Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[Marcus O'Reillius]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't think you're going to get a response. The challenge is too great.

It is a challenge, and unfortunately, heartfelt belief can allow great leaps of logic resulting in interpretations which allow the Pre-Trib student to rest assured in their prior conclusion for a departure before it gets really, really bad.

My message in eschatology is: endure patiently, remain steadfast, and keep the faith ~ no matter what!  I do not think we have an easy way out... but I know who wins in the end!

[Last Daze]

8 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

My message in eschatology is: endure patiently, remain steadfast, and keep the faith ~ no matter what!  I do not think we have an easy way out... but I know who wins in the end!

I agree.  Jesus tells us what the signs of His return are for a reason.

• “Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door."  Matthew 24:32-33

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

It is a challenge, and unfortunately, heartfelt belief can allow great leaps of logic resulting in interpretations which allow the Pre-Trib student to rest assured in their prior conclusion for a departure before it gets really, really bad.

My message in eschatology is: endure patiently, remain steadfast, and keep the faith ~ no matter what!  I do not think we have an easy way out... but I know who wins in the end!

Yes. The petrib message is very easy the hear. It's what I was first exposed to when, at the oh so long ago age of 16, I was told Jesus was going to return. It was the first and only scenario I heard. So of course I thought the doctrine was sound. For 20 years after I neither heard nor saw another view. So, fully entrenched in sincere belief I even taught pretrib. But I have character flaws. I'm obsessive, pedantic and an independent thinker. And as crazy as it sounds I kept searching for more info on the exact timing of Jesus' return. The more details I found the less plausible a pretrib rapture seemed. I could not avoid one towering fact that kept cropping up; Jesus return, and all the signs, events and characteristics, and the gathering of the elect are coincidental. Then there was the lack of evidence of an early secret coming. Then upon a re-examination of the tenets of pretrib thought I found conclusions didn't fit the facts(facts are, in fact, sorely lacking). As bad, logic must be suspended for plausibility. 

But I understand vehement adherence. Cognitive dissonance demands dismissing the facts to retain the world view. That's why I switched to logical arguments; facts fall on deaf ears.

I appreciate your posts, btw. Great info. Lots of scripture and sound conclusions. Keep up the good work.

 

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

42 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I appreciate your posts, btw. Great info. Lots of scripture and sound conclusions. Keep up the good work.

Thank you very much.

[Ezra]

12 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

There is a destruction which will be "poured out" on the desolator - but he makes no announcement of differing tribulations.

They are not *different tribulations* but many judgments within Daniel's 70th week (all described in Revelation).  And we must taken all Scriptures into consideration, particularly what is in Revelation.

12 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

He also says that is cut short...

Correct.  But the designated period is 3 1/2 years, which will be shortened by several months.

12 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

So how is it that you equate the two as you so obviously do?

I have not "equated" the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation at all. During the first 3 1/2 years (which are prior to Rev 13) we have the first six trumpet judgments. During the last 3 1/2 years (which follow Rev 13) we have the final trumpet judgment, which is the seven vials of God's wrath. But the entire 7 year period is a period of wrath and judgments (a point which many fail to concede).

It is pretty clear that there is no need to "back into anything".  We simply take all Scriptures into account.

13 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Or is it a necessity of your eschatology that you "back into" this type of interpretation?

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

But I understand vehement adherence. Cognitive dissonance demands dismissing the facts to retain the world view. That's why I switched to logical arguments; facts fall on deaf ears.

My observation concerning eschatology has been that those who prioritize logical arguments are certain to arrive at some version of "post-trib" while those who are driven primarily by emotion favor "pre-trib".

• The pitfall of logical arguments is the tendency to replace preparedness with knowledge, thinking that one is prepared because they "understand."
• The pitfall of emotional reasoning is that the desired outcome takes precedence when a conflict arises.  This limits preparedness since the tendency is to only see the desired outcome as being legitimate.

All human beings have varying levels of emotions and intellect.  That's just how we're made.  Does God favor the intelligent over the emotional or vice versa?  No.  God wants preeminence in our lives.  He wants us to be doers of the word and not hearers only.  All of us can engage in being doers regardless of our levels of intellect or emotion.

Acting on the words of Jesus brings wisdom and those who are wise will be prepared.  Being prepared for the return of Jesus is not a function of intellect or emotion but rather obedience.

[Diaste]

8 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

My observation concerning eschatology has been that those who prioritize logical arguments are certain to arrive at some version of "post-trib" while those who are driven primarily by emotion favor "pre-trib".

• The pitfall of logical arguments is the tendency to replace preparedness with knowledge, thinking that one is prepared because they "understand."
• The pitfall of emotional reasoning is that the desired outcome takes precedence when a conflict arises.  This limits preparedness since the tendency is to only see the desired outcome as being legitimate.

All human beings have varying levels of emotions and intellect.  That's just how we're made.  Does God favor the intelligent over the emotional or vice versa?  No.  God wants preeminence in our lives.  He wants us to be doers of the word and not hearers only.  All of us can engage in being doers regardless of our levels of intellect or emotion.

Acting on the words of Jesus brings wisdom and those who are wise will be prepared.  Being prepared for the return of Jesus is not a function of intellect or emotion but rather obedience.

Good points. I don't disagree. My thoughts are geared more toward opposing a false teaching and how to reach those who believe it. I'm of the opinion that none of us are really going to be prepared when this all gains momentum. From what I see in scripture people with godlike power are going to walk the earth and subdue it. The people of the earth worship the dragon as Rev says. Are they going to see this dragon/Satan person? I suspect so. Are any of us really prepped for that? I doubt any preparation except that of strengthening the mind and spirit will avail much. 

My point about a logical approach in witnessing to the church is twofold.

One, it removes the outcome from consideration.  For two decades I traveled the road of presenting facts and the alternative conclusion. I even tried that here because I can't totally give it up, but it usually gets nowhere. As you point out, for some the desired outcome is all that matters. An introduction of a bit of logic pointing out the internal inconsistencies may give some pause to reconsider.

Two, logical arguments can remove defensive postures. If I am always pointing out my facts and my conclusion I'm the opponent. If I can show a conclusion leads to impossible scenarios that violate a premise I may reach someone and change a mind. An example is believers in the trib. Pretrib argues we are not appointed to wrath, the 70th week is wrath, therefore we do not enter the 70th week. Yet pretrib says there are believers in the trib raptured later. This is impossible as it violates one of the premises of pretrib; we are not appointed to wrath. So either the premise is incorrect or the conclusion is. At least I hope this is good approach, I could be all wrong.

And the whole point is the defense of the Word. False doctrine is false doctrine whether derived from emotion or logic.

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Ezra said:

 

I have not "equated" the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation at all. During the first 3 1/2 years (which are prior to Rev 13) we have the first six trumpet judgments. During the last 3 1/2 years (which follow Rev 13) we have the final trumpet judgment, which is the seven vials of God's wrath. But the entire 7 year period is a period of wrath and judgments (a point which many fail to concede).

 

The first couple sentences need a bit of support. Where in scripture are you seeing the verses leading to the conclusions you propose?

I would like to see the scripture showing six trumps are all contained in the first half of the week, with the 7th occurring sometime later.

I would also like to know where I can read about the 7th trump containing the seven vials of wrath.

While I agree that both judgement and wrath are the main ideas behind what makes up the last week, I would also point out that an appeal to concession is not valid proof of the 70th week being characterized as 'wrath'. Is there scripture to support this claim?

Here's an example:

Rev 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? 

I think it's clear from this the day of wrath begins at the sixth seal so it's hard to see where wrath is the whole of the first half of the week.

And didn't you say you were not equating 'tribulation' with 'great tribulation'? Both of those conditions exist within the 70th week, as you say. The last sentence of your above post says, "But the entire 7 year period is a period of wrath and judgments..." Is this not equating wrath, tribulation, and great tribulation?

Another point: Pretib claims the whole of the 70th week is the wrath of God, this is why there must be a pretrib rapture. Naturally this assumes 'great tribulation' is synonymous with wrath. You said in your post above that the wrath of God is only in the second half of the week, after the 7th trump and contained in the vials of wrath. Is the whole 70th week the wrath of God or just the last half?

[Ezra]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

I would like to see the scripture showing six trumps are all contained in the first half of the week, with the 7th occurring sometime later.

The 13th chapter divides the first half of the week from the second half.  Chapter 13 describes the Abomination of Desolation as "the image of the beast". Since the Abomination of Desolation triggers the Great Tribulation, and the 7th seal is opened in Revelation 15-18, that is the Great Tribulation.  But there are judgments described from chapters 6-12 also.  BTW according to the Olivet Discourse the events of the 6th seal come at the end of the 7th seal judgments (cataclysmic cosmic events).

[Marcus O'Reillius]

19 hours ago, Ezra said:

They are not *different tribulations* but many judgments within Daniel's 70th week (all described in Revelation).  And we must taken all Scriptures into consideration, particularly what is in Revelation.

I have done that and I cannot agree with your assignment of the first six Trumpets to the first half of the one 'seven' whereby the anti-Christ, that beast of a man, is given authority to rule and wages war upon the Saints and overcomes them - Rev chapter 13.

I can assign a timing of the sixth Seal to being AFTER the midpoint abomination of the talking image of the beast of a man, the anti-Christ.  This sequencing, provided by blending the Olivet Discourse with the broad overview of the end-times in Rev 4-11 (exclusive) and the detailed parallel account of just the one 'seven' in Rev 13-16 (inclusive) means that all seven Trumpets are sounded in the second half of the one 'seven'.

19 hours ago, Ezra said:

Correct.  But the designated period is 3 1/2 years, which will be shortened by several months.

I would put the length of the Great Tribulation not as years as you would, but in months or weeks.

After all, how long can you survive today without electricity?  In just three days, you're in survival mode... and societal order breaks down.

Now imagine you have no electricity, and no ability to travel openly, and no water except what is naturally provided - but that the authorities - added by your neighbors and fellow countrymen - are actively hunting you down to make sure you "worship" as they do - or they'll kill you!

Again, the "cutting short" is an agricultural term for 'docking' an animal's tail.  That's pretty short... but even then, for those who are in the Great Tribulation, it will seem like Jesus is not showing up - and in the parable of the "wheat and tares", He tarries ~ which again works to having those who survive as winnowing out those of little faith - as being the True Elect.