A Time, Times, and Half a Time

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, tleichs said:

so, can we not call Father's house as heaven or paradise?

Shalom, tleichs.

Well, ... NO. See, "heaven" is a word (Hebrew: shaamaayim; Greek: ouranos, ouranoi) that means the "sky" or the "skies." It doesn't have anything directly to do with the place where God's throne is, the Father's house, the New Jerusalem.

"Paradise" is an English transliteration of the Greek "paradeisos" which, in turn, is a transliteration of the Hebrew "pardeec," and ALL these words mean "a park!" Specifically, it's a "park of trees" or an "orchard." These words refer to the park of trees, especially with the Tree of Life species, within the New Jerusalem.

The problem is that people have ASSUMED DEFINITIONS for these words that do NOT apply to the reality of what these words mean. Therefore, to use these words without an investigation of that to which these words are referring is tantamount to accepting their assumed definitions, which are technically WRONG.

16 hours ago, tleichs said:

Yes, that was what I mean since the beginn[ing]....

Yes, that is the point. A language can be letters, draw[ings], colors..... then is code and we are so abbituated (?) with this code that we don't hear sonds, but we [see] images.... And here I come to my first point: [those] who write [wrote] the Bible are [were] humans and they interpret[ed] what they saw and understand [understood] with the hebrew language. The serpent spoke with Eva. Serpents dont have tongue and teeth like humans [do]; so, I believe they spoke another type of language, that is not our languages today. Since we read the Bible from Hebrew I can't believe it is the definition of God, because God did not write nothing [anything]. It is definition of humans, trying to describe something from God. So a day from Genesis is not the same day of our day, because there was no sun and our day need to be a sun to be a day. So you can not say how long a day was in the first 7 days....

No, that's not right. See, the LIGHT was made on the first day of Creation, God dividing the light from the darkness, and GOD called the light "day" (Hebrew: yowm), and He called the darkness "night" (Hebrew: laaylaah).

When He created the "lights" (Hebrew: ma'owrot) on day four, the Scriptures do NOT say that He created the "sun" and the "moon!" To the contrary, they say that He created "two great lights, the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night." Again, Hebrew HAS words for "sun" and "moon": they are "shemesh" and "yaareeach," respectively, but these words were NOT used in Genesis 1! The "day" and "night" are NOT dependent on the sun but on the LIGHT!

Oh, and by the way, God DID write the Torah! Some think it was just the Ten Commandments, but that's not what the Bible says:

Exodus 31:18
18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
KJV

Later, we read in Exodus...

Exodus 20:8-11
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
KJV

Exodus 31:16-17
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
KJV

And, these verses are CLEARLY talking about a normal week: six days for working; one day for resting. You're on what we call in the United States a "fishing expedition!" You're trying to make something out of nothing!

[Marcus O'Reillius]

PART 7: The Doctrine of the Future\Chapter 57: The New Heavens and New Earth\Explanation and Scriptural Basis\A. We Will Live Eternally With God in New Heavens and a New Earth\2. Heaven Is a Place, Not Just a State of Mind

1. What Is Heaven? During this present age, the place where God dwells is frequently called "heaven" in Scripture. The Lord says, "Heaven is my throne" (Isa 66:1), and Jesus teaches us to pray, "Our Father who art in heaven" (Matt 6:9). Jesus now "has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God" (1 Peter 3:22). In fact, heaven may be defined as follows: Heaven is the place where God most fully makes known his presence to bless.

We discussed earlier how God is present everywhere but how he especially manifests his presence to bless in certain places. The greatest manifestation of God's presence to bless is seen in heaven, where he makes his glory known, and where angels, other heavenly creatures, and redeemed saints all worship him.

2. Heaven Is a Place, Not Just a State of Mind. But someone may wonder how heaven can be joined together with earth. Clearly the earth is a place that exists at a certain location in our space-time universe, but can heaven also be thought of as a place that can be joined to the earth?

Outside of the evangelical world the idea of heaven as a place is often denied, chiefly because its existence can only be known from the testimony of Scripture. Recently even some evangelical scholars have been hesitant to affirm the fact that heaven is a place. Should the fact that we only know about heaven from the Bible, and cannot give any empirical evidence for it, be a reason not to believe that heaven is a real place?

The New Testament teaches the idea of a location for heaven in several different ways, and quite clearly. When Jesus ascended into heaven, the fact that he went to a place seems to be the entire point of the narrative, and the point that Jesus intended his disciples to understand by the way in which he gradually ascended even while speaking to them: "As they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight" (Acts 1:9; cf. Luke 24:51: "While he blessed them, he parted from them"). The angels exclaimed, "This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven" (Acts 1:11). It is hard to imagine how the fact of Jesus' ascension to a place could be taught more clearly.

A similar conclusion can be drawn from the story of Stephen's death. Just before he was stoned, he, "full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; and he said, 'Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God'" (Acts 7:55-56). He did not see mere symbols of a state of existence. It seems rather that his eyes were opened to see a spiritual dimension of reality which God has hidden from us in this present age, a dimension which nonetheless really does exist in our space/time universe, and within which Jesus now lives in his physical resurrection body, waiting even now for the time when he will return to earth. Moreover, the fact that we will have resurrection bodies like Christ's resurrection body indicates that heaven will be a place, for in such physical bodies (made perfect, never to become weak or die again), we will inhabit a specific place at a specific time, just as Jesus now does in his resurrection body.

The idea of heaven as a place is also the easiest sense in which to understand Jesus' promise, "I go to prepare a place for you" (John 14:2). He speaks quite clearly of going from his existence in this world back to the Father, and then returning again: "And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also" (John 14:3).

These texts lead us to conclude that heaven is even now a place—though one whose location is now unknown to us and whose existence is now unable to be perceived by our natural senses. It is this place of God's dwelling that will be somehow made new at the time of the final judgment and will be joined to a renewed earth.

(from Systematic Theology, Copyright © 1994 by Wayne Grudem. All rights reserved.)

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

PART 7: The Doctrine of the Future\Chapter 57: The New Heavens and New Earth\Explanation and Scriptural Basis\A. We Will Live Eternally With God in New Heavens and a New Earth\2. Heaven Is a Place, Not Just a State of Mind

1. What Is Heaven? During this present age, the place where God dwells is frequently called "heaven" in Scripture. The Lord says, "Heaven is my throne" (Isa 66:1), and Jesus teaches us to pray, "Our Father who art in heaven" (Matt 6:9). Jesus now "has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God" (1 Peter 3:22). In fact, heaven may be defined as follows: Heaven is the place where God most fully makes known his presence to bless.

Shalom, Marcus.

Notice, though, that God said, "Heaven is my throne," NOT "Heaven is where my throne exists!"

Which "heaven?"
Matthew 6:9 says, "Our Father who art in heaven (Greek: en ouranos = 'in [the] sky')."
Matthew 6:14, 26, 32 and 15:13 say, "heavenly (Greek: ouranios = 'of [the] sky') Father."
Matthew 18:35 says, "heavenly (Greek: epouranios = 'of above-[the]-sky') Father."

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We discussed earlier how God is present everywhere but how he especially manifests his presence to bless in certain places. The greatest manifestation of God's presence to bless is seen in heaven, where he makes his glory known, and where angels, other heavenly creatures, and redeemed saints all worship him.

This has no Scriptural basis. This is PURELY theologically based upon a particular theological position. Does one need to be in a particular place to worship God? "To worship" means "to bow" or "to bend the knee." (It does NOT mean "to raise both hands into the air and sway back and forth to the music.") Again, God is present EVERYWHERE and His presence (sh'kinah) is EQUALLY manifest to His beloved children, wherever they may be!

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2. Heaven Is a Place, Not Just a State of Mind. But someone may wonder how heaven can be joined together with earth. Clearly the earth is a place that exists at a certain location in our space-time universe, but can heaven also be thought of as a place that can be joined to the earth?

YES! Of course! The sky - the earth's atmosphere - IS "a place that can be joined to the earth." It's joined by gravity! Thus, it, too, is located "at a certain location in our space-time universe."

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Outside of the evangelical world the idea of heaven as a place is often denied, chiefly because its existence can only be known from the testimony of Scripture. Recently even some evangelical scholars have been hesitant to affirm the fact that heaven is a place. Should the fact that we only know about heaven from the Bible, and cannot give any empirical evidence for it, be a reason not to believe that heaven is a real place?

Well, not EVERYWHERE outside of the evangelical world is the idea of heaven denied. The concept we have developed over the years for a "heaven" was developed during the "Dark Ages," but has its origin in the Greek world through Plato's philosophy and Greek mythology.

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The New Testament teaches the idea of a location for heaven in several different ways, and quite clearly. When Jesus ascended into heaven, the fact that he went to a place seems to be the entire point of the narrative, and the point that Jesus intended his disciples to understand by the way in which he gradually ascended even while speaking to them: "As they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight" (Acts 1:9; cf. Luke 24:51: "While he blessed them, he parted from them"). The angels exclaimed, "This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven" (Acts 1:11). It is hard to imagine how the fact of Jesus' ascension to a place could be taught more clearly.

Yeshua` ascended into the sky, was hidden from view by a cloud, and went to His Father's epouranios "house" - His Father's "Bedouin tent" - the New Jerusalem, currently being built in space.

God has been taking His time to construct the city. Consistent crystal growing takes time to accomplish, and a whole foundation constructed as a topaz, for instance (see Revelation 21:20), may follow one or more of the following techniques:

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TOPAZ TREATMENTS AND ENHANCEMENTS

Blue Topaz, the most commonly used Topaz color, is formed from colorless or lightly colored Topaz that is irradiated to make it blue, and then heat treated to stabilize the new color. Different forms of radiation treatment can produce different shades of blue. Most pink Topaz in the gem trade is heat treated from yellow or brownish Topaz.

The colorful Mystic Topaz and Azotic Topaz are synthetically treated to produce their rainbow/multicolored effect using film deposition. The process involves bonding an extremely thin metallic film layer over the top of the gemstone, so that the interesting color effects are reflected from the crown.

The chemical formula for topaz is "Al₂SiO₄(F,OH)₂," and it can be synthesized, although God can make natural minerals easier than men can synthesize them. It has a hardness of 8, and can be a good building material based on aluminum and silicon. As the ninth foundation level in a pyramid-shaped city, it would be 500 miles (4/12 = 1/3 of 1500 miles) by 500 miles for a total of 250,000 square miles of building space. With a hardness of 8 and a particular crystalline structure (orthorhombic), a particular thickness to this foundation would be necessary (although I don't know what it would be). How long would it take to form a flawless gem of that size? And, that's just ONE of the twelve foundations! One would also have to build four jasper (a form of blood-red quartz, SiO₂, silicon dioxide, with a hardness of 6.5 to 7) walls "great and high" by which to contain this city! 

Yeshua` went to "prepare a place (Greek: topos) for you," not just a "room" (or a "mansion") (Greek: monee), probably consisting of several "rooms." (John 14:2)

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A similar conclusion can be drawn from the story of Stephen's death. Just before he was stoned, he, "full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; and he said, 'Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God'" (Acts 7:55-56). He did not see mere symbols of a state of existence. It seems rather that his eyes were opened to see a spiritual dimension of reality which God has hidden from us in this present age, a dimension which nonetheless really does exist in our space/time universe, and within which Jesus now lives in his physical resurrection body, waiting even now for the time when he will return to earth. Moreover, the fact that we will have resurrection bodies like Christ's resurrection body indicates that heaven will be a place, for in such physical bodies (made perfect, never to become weak or die again), we will inhabit a specific place at a specific time, just as Jesus now does in his resurrection body.

The idea of heaven as a place is also the easiest sense in which to understand Jesus' promise, "I go to prepare a place for you" (John 14:2). He speaks quite clearly of going from his existence in this world back to the Father, and then returning again: "And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also" (John 14:3).

These texts lead us to conclude that heaven is even now a place—though one whose location is now unknown to us and whose existence is now unable to be perceived by our natural senses. It is this place of God's dwelling that will be somehow made new at the time of the final judgment and will be joined to a renewed earth.

(from Systematic Theology, Copyright © 1994 by Wayne Grudem. All rights reserved.)

I don't disagree with any of this except to say that we don't need a "spiritual dimension of reality" (whistling a strange warble)! Stephen could have seen the same thing as did Ezekiel with the addition of God's Messiah, Yeshua`, in a VISION of the future, as all prophets of God experienced. He gazed into the sky and saw the brightness of God with Yeshua` standing on the right-hand side of His Father, God.

The only problem is that it is NOT "Heaven"; it's the New Jerusalem!

Edited December 2, 2016 by Retrobyter
to include salutation

[Marcus O'Reillius]

His Temple and His Throne are in Heaven.

Exodus 25:8 Let them construct a sanctuary for Me, that I may dwell among them. 9 According to all that I am going to show you, as the pattern of the tabernacle and the pattern of all its furniture, just so you shall construct it.

The Temple on Earth is patterned after the one in Heaven.

The rest of your fight you'll have to take up with Wayne Grudem, who is a better scholar than either you or me put together.

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

His Temple and His Throne are in Heaven.

Exodus 25:8 Let them construct a sanctuary for Me, that I may dwell among them. 9 According to all that I am going to show you, as the pattern of the tabernacle and the pattern of all its furniture, just so you shall construct it.

The Temple on Earth is patterned after the one in Heaven.

The rest of your fight you'll have to take up with Wayne Grudem, who is a better scholar than either you or me put together.

Shalom, Marcus.

Well, that's what your theory says. However, that's NOT what the Scripture says! The Temple on earth was patterned after the MODEL that Mosheh (Moses) was shown on Mount Sinai, not some Temple in "Heaven." It's known as "eisegesis" when one reads into the Scriptures what they do not say.

[Heb 13:8]

If heaven doesn't have a throne, then where is the body of Christ. The body of Christ was taken up. Not only is there a throne, there's an entire city in heaven Rev 21:2.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Heb 13:8

[Marcus O'Reillius]

God has a Temple in Heaven.  That is a fact.

So I know you have all your theories and they're pretty mixed up - taking the New Jerusalem and making it into a pyramid, and your theory on how we're all transported to Jerusalem with the Rapture - but no, there is a Temple in Heaven and it's not floating on the clouds or in outer space no matter what you say the word means.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Rev 7:14 "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple."

[tleichs]

On 01/12/2016 at 6:05 AM, Retrobyter said:

Exodus 31:18
18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
KJV

 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deuteronomy 4:13

[tleichs]

On 01/12/2016 at 6:05 AM, Retrobyter said:

The "day" and "night" are NOT dependent on the sun but on the LIGHT!

yes, I totally agree. And our days now depends on sun. So the days are not the same! And the first 7 days were evening and morning, not day and night, there were no nights in the first seven days..... More one reason to believe that the days on the creation are not exactaly the same nowadays....