Should we be looking for the same Return?

[Kan]

20 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Kan

This quote is completely opposite from:  Zech 14:8 - On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea and half to the western sea, in summer and in winter.  AND  Zech v. 9 - The Lord will be king over the whole earth.  On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.  AND Zech 14:16 - Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

In Christ

Montana Marv

That event occurs as John the Revelator says, at the end of the thousand years, then the Kingdom is established on earth. Otherwise John is wrong.

This chapter in Zechariah is about the literal Israel and its historic events, as well as the elements of visions of the prophet about the future blended in, which is typical of these minor prophets.

[Montana Marv]

3 hours ago, Kan said:

That event occurs as John the Revelator says, at the end of the thousand years, then the Kingdom is established on earth. Otherwise John is wrong.

Again, not what Scripture says.  Rev 20:7-9 - When the 1000 years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth.  Gog and Magog to gather them for the battle.  In number they are like the sand on the seashore.  They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves.  But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

So according to Scripture all who surrounded the camp were killed (devoured).  Yet Zech 14:16 says; Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty.

All cannot die, then there be survivors.  So these are two separate events.  One being during the 1000 years, and the other after the 1000 years.  So John and Zech are both correct and in agreement.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Kan]

6 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Again, not what Scripture says.  Rev 20:7-9 - When the 1000 years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth.  Gog and Magog to gather them for the battle.  In number they are like the sand on the seashore.  They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves.  But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

So according to Scripture all who surrounded the camp were killed (devoured).  Yet Zech 14:16 says; Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty.

All cannot die, then there be survivors.  So these are two separate events.  One being during the 1000 years, and the other after the 1000 years.  So John and Zech are both correct and in agreement.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Speaking about the first resurrection at the coming of Christ, Rev 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" The rest of the dead, we see from the previous verse and chapter 19, are those who received the mark of the beast and were killed at the return of Christ. At that time the world is divided into two classes of people, those who have the mark of the beast and those who don't. All who have the mark perish.

Then in the next verse it explains it again, blessed are those who are in the first resurrection where the second death has no power over them. (We are all prone to experience the first death, but the second death only happens to the lost after the judgement which occurs at the end of the thousand years.)

As to the earth being destroyed with all its inhabitants at the coming of Christ, II Peter 3, shows that the entire earth will be destroyed, just like water destroyed the first world, where only the faithful were saved, only 8 people.

It says in chapter 19 that Jesus will rule the nations with a rod of iron. This may be taken to mean that He rules on earth. But the chapter goes on to show what ruling with a rod of iron means.

A rod of iron isn't there to bless people, but to beat them to death as the chapter tells. And the world absolutely deserves such treatment after what they have done to the millions of innocents. Jesus is symbolized as having garments dipped in blood, that is not a kingly robe, but that of a warrior. 

 

 

[missmuffet]

In the rapture of the Church Christ does not put him foot on the soil of this Earth. He does in the second coming.

Question: "What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?"

Answer: The rapture and the second coming of Christ are often confused. Sometimes it is difficult to determine whether a scripture verse is referring to the rapture or the second coming. However, in studying end-times Bible prophecy, it is very important to differentiate between the two.

The rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. Believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected and, along with believers who are still living, will meet the Lord in the air. This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. The second coming is when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His millennial kingdom. The second coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16.

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.

http://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html

[Kan]

8 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Again, not what Scripture says.  Rev 20:7-9 - When the 1000 years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth.  Gog and Magog to gather them for the battle.  In number they are like the sand on the seashore.  They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves.  But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

So according to Scripture all who surrounded the camp were killed (devoured).  Yet Zech 14:16 says; Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty.

All cannot die, then there be survivors.  So these are two separate events.  One being during the 1000 years, and the other after the 1000 years.  So John and Zech are both correct and in agreement.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Another illustration of how the end time scenes are mixed with visionary material of the future, is in the last few verses of Zechariah. It talks about sacrifices and pots etc, and we both know these would not be practiced by the people of God ever since the death of the prefigured Lamb.

It so happens that what happened in ancient times, is similar in principle to the future, that is why we have record of these stories. 

Enoch warned the people before the flood, of Christ's return with His angels and saints, but that did not happen, the world drowned instead.

Enoch had close communications with God, and he felt an impending doom over the world. Enoch did not understand the fate of the righteous, and thought that there would be no life after death. So God gave him a vision of end times and the return of Christ, with the resurrection of the saints. This vision so impressed Enoch that he preached it. Either way, the people were warned of their stupid mentality, and had they listened to his message they would have boarded the ark, because they would have recognized the same Spirit of God calling through Noah.

I don't believe that because we have differing views that either of us is not in Christ, but that we all want to be ready when He returns, and that's what really counts. That faith saved Enoch.

[Kan]

1 hour ago, bopeep1909 said:

In the rapture of the Church Christ does not put him foot on the soil of this Earth. He does in the second coming.

Question: "What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?"

Answer: The rapture and the second coming of Christ are often confused. Sometimes it is difficult to determine whether a scripture verse is referring to the rapture or the second coming. However, in studying end-times Bible prophecy, it is very important to differentiate between the two.

The rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. Believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected and, along with believers who are still living, will meet the Lord in the air. This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. The second coming is when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His millennial kingdom. The second coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16.

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.

http://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html

How can you prove that the texts used to support the rapture are not the same for the return of Christ?

[missmuffet]

26 minutes ago, Kan said:

How can you prove that the texts used to support the rapture are not the same for the return of Christ?

I don't need to prove anything. The answer to the dilemma that the rapture and the second coming come from the true Word of God. It is quite obvious in the "Got Questions" answer that the rapture of the Church and Second coming are two separate events.
 

[Kan]

2 hours ago, bopeep1909 said:

I don't need to prove anything. The answer to the dilemma that the rapture and the second coming come from the true Word of God. It is quite obvious in the "Got Questions" answer that the rapture of the Church and Second coming are two separate events.
 

It isn't obvious to me, and I have requested several times on this forum, to have a single text published that supports the rapture and which does not support the second advent, and so far no one has been able to come forward and do so. As far as I am concerned the rapture is all in the imagination. I cannot come to any other conclusion without the scriptural evidence.

I already know all of the scriptures which are supposed to speak rapture, and I already know none of them support it. That is why I accept that no one can prove to me, because it simply is not in the Bible. 

Can you quote just one text which proves the rapture?

I know you can't and no one else can.

No offense intended.

 

 

[missmuffet]

49 minutes ago, Kan said:

It isn't obvious to me, and I have requested several times on this forum, to have a single text published that supports the rapture and which does not support the second advent, and so far no one has been able to come forward and do so. As far as I am concerned the rapture is all in the imagination. I cannot come to any other conclusion without the scriptural evidence.

I already know all of the scriptures which are supposed to speak rapture, and I already know none of them support it. That is why I accept that no one can prove to me, because it simply is not in the Bible. 

Can you quote just one text which proves the rapture?

I know you can't and no one else can.

No offense intended.

 

 

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54.

That is all that is needed. If you interpret Scripture literally you will not miss it.

[Kan]

5 hours ago, bopeep1909 said:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54.

That is all that is needed. If you interpret Scripture literally you will not miss it.

Thankyou.

How do these apply exclusively to the rapture?

They don't. It simply says that when Christ returns that the dead in Christ will rise first, and then the living follow, being caught up together in the clouds. It is logic that if you want them to be lifted together, that you have to raise the dead first, because the living don't need to be brought up from the graves.

Corinthians is the same, just the one event of people being changed so that they can go to heaven. When does this occur? "At the last trumpet" When is the last trump? I Thess 4:16, when Christ returns. The dead are raised and the living are changed.

None of these texts can be exclusively applied to the rapture, can they?