Ezra Posted June 19, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 19, 2016 36 minutes ago, Qnts2 said: I would not call the Mosaic covenant an empty shell since it was given by God. That to me demeans God. Nothing God did was an empty shell. Since God Himself tells us that the Mosaic Covenant became null and void the moment Christ said "It is finished", God Himself declared it to be that which decayeth, and waxeth old, and is ready to VANISH AWAY (Heb 8:13). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted June 19, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 19, 2016 45 minutes ago, Ezra said: Since God Himself tells us that the Mosaic Covenant became null and void the moment Christ said "It is finished", God Himself declared it to be that which decayeth, and waxeth old, and is ready to VANISH AWAY (Heb 8:13). What does God say about the OT and the Mosaic covenant? Tim 3:16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. All scripture includes the OT, which contains the Mosaic covenant, which is scripture inspired by God and profitable for teaching etc. It is written that the man of God can be equipped for every good work. Romans 7:12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. The OT and the Mosaic covenant is not an 'empty shell' as you have said. Scripture disagrees with you. You might want to read some of the Psalms.  Psalm 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord, And in His law he meditates day and night. We know how God was pleased with King David. Nothing God gives should ever be called an 'empty shell'.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted June 20, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 20, 2016 6 hours ago, Qnts2 said: Nothing God gives should ever be called an 'empty shell'. I called Judaism an empty shell. God did NOT give man Judaism. He gave man Christ, who is rejected by Judaism. So why would a Hebrew Christian think that Judaism has any merit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FresnoJoe Posted June 20, 2016 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 207 Topic Count: 60 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,651 Content Per Day: 1.17 Reputation: 5,761 Days Won: 4 Joined: 01/31/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/04/1943 Share Posted June 20, 2016 2 hours ago, Ezra said: He gave man Christ, who is rejected by Judaism.... So why would a Hebrew Christian think that Judaism has any merit.... What.... Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. Romans 3:1-2 (New American Standard Bible) No Merit.... What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it? May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written,             “THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS,             AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED.” Romans 3:3-4 (New American Standard Bible) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted June 20, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 20, 2016 8 hours ago, Ezra said: I called Judaism an empty shell. God did NOT give man Judaism. He gave man Christ, who is rejected by Judaism. So why would a Hebrew Christian think that Judaism has any merit? Fresno Joe answered very well. The bible shows very clearly in the OT and the NT that God gave the OT and the promises to the Jewish people. Again, Judaism means the religion of the Jewish people, which is God given. Anything given by God has merit. For me, it was Judaism that gave me the information to believe in Jesus as Judaism teaches the OT scriptures given by God and teaches of the prophesied Messiah. Judaism has preserved the OT scriptures and teaches the OT. So, when you call Judaism and empty shell, you are calling what God gave the children of Israel and what God did for the children of Israel an did an empty shell.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serving Posted June 22, 2016 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 934 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 905 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/05/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1969 Share Posted June 22, 2016 On 20/06/2016 at 9:00 PM, Qnts2 said: Fresno Joe answered very well. The bible shows very clearly in the OT and the NT that God gave the OT and the promises to the Jewish people. Again, Judaism means the religion of the Jewish people, which is God given. Anything given by God has merit. For me, it was Judaism that gave me the information to believe in Jesus as Judaism teaches the OT scriptures given by God and teaches of the prophesied Messiah. Judaism has preserved the OT scriptures and teaches the OT. So, when you call Judaism and empty shell, you are calling what God gave the children of Israel and what God did for the children of Israel an did an empty shell.  I think Ezra means the covenant itself of which tent Judaism dwells in as being the empty shell.   There is no life in the 1st covenant but only the curse now .. and that word of the 1st covenant judges without mercy .. other words, a bureaucratic judgement if there ever was .. and there is no mercy in bureaucratic outcomes, only the outcome itself is accepted. But thank God for His great mercy because God has left a clause for those who bind themselves under that curse, a curse because he who breaks the least of those commandments, breaks them all .. and only One could keep that Law without spot, no man can find life in that 1st covenant, nor could they ever since it's inception, technically speaking .. but God never intended it to anyway .. God had His plan determined even before creating the earth, Judaism was only meant to be a vehicle, and every vehicle runs it's course (speaking of the covenant NOT of the prophecies and insights therein, because the 1st covenant was merely the shadow of what was to come) .. and when one ceases to be, so does his shadow. But for the sake of the promises God made to the father's (the promises being the clause and NOT the covenant itself), seeing that the 1st covenant is no longer valid, yet even so, those who put themselves under it must abide by it and be judged by it (if excluded from that clause), meaning no chance at salvation since no man can keep the Law .. even so, Jeremiah & Romans provide insight as to how God is going to keep His promises to the father's towards those under the now defunct and desolate 1st covenant .. He intends to do it by an election of grace regarding the basket of set aside "good figs" which basket contains those who God will bring back and learn of Christ during the millennium, thereby breaking the curse which hung over all their heads now removed. This group of "good figs" are those of every past generation brought back in the flesh as Ezekiel (among others) reveals, to occupy and learn of Christ in the restored kingdom of Israel during the millennium whereas all others who were IN Christ, both Jews & Gentile, will be resurrected spirit beings like the angels where those resurrected saints become kings & priests overseeing the human Israelite's just as the angels oversee those IN Christ today .. this is where "the first become the last" is fulfilled .. those Israelite's became last to be rewarded (given eternal life) since they did not know Christ. And even though some under Judaism may come to Christ, it is not Judaism that reveals this to them, because all those under the old Law have the veil over their hearts and eyes even today, but it is Christ Himself who reveals to them .. and only AFTER that revealing can one appreciate Messiah IN the Old Covenant, so it is actually the other way round .. Christ revealed, then an appreciation of Christ in the Old Covenant .. meaning .. the veil must be lifted BEFORE He can be appreciated within the Old .. and you can only find that revealing in the New Covenant which covenant is most definitely at odds with the Old, as is written : Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. This is HOW the promise of "all of Israel will be saved" is to be accomplished .. all of those "good figs" revealed in Jeremiah constitute "all of Israel", and THEY partake of the election of grace spoken of above .. NOT that basket of Israelite "bad figs" though, that group are reserved for the flames and not life. Just a brief run down from another perspective .. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted June 22, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 22, 2016 10 hours ago, Serving said: I think Ezra means the covenant itself of which tent Judaism dwells in as being the empty shell.   There is no life in the 1st covenant but only the curse now .. and that word of the 1st covenant judges without mercy .. other words, a bureaucratic judgement if there ever was .. and there is no mercy in bureaucratic outcomes, only the outcome itself is accepted. But thank God for His great mercy because God has left a clause for those who bind themselves under that curse, a curse because he who breaks the least of those commandments, breaks them all .. and only One could keep that Law without spot, no man can find life in that 1st covenant, nor could they ever since it's inception, technically speaking .. but God never intended it to anyway .. God had His plan determined even before creating the earth, Judaism was only meant to be a vehicle, and every vehicle runs it's course (speaking of the covenant NOT of the prophecies and insights therein, because the 1st covenant was merely the shadow of what was to come) .. and when one ceases to be, so does his shadow. But for the sake of the promises God made to the father's (the promises being the clause and NOT the covenant itself), seeing that the 1st covenant is no longer valid, yet even so, those who put themselves under it must abide by it and be judged by it (if excluded from that clause), meaning no chance at salvation since no man can keep the Law .. even so, Jeremiah & Romans provide insight as to how God is going to keep His promises to the father's towards those under the now defunct and desolate 1st covenant .. He intends to do it by an election of grace regarding the basket of set aside "good figs" which basket contains those who God will bring back and learn of Christ during the millennium, thereby breaking the curse which hung over all their heads now removed. This group of "good figs" are those of every past generation brought back in the flesh as Ezekiel (among others) reveals, to occupy and learn of Christ in the restored kingdom of Israel during the millennium whereas all others who were IN Christ, both Jews & Gentile, will be resurrected spirit beings like the angels where those resurrected saints become kings & priests overseeing the human Israelite's just as the angels oversee those IN Christ today .. this is where "the first become the last" is fulfilled .. those Israelite's became last to be rewarded (given eternal life) since they did not know Christ. And even though some under Judaism may come to Christ, it is not Judaism that reveals this to them, because all those under the old Law have the veil over their hearts and eyes even today, but it is Christ Himself who reveals to them .. and only AFTER that revealing can one appreciate Messiah IN the Old Covenant, so it is actually the other way round .. Christ revealed, then an appreciation of Christ in the Old Covenant .. meaning .. the veil must be lifted BEFORE He can be appreciated within the Old .. and you can only find that revealing in the New Covenant which covenant is most definitely at odds with the Old, as is written : Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. This is HOW the promise of "all of Israel will be saved" is to be accomplished .. all of those "good figs" revealed in Jeremiah constitute "all of Israel", and THEY partake of the election of grace spoken of above .. NOT that basket of Israelite "bad figs" though, that group are reserved for the flames and not life. Just a brief run down from another perspective .. Cheers. I understand what Ezra and you are trying to say, but it is contrary to scripture. Nothing, and I mean nothing God gives is ever an empty shell. I view such a statement as demeaning to God. In both the OT and the NT, the benefits of scripture is emphasized, and the OT is scripture. I think some people are confused. They think that since Jesus came, the Mosaic covenant no longer offers eternal salvation, but totally miss the fact that eternal salvation was never, ever offered in the Mosaic covenant. Before Jesus, the Mosaic covenant did not offer salvation, so nothing has changed as far as the Mosaic covenant. The New Covenant is the better covenant because it gives eternal salvation but the Mosaic covenant is called a good covenant in the NT. Not an empty shell. Those who look down on the Mosaic covenant, and miss the beauty and purpose, might call it an 'empty shell', but again, nothing God gives is empty.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplejeff Posted January 3, 2017 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 12 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,689 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 20 Joined: 06/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 3, 2017 On 6/19/2016 at 3:54 PM, Qnts2 said: Since Judaism is the religion of the Jewish people, and Judaism includes the promise of the Messiah, along with prophesies about the Jewish people coming to Jesus, Judaism as the religion of the Jewish people, does and will include Jesus. Amein and HalleluYAH !   All the other nations could (if they willing) learn a lot from believing Jews.    Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted January 5, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 227 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/18/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted January 5, 2017 On June 18, 2016 at 5:39 PM, Ezra said: What Jews must come to terms with is that they must repent and be converted and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Which would mean the end of Judaism.  On June 19, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Ezra said: It's more than that. It means "the religion of the Jewish people WITHOUT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST". Thus an empty shell. This is veiled antisemitic hate speech promoting spiritual genocide. Mainstream anti-Torah Greek/Roman Evangelical Christians are going to piss themselves when Messiah comes. New American Standard Bible "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."'" (Zechariah 8:23) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted January 5, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 5, 2017 1 minute ago, Zach said: This is veiled antisemitic hate speech promoting spiritual genocide. I had to have a good laugh at that remark.  Are you completely unaware that Israel (the Jews) -- by and large -- committed spiritual suicide when they said "His blood be upon our heads, and upon our children"?  Therefore God brought judgment upon Judah, Jerusalem, and the Jews in AD 70 (through the Romans), and they were dispersed, as Moses has prophesied. Yes, Rabbinic Judaism is indeed an empty shell, since the Lord Jesus Christ is absent from their worship. That is exactly what Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians.  Thankfully many Jews have turned, and are turning to Jesus in these last days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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