Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[Ezra]

On 5/22/2016 at 2:49 PM, ENOCH2010 said:

Saying the seals and trumpets contain the wrath of God is only your opinion, which is not in the Bible.

Revelation is quite clear that the sixth and seventh seals contain the wrath of God.  It is definitely not an opinion. They correspond to the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation. The seven trumpet judgement are within the seventh seal, and the seven vials/bowls of wrath are within the seventh trumpet judgment.

[Last Daze]

23 hours ago, WilliamL said:

 

Rev. 6:17 For the great day of His wrath came/is come, and who is able to stand?

This is said after the 6th Seal takes place, before the 1st Trumpet is blown. The trumpets and bowls constitute the period of God's wrath. That wrath technically begins after the 6th Seal, although it seems to be held in abeyance until the 144,000 are sealed, and the great silence in heaven takes place at the 7th Seal. Then fire from the heavenly censer is thrown to the earth (8:5), and the 7 angels with the trumpets are sent forth from heaven, clearly to effect God's wrath upon the earth.

 

 

18 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

If the angles have a trumpet in one hand and a bowl of wrath in the other, I can see how the trumpets could be seen as containing Gods wrath.

Agreed.  There are seven plague angels having seven plagues which bring to bear the wrath of God.  The trumpets and bowls symbolize the beginning and ending of the plagues respectively.

[n2thelight]

Quote

That  begs the question: "How can Christ come WITH His saints if they are on the earth at His Second coming, and when the Bible calls them the armies which were in Heaven?"  And the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the answer.

The saints that return with Christ are all those that have died in Him...Example the prophets and the apostles.Those alive at that time(2nd coming)will be changed to how those coming back already are.

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

What's the subject?

Those who have died.

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

[Diaste]

On 5/21/2016 at 4:45 AM, shiloh357 said:

I have run along post tribbers and those who don't believe in ANY rapture scenario and after talking to them, I am amazed at how it almost seems like they WANT to go through the tribulation.

The tribulation will have unimaginable horrors and demonic activity that we have never seen before and have no point of reference for. Why would anyone want to go through that?

I don't think any one 'wants' to go through 'great tribulation'. Even Jesus asked, "...let this cup pass from me." For those who enter this time it's inevitable. Our Father told us this would occur, what it's for, and how it would end, and even generally when it would end. If we simply trust in God we will make it to that end no matter the circumstances.

[Diaste]

On 5/21/2016 at 0:02 AM, Ezra said:

Which is also imminent.

Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. (Mt 25:13).

What does the doctrine of Imminence say exactly? 

[Last Daze]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't think any one 'wants' to go through 'great tribulation'. Even Jesus asked, "...let this cup pass from me." For those who enter this time it's inevitable. Our Father told us this would occur, what it's for, and how it would end, and even generally when it would end. If we simply trust in God we will make it to that end no matter the circumstances.

I agree.  People should want to know the truth, regardless if it winds up being favorable or unfavorable.  If it winds up being unfavorable, at least you know what to prepare for.  There's nothing to be gained from rejecting truth.

When pretribbers accuse postribbers of "wanting to go through the great tribulation" they are just engaging in psychological projection.  They think that because they want pretrib to be true that we also must want posttrib to be true.  I haven't met anyone who "wants" to go through the great tribulation.  I've met several though who realize that its scriptural and are prepared to.  That's a distinction that pretribbers seem to have a difficult time grasping.  Its not a matter of what we want.  It's a matter of what God has declared. 

Five were wise (prepared).  Five were foolish (unprepared).  Its been my experience that the pretrib rapture fallacy tends to foster unpreparedness with its "don't worry, you won't be here for that" message.  I don't see any merit in promoting foolishness.

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I agree.  People should want to know the truth, regardless if it winds up being favorable or unfavorable.  If it winds up being unfavorable, at least you know what to prepare for.  There's nothing to be gained from rejecting truth.

When pretribbers accuse postribbers of "wanting to go through the great tribulation" they are just engaging in psychological projection.  They think that because they want pretrib to be true that we also must want posttrib to be true.  I haven't met anyone who "wants" to go through the great tribulation.  I've met several though who realize that its scriptural and are prepared to.  That's a distinction that pretribbers seem to have a difficult time grasping.  Its not a matter of what we want.  It's a matter of what God has declared. 

Five were wise (prepared).  Five were foolish (unprepared).  Its been my experience that the pretrib rI ahapture fallacy tends to foster unpreparedness with its "don't worry, you won't be here for that" message.  I don't see any merit in promoting foolishness.

I have heard that as well, too many times. One pastor I know personally had a theory about the rapture called the "Pan Theory". His ideas was, "It'll all pan out in the end." I called it cop out. Just like you said, "Nothing gained rejecting truth" and "no merit in promoting foolishness." That's where I have been for many years, it's scriptural, inevitable, and unavoidable. I definitely don't like the idea of living through such a time. Difficult and terrifying doesn't begin to describe it. But I'm resolved to rely on the many great promises of the Father. His Spirit will guide, protect and save us all; even if the whole world burns.

[Last Daze]

34 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I have heard that as well, too many times. One pastor I know personally had a theory about the rapture called the "Pan Theory". His ideas was, "It'll all pan out in the end." I called it cop out. Just like you said, "Nothing gained rejecting truth" and "no merit in promoting foolishness." That's where I have been for many years, it's scriptural, inevitable, and unavoidable. I definitely don't like the idea of living through such a time. Difficult and terrifying doesn't begin to describe it. But I'm resolved to rely on the many great promises of the Father. His Spirit will guide, protect and save us all; even if the whole world burns.

Amen.

[Montana Marv]

23 hours ago, Diaste said:

What does the doctrine of Imminence say exactly? 

Be ready now, not tomorrow, for one does not know what tomorrow will bring.  ALL who are now In Christ already have citizenship in Heaven.  We are just ambassadors here on earth.  Be ready to give an account now, not tomorrow.  Since it is only God the Father who knows when the Bridegroom will be sent, we should all be waiting for this event, NOW.  But, Scripture says this; No, Scripture says that only God the Father Knows.  So which Scripture is accurate.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Diaste]

That's what i'm wondering. And I don't know what you mean when you say,"  Since it is only God the Father who knows when the Bridegroom will be sent, we should all be waiting for this event, NOW.  But, Scripture says this; No, Scripture says that only God the Father Knows. "

?