A fence-sitter finally jumps off

[Revelation Man]

7 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Endtime Survivor has a good question in any case. Care to weigh in?

I have a follow up question: How is it that you are hearing God's voice and speaking the truth about the rapture, and I say I hear God's voice and speak the truth about the rapture, and our truths are opposed?

That means that someone isn't hearing the Holy Spirit. And as I have posted before, it means it is a large group, and that is troubling whichever side it is, that shows Satan is deceiving many, either way, one group or another, a point I have been making regularly, it does matter, because hearing God matters. This group might hear God, and be deceived in one area, or they might not hear Gods voice at all ever, or it might be a mix of the two. 

Here is my creed, I never espouse that which I am sure I have not heard from the Holy Spirit. I went 30 years as a Christian without espousing a view on the rapture, because God never revealed it to me, I don't just jump in when I read others reasoning's, if God doesn't reveal something to me, I stay quite on the subject, as far as voicing an opinion. I think too many people voice an opinion and get entrenched in their beliefs or understandings before God is ready to reveal things to us. God is patient, He doesn't show us all things right away.

Then if anything comes against our entrenched beliefs, we feel the need to attack it or poo poo it. This is why I studied for 30 years, and never came to a full understanding, or took a position, because there are many sides to this argument, but once I had all of the information, the scales tilted in favor of the Rapture, and God made this very clear to me. Revelation chapter 19 is not possible without a Rapture. 

People see this, and then do all kind of mental gymnastics to maneuver around this fact. I just try and follow the facts, because I ever took a position, I find not taking positions on things God has nor revealed to us, allows us the freedom to look at things in a broad perspective, without blurred lines.

 

God Bless

 

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

46 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

That means that someone isn't hearing the Holy Spirit. And as I have posted before, it means it is a large group, and that is troubling whichever side it is, that shows Satan is deceiving many, either way, one group or another, a point I have been making regularly, it does matter, because hearing God matters. This group might hear God, and be deceived in one area, or they might not hear Gods voice at all ever, or it might be a mix of the two. 

Here is my creed, I never espouse that which I am sure I have not heard from the Holy Spirit. I went 30 years as a Christian without espousing a view on the rapture, because God never revealed it to me, I don't just jump in when I read others reasoning's, if God doesn't reveal something to me, I stay quite on the subject, as far as voicing an opinion. I think too many people voice an opinion and get entrenched in their beliefs or understandings before God is ready to reveal things to us. God is patient, He doesn't show us all things right away.

Then if anything comes against our entrenched beliefs, we feel the need to attack it or poo poo it. This is why I studied for 30 years, and never came to a full understanding, or took a position, because there are many sides to this argument, but once I had all of the information, the scales tilted in favor of the Rapture, and God made this very clear to me. Revelation chapter 19 is not possible without a Rapture. 

People see this, and then do all kind of mental gymnastics to maneuver around this fact. I just try and follow the facts, because I ever took a position, I find not taking positions on things God has nor revealed to us, allows us the freedom to look at things in a broad perspective, without blurred lines.

 

God Bless

I don't think anyone maneuvers around the fact of the gathering of the elect.  That Jesus is coming back for His followers is ubiquitous. You realize we are debating the timing of the gathering? It seems you don't take a stand on timing from the above. 

I'm all for waiting to be sure before we speak what we think is the truth God has revealed. I also disagree with a person thinking they have heard from the Spirit when the things they hear do not align with scripture or are contradicted by scripture. This is the only test we have to know that we have heard correctly. In my case I was getting no where in my search of scripture for the truth of the end of the age. Then one day I saw scripture I hadn't seen, or was kept from me, and then many scriptures became much clearer. But I certainly didn't hear a voice or get a feeling that I should interpret prophecy by feelings or a voice, unless relevant scriptural facts were in support.

I don't see relevant scriptural facts in support of Pre Trib. I see a lot of emotion and fear. How can I say that? I was a pretribber for decades. Learned from Lindsey, turned out to be all wrong according to scripture. There is a gathering, just not before Jesus makes His only visible return.

[Revelation Man]

19 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I don't think anyone maneuvers around the fact of the gathering of the elect.  That Jesus is coming back for His followers is ubiquitous. You realize we are debating the timing of the gathering? It seems you don't take a stand on timing from the above. 

I'm all for waiting to be sure before we speak what we think is the truth God has revealed. I also disagree with a person thinking they have heard from the Spirit when the things they hear do not align with scripture or are contradicted by scripture. This is the only test we have to know that we have heard correctly. In my case I was getting no where in my search of scripture for the truth of the end of the age. Then one day I saw scripture I hadn't seen, or was kept from me, and then many scriptures became much clearer. But I certainly didn't hear a voice or get a feeling that I should interpret prophecy by feelings or a voice, unless relevant scriptural facts were in support.

I don't see relevant scriptural facts in support of Pre Trib. I see a lot of emotion and fear. How can I say that? I was a pretribber for decades. Learned from Lindsey, turned out to be all wrong according to scripture. There is a gathering, just not before Jesus makes His only visible return.

I think this espoused my position of the timing, I also think way to many people don't seem to be able to see the big picture/puzzle. God/Jesus clearly said this would be the case.

The Rapture is clearly shown in the Feasts, and the timing is shown, but as Jesus said in Matthew 13, it is not given to the average person to know the secrets of God, some will see but will not understand. Daniel and Leviticus shows in full the Raptures timing.

Feast of Springs (fulfilled already)
1. Passover-Jesus fulfilled this he was the passover Lamb
2. First-Fruits-Jesus was the First-fruits Cor. 15:20, he was Resurrected.
3. Unleavened Bread-Jesus was unleavened (without sin)

Which feast comes next ? The Feast of Pentecost, it is separated from both the Spring Feasts and Fall Feasts.

4. Pentecost-Is going on as we speak, it is the sowing of seeds so the harvest might be successful of course, the church is called to sow the seeds so that the harvest will be productive when the time is ripe. Notice the break in the Feasts ? We understand the first three were fulfilled, then the Pentecost, then the Fall Feasts come, Daniels 70 Weeks Decree show the very same break in time. A 2000 year break in God Dealing with Israel. Guess what Feast comes next !!

Feast of Trumps- This is what Paul was speaking of when he said "at the Last Trump" !!! Does anyone see it ? A trumpet (the Shofar) is blown. Trumpets make announcements. I suspect that the Feast of Trumpets will be when the Lord in some manner announces the time has come for the fulfillment of His plan for Israel. BINGO..............What is happening all throughout Revelation ? ANNOUNCEMENTS, the Seven Seals, Seven Trumps and Seven Vials are announced by Angels. AT THE LAST TRUMP. Or at the Last Trump of Feasts.

Feast of Atonement-Israel will then be atoned by Jesus, at his second coming so to speak.

Feast of Tabernacle- Tabernacle (Mishcan 4908) of course means to "dwell with" and Israel will Tabernacle or Dwell with God.

So the First three Feasts all Happened to Israel.........Then Israels time was Paused (See Daniel's 70 Week prophecy).... Then comes the Feast of Pentecost (Church Age)...........BOOM, here comes the Feast of Trumpets..........The Church is called Home and Israel's clock starts again........then the atonement of Israel after the JUDGMENTS or ANNOUNCEMENTS, then the feast of Tabernacle, or Israel dwelling with God.

 

[Diaste]

8 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

I think this espoused my position of the timing, I also think way to many people don't seem to be able to see the big picture/puzzle. God/Jesus clearly said this would be the case.

The Rapture is clearly shown in the Feasts, and the timing is shown, but as Jesus said in Matthew 13, it is not given to the average person to know the secrets of God, some will see but will not understand. Daniel and Leviticus shows in full the Raptures timing.
Well, that's not what Jesus is saying Matt 13. Your interpretation of Matt 13 bolsters the elitist view of Pre Trib.  "We are not appointed to wrath, but other believers are." Views like this shred the credibility of the Pre Trib doctrine. Your doing in Matt 13 as well. Jesus is telling the disciples where the good seed of the word is going to take root and flourish and where it will not.  Jesus explains all this in Matt 13:18-23. Your twisting this to your own ends.
Feast of Springs (fulfilled already)
1. Passover-Jesus fulfilled this he was the passover Lamb
2. First-Fruits-Jesus was the First-fruits Cor. 15:20, he was Resurrected.
3. Unleavened Bread-Jesus was unleavened (without sin)
Only biblical link in this whole post between Jesus and the feasts. Maybe there are more but you didn't post any.
Which feast comes next ? The Feast of Pentecost, it is separated from both the Spring Feasts and Fall Feasts.

4. Pentecost-Is going on as we speak, it is the sowing of seeds so the harvest might be successful of course, the church is called to sow the seeds so that the harvest will be productive when the time is ripe. Notice the break in the Feasts ? We understand the first three were fulfilled, then the Pentecost, then the Fall Feasts come, Daniels 70 Weeks Decree show the very same break in time. A 2000 year break in God Dealing with Israel. Guess what Feast comes next !!
Nice job with scriptural facts backing up this claim. The fact is this feast was more likely fulfilled in the coming of the Holy Spirit 50 days after Jesus ascended. Originally the feast of Pentecost or, Weeks or Shavuot, was a feast and offering to God of  successful harvest. Your saying it's the sowing of seed so the harvest might be successful. Wrong. 
Feast of Trumps- This is what Paul was speaking of when he said "at the Last Trump" !!! Does anyone see it ? A trumpet (the Shofar) is blown. Trumpets make announcements. I suspect that the Feast of Trumpets will be when the Lord in some manner announces the time has come for the fulfillment of His plan for Israel. BINGO..............What is happening all throughout Revelation ? ANNOUNCEMENTS, the Seven Seals, Seven Trumps and Seven Vials are announced by Angels. AT THE LAST TRUMP. Or at the Last Trump of Feasts.
You suspect? That's meaningless. Where are the scriptures that show your contention has merit? What? You had a feeling or heard a voice now the Rev trumps are explained and fulfilled by the feast of trumps? Where's the scripture? Let me help; you'll find one.

Did you know the Feast of Trumpets is a Jewish Tradition and not proscribed by God? The Feast of Trumpets appears in the Talmud which is rabbinical writings and not inspired by the Spirit.  Rosh Hashanah is the signal of the new year in Jewish Tradition, not the same thing as the real deal Lev 23:24, which is a memorial and a convocation to begin the holy days of atonement and tabernacles in the 7th month. Are you likening traditions of men to the inspired word of the Lord as given by the Spirit of God to Moses? 
Feast of Atonement-Israel will then be atoned by Jesus, at his second coming so to speak.
More musing sans facts. I think you're correct here but where is your evidence?
Feast of Tabernacle- Tabernacle (Mishcan 4908) of course means to "dwell with" and Israel will Tabernacle or Dwell with God.
This is the festival of booths or Sukkot. Tabernacle actually means 'tent' or 'hut'. God's glory used to dwell in the tent( sukkot; or hut) in the desert. But you are forcing in a meaning that is just not there.
So the First three Feasts all Happened to Israel.........Then Israels time was Paused (See Daniel's 70 Week prophecy).... Then comes the Feast of Pentecost (Church Age)...........BOOM, here comes the Feast of Trumpets..........The Church is called Home and Israel's clock starts again........then the atonement of Israel after the JUDGMENTS or ANNOUNCEMENTS, then the feast of Tabernacle, or Israel dwelling with God.

 

 

[Last Daze]

48 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Your interpretation of Matt 13 bolsters the elitist view of Pre Trib.  "We are not appointed to wrath, but other believers are." Views like this shred the credibility of the Pre Trib doctrine.

An accurate perspective.  In the past I've referred to the pretribbers view of the church as the "super-spiritual A team" and the "not-so-much B team" but the term "elitist" sums it up succinctly.

[Diaste]

It's pretty sad it's that way. But they do seem like the A team while the rest of us are the special needs kids. I'm praying they snap out of it.

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Well, that's not what Jesus is saying Matt 13. Your interpretation of Matt 13 bolsters the elitist view of Pre Trib.  "We are not appointed to wrath, but other believers are." Views like this shred the credibility of the Pre Trib doctrine. Your doing in Matt 13 as well. Jesus is telling the disciples where the good seed of the word is going to take root and flourish and where it will not.  Jesus explains all this in Matt 13:18-23. Your twisting this to your own ends.

No,  you don't seem to comprehend my point, but then again, it you seem to have to defend a position at all cost. Notice I never said "the Rapture is shown in Matthew 13" I said the Rapture is shown in Daniel (70 weeks) and Leviticus (Feasts) and I made a point by using Matthew 13 that not all will hear and see even when they hear and see. You seem to think Jesus' words in Matthew 13 are Elitist, I guess.  Or else you didn't understand the point. I make it again, Jesus said not all will hear or see even when hey hear or see, the Kingdoms secrets is given to us (the church) just like the Chapter says. Jesus said this and it is a fact. Jesus did say in this chapter that the Harvest was at the End.

 

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Only biblical link in this whole post between Jesus and the feasts. Maybe there are more but you didn't post any.

Which means you see what has past but not what is happening or what is to come.

 

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Nice job with scriptural facts backing up this claim. The fact is this feast was more likely fulfilled in the coming of the Holy Spirit 50 days after Jesus ascended. Originally the feast of Pentecost or, Weeks or Shavuot, was a feast and offering to God of  successful harvest. Your saying it's the sowing of seed so the harvest might be successful. Wrong. 

MORE LIKELY ? The Harvest doesn't happen until the end brother, Jesus stated that in Matthew 13, which is why I used that chapter for a reference point. When Jesus interpreted his own parable of the Sower. 

³⁷ He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; ( Jesus, he sows through us his Church, we are the Body of Christ. )

³⁸ The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; ³⁹ The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.⁴⁰ As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

( The Feast of Harvest can not have happened yet, it is at the end of the World, that is why the Pentecost is separate from the three Spring Feasts and three Fall Feasts, it comes in the middle to show the pattern, those three feasts were fulfilled in Jesus' death, then Pentecost came, but the three fall feasts have not come yet. )

The Feast of Trumps will come, and those are the Announcements. Followed by Atonement and Tabernacle.

 

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

You suspect? That's meaningless. Where are the scriptures that show your contention has merit? What? You had a feeling or heard a voice now the Rev trumps are explained and fulfilled by the feast of trumps? Where's the scripture? Let me help; you'll find one.

Did you know the Feast of Trumpets is a Jewish Tradition and not proscribed by God? The Feast of Trumpets appears in the Talmud which is rabbinical writings and not inspired by the Spirit.  Rosh Hashanah is the signal of the new year in Jewish Tradition, not the same thing as the real deal Lev 23:24, which is a memorial and a convocation to begin the holy days of atonement and tabernacles in the 7th month. Are you likening traditions of men to the inspired word of the Lord as given by the Spirit of God to Moses? 

REALLY ?  Leviticus 23 says it does come from God. Now there is not much known about it, but it COMES FROM GOD......

23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

² Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

 23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

²⁴ Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.

The Feast of Trumps came from Gods Holy Word. And they do ANNOUNCE the coming of the Feasts of Atonement and the Feast of Tabernacle. That is the point, maybe you will get it now since you said it. The Feast of Trumps announce that the Atonement, followed by Tabernacle are starting. Daniels 70TH WEEK is beginning, just what Daniel said must happen...... ²⁴ “Seventy weeks  are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. We know they Tabernacle (dwell with God) at the end.

 

 

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

 

I'm going to edit my quotes so you can better understand my points:

18 hours ago, Diaste said:

Well, that's not what Jesus is saying Matt 13. Your interpretation of Matt 13 bolsters the elitist view of Pre Trib.  "We are not appointed to wrath, but other believers are."(The preceding quote is the elitist view of the gathering. You are doing the same thing with your interpretation of Matt 13. You are forcing your view into Matt 13 when scripture says something very different.) Views like this shred the credibility of the Pre Trib doctrine. Your doing in Matt 13 as well. Jesus is telling the disciples where the good seed of the word is going to take root and flourish and where it will not.  Jesus explains all this in Matt 13:18-23. Your twisting this to your own ends.

No,  you don't seem to comprehend my point, but then again, it you seem to have to defend a position at all cost. Notice I never said "the Rapture is shown in Matthew 13" I said the Rapture is shown in Daniel (70 weeks) and Leviticus (Feasts) and I made a point by using Matthew 13 that not all will hear and see even when they hear and see.(Here's the twist. You are using Matt 13 to advance the idea of special knowledge that only Pre Trib has concerning the mysteries of the Kingdom.) You seem to think Jesus' words in Matthew 13 are Elitist(No. Pre Trib carries an elitist view and from what I see every interpretation from this doctrine does this.), I guess.  Or else you didn't understand the point. I make it again, Jesus said not all will hear or see even when hey hear or see, the Kingdoms secrets is given to us (the church) just like the Chapter says. Jesus said this and it is a fact.(True but that wasn't what you said. What you actually said is below)

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Rapture is clearly shown in the Feasts, and the timing is shown, but as Jesus said in Matthew 13, it is not given to the average person to know the secrets of God, some will see but will not understand. Daniel and Leviticus shows in full the Raptures timing.

(I suppose you would consider Post Trib average people while Pre Trib is above average and has access to the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. In Matt 13, Jesus is telling us that some hearing the gospel would view it as a fad and the luster would soon fade. People are fickle and weak. The seed sprouts but there is no nurturing of the tender roots so the plant dies. The same with the Gospel and the Word of God. Matt 13 differentiates between those sincere, hardcore believers and bandwagon jumpers, not between the super spritual A team and the not so spiritual B team.) 

 

18 hours ago, Diaste said:

Only biblical link in this whole post between Jesus and the feasts. Maybe there are more but you didn't post any.

Which means you see what has past but not what is happening or what is to come.

 

18 hours ago, Diaste said:

Nice job with scriptural facts backing up this claim. The fact is this feast was more likely fulfilled in the coming of the Holy Spirit 50 days after Jesus ascended. Originally the feast of Pentecost or, Weeks or Shavuot, was a feast and offering to God of  successful harvest. Your saying it's the sowing of seed so the harvest might be successful. Wrong. 

MORE LIKELY ? The Harvest doesn't happen until the end brother(Yes I know. Pre Trib says it happens before the end. Do you see you just admitted the gathering of the elect is "at the end"?), Jesus stated that in Matthew 13, which is why I used that chapter for a reference point. When Jesus interpreted his own parable of the Sower. (I know Jesus interpreted the parable but this is not what you said earlier. Your original quote follows.

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

4. Pentecost-Is going on as we speak, it is the sowing of seeds so the harvest might be successful of course, the church is called to sow the seeds so that the harvest will be productive when the time is ripe.

Pentecost has nothing to do with sowing seed. These holy days are in the harvest time. Remember, these all occur in the 7th month, the fields were sown 90 days previous. Pentecost is the harvest. A perfect picture of when the gathering of the elect occurs. 7th month=7th year, at the end, during harvest time. The harvest cannot happen before the seed is sown, nor before the day of trumps, or before atonement.

Lev 23:29" For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people." How does that square with the Pre Trib early exit? Here's another:

Lev 23:39 "Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the Lordseven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath." The fruit of the land is not gathered until the middle of the 7th month, after trumps and atonement. Now if this is a picture of the 70th week then the 7th month equals the 7th year hence, sometime in the middle of the 7th year is the gathering. But Lev 23 doesn't show an early harvest, does it?)

³⁷ He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; ( Jesus, he sows through us his Church, we are the Body of Christ. )

³⁸ The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; ³⁹ The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.⁴⁰ As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

( The Feast of Harvest can not have happened yet, it is at the end of the World, that is why the Pentecost is separate from the three Spring Feasts and three Fall Feasts, it comes in the middle to show the pattern, those three feasts were fulfilled in Jesus' death, then Pentecost came, but the three fall feasts have not come yet. )

The Feast of Trumps will come, and those are the Announcements. Followed by Atonement and Tabernacle.(Yes, but Pre Trib says that believers have no part in either Atonement nor Tabernacles. In fact, Pre Trib won't even hear the day of trumpets calling for atonement and living with/for God. This is confusion of the highest order. Pre Trib says we are not appointed to wrath, but appoints millions to the very wrath they wish to escape. Pre Trib uses Lev 23 as proof of timing of the rapture but leaves out the fact Pre Trib will not hear the reminder and call to gather for atonement. This also says Pre Trib will not partake in dwelling with God. Now it seems to me that if there was an early harvest, before the 7th month, Lev 23 would be the place to find it. Sadly, for Pre Trib, no such events exists. I think it's time to abandon this quest for early departure and start trusting in God.)

 

REALLY ?  Leviticus 23 says it does come from God. Now there is not much known about it, but it COMES FROM GOD......(You don't really read what I post in it's entirety, do you? Lev 23 does not describe feasts as in parties. "Feasts" means "appointed times" God says to blow trumpets as a reminder, memorial, and a convocation, gathering the people, to assemble for the holy days of the rituals of the harvest. All the other liturgy surrounding these appointed times are Talmudic. But you still have not provided any solid scriptural evidence that any of the old Jewish ways point to any kind of Pre Trib timing for the rapture.)

23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

² Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

 23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

²⁴ Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.

The Feast of Trumps came from Gods Holy Word. And they do ANNOUNCE the coming of the Feasts of Atonement and the Feast of Tabernacle. That is the point, maybe you will get it now since you said it. The Feast of Trumps announce that the Atonement, followed by Tabernacle are starting. Daniels 70TH WEEK is beginning,(I know. Do you realize that the harvest only occurs at the end? If the reminder and the gathering of the people in the days of blowing trumpets is a call to atonement and living with God then Pre Trib is incorrect? If believers are gone before this then they do not hear the trumpets, gathering them for the holy days, they do not partake in the antonement, and then do not partake in tabernacles. So again, by your own words, and Lev 23, Pre Trib is not truth.) just what Daniel said must happen...... ²⁴ “Seventy weeks  are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. We know they Tabernacle (dwell with God) at the end.

 

 

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

On 6/26/2016 at 3:27 PM, Revelation Man said:

The Holy Spirit can not lead us wrong.

True enough, but there's a whole heap of potential for following wrong.  There's a world of difference between the person who sticks their chin out and says, "I can't be wrong because I follow the Holy Spirit" and the person who looks inside and asks, "Holy Spirit, am I following properly"?

[Endtime_Survivors]

21 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

I'm going to edit my quotes so you can better understand my points:

Hi Diaste.  I'm not sure what it is, but something seems to keep happening with your posts where they stretch off the screen (to the right side) making it difficult to read.  Does it appear that way on your screen, too?  I only see it for your posts.