, and this shows that the angels were involved in the creation of man.
Psalm 8:4-6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
The phrase a little lower than the angels correctly summarises Genesis 1:26. Man was made after the image and likeness of God and the angels, and hence lower than the angels. It will only be after man’s probation and exaltation that man will be made equal to the angels. Jesus on the other hand, although made lower than the angels, has been after his death and resurrection exalted above the angels.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

Edited June 5, 2016 by TrevorL

[HAZARD]

15 hours ago, Ezra said:

Not merely one in unity, and definitely not one in body, but one in substance (as per the creeds) or essence. Thus Jesus said that He was in the Father and the Father was in Him, and at the same time that He and the Father were One, and anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father.

Thus the term *Godhead* which is distinct from *God*, and yet equivalent to *God*.   To assert that this is NOT a mystery would be presumptuous, since no man can understand how three Divine Persons can be distinct, yet one God.

Therefore some falsely speak of Tritheism, but Christians are Monotheists. While the modern Bible versions have expunged 1 John 5:7, it is genuine Scripture and expresses the truth about the Trinity very succinctly in the Authorized Version (also found in the Catholic Douay-Rheims Version) and the Latin Vulgate.

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (KJB)

And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one. (DRV)

Quoniam tres sunt, qui testimonium dant in caelo: Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus Sanctus: et hi tres unum sunt.

As I have said several times on this board, the word Trinity is not mentioned in Scripture one time. The word Godhead is mentioned three times in Scripture.

Act 17:29, Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the  Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Rom 1:20, For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Col 2:9, For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

What does this Scripture teach?

1 John 5:8, And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

1. The Holy Spirit descending upon Jesus at His water baptism. Jesus standing in the water, the Holy Spirit, a separate and distinct being descending upon Jesus in the form of a dove. (Matt.3:13-17).

2. Water baptism symbolizing His own death, burial, and resurrection (Matt. 3:13-17). Water of the Word bearing witness to the incarnation (Isa. 7:14; 9:6-7; Matt. 1:23; Luke 1:34-35). Water and blood at the crucifiction testifying of His humanity (John 19:34).

3. The blood testifying not only the humanity and sonship of Jesus Christ, but guaranteeing redemption from sin (Matt. 26:28; Acts 20:28; Eph. 1:14; Col. 1:20-22; Heb. 9:14-26; 10:1-23; 1 John 1:7).

What is meant by the Godhead is that there are three separate and distinct persons in the Godhead, each one having His own personal spirit body, personal soul, and personal spirit in the same sense each human being, angel, or other beings has his own body, soul, and spirit. We mean by body, whether a spirit body or a flesh and bone body, the house for the indwelling of the personal soul and spirit. The soul is that which feels and the spirit is that which knows.

The doctrine of the Godhead can be seen being understood by the visible things that are made, even to His eternal power and Godhead (Romans 1:20).

What on this earth was created in the image and likeness of God?

Man, (Gen. 1:26-28). Do God's image and likeness consist only of moral and spiritual powers? If so, it can be concluded  that man is only a moral and spiritual being.

Is God bodiless? If so we can conclude that man is also bodiless.

Is God only one being made up of several persons or beings in the one being? If so, we can conclude that man is one person or being made up of many.

Does God need a flesh and bone body in order to have any kind of body?

No! there are such things as spirit and heavenly bodies, see 1 Cor. 15:35-38. From these passages we learn that all things in creation, grain, fish, birds, beasts, man, angels, and even planets have bodies, sizes, shapes, and forms.

The Bible declares that God has a body, shape, image, likeness, bodily parts, a personal soul and spirit, andall other things  that constitute a being or a person with a body, soul, and a spirit.

Angels, cherubim, seraphim, and all other spirit beings have spirit bodies and personal souls and spirits. They have been see with the natural eyes of men (Eg. Heb. 13:2), over 100 times in Scripture. If all other spirit beings have spirit bodies, could not members of the Godhead also have spirit bodies?

The 284 passages on Spirits in Scripture prove that spirit bodies are just a real and capable of operation in the natural worlds  as are flesh and bone beings. There is no such thing as a world of creations made up of invisible substance. The so called spirit world must be understood simply as spirit beings inhabiting material worlds created by God. Heaven itself is a material creation, created by God, (Gen. 1;1; Heb. 11:10-16)., having cities, mansions, furniture, inhabitants, living conditions etc.

God has bee seen bodily by human eyes many times, (Gen. 18:1-33; 19:24; 32:24-30; Ex. 24:11; 33:11-33; Josh. 5:13-15; Judges 6:11-23; 13:3-25; Chr. 21:16-17; Job. 42:5; Isa. 6: Ez. 1:26-28; 10:1, 20; 40:3;  Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-10; Acts 7:56-59; Rev. 4:2-5; 5:1, 5-7, 14:6:16; 7:9-17; 19:4; 21:3-5; 22:4).

In over 20,000 references about God in Scripture we get to know all we need to know about the subject. If we will take the Bible literally as to what I says abput Him, aw we do with other things the subject will bw very clear; but if we make God a mystery, ignore the plain statements  of Scripture about Him, and refuse to believe the many descriptions of God given by those who have seen one, two, and three separate persons called "God," then we will remain in ignorance.

It is true, there are a few figurative statements about God in Scripture, as there are about man and other things, but shall we do away with the reality of man because of these few figures of speech?

Let us make man mere salt and lights (Matt. 5:13-14,  "Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. V. 14, Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid."), if we are going to do away with God because of a few figures of speech.

The word "ONE" means one in unity as well as one in number. It means "Unity" in John 5:7, as it does in John 17:11; 21-23, and yet these three persons, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, are spoken of as one each in number and individuality in Scripture. There is One God the Father, One Lord Jesus Christ, and One Holy Ghost (1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:3-6). Thus there are three separate persons in divine individuality and divine plurality. The Father is called God (1 Cor. 8:6), the Son is called God (Isa. 9:6-7; Heb. 1:8; John 1:1-2; 20:28), and the Holy Spirit is called God (Acts 5:3-4). As individual persons each can be called God and collectively they can be spoken of as one God because of their perfect unity. The word God is used either as a singular or plural word, like SHEEP>

Everything that could be spoken of God collectively applies equally to each member of the Godhead as an individual but there are some things that are said of each person of the Deity as to position, office, and work that could be spoken as of the other members of the Godhead. The Father is the head of Christ (1 Cor. 11:3); the Son is the only begotten of the Father (2 John 3), and the Holy Ghost proceeds from both the Father and the Son (John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15; Acts 2:34).

 

 

[seabrook]

On 6/2/2016 at 5:10 PM, Ezra said:

Hazard,

I am in full agreement with you except that the term "the Mystery of God" appears in Scripture several times because ultimately the triune Godhead is a mystery to the human mind. We can still believe what is revealed.

Thanks.  Good point!