Christian Conditionalism vs Traditionalism (Rethinking Hell)

[LuftWaffle]

Admittedly the above lists are a little cheeky, but I think it illustrates two points, which is why I wanted to post them.

Firstly, the charge that conditionalists are theological liberals who twist scripture to suit their view is simply false.

Secondly, I think it illustrates how the traditionalist doctrine has become so ingrained in Christian discourse that people auto-replace what they read in the Bible with the doctrine and even sound scholars such as the great teachers listed don't recognise that they're actually contradicting scripture.

This was the biggest eye opener for me, in my study on this topic, was how the bible doesn't actually say what is so commonly believed.

Edited March 25, 2017 by LuftWaffle

[Hawkeye]

Just now, Yowm said:

'Perish', 'destruction' and 'death' does not preclude eternal torment as mentioned elsewhere. Proves nothing.

Punishment does not necessarily = burning. Eternal separation from God through death would be punishment as well..

[Hawkeye]

Just now, Yowm said:

So the Lake of Fire is only separation? Why fire if only separation?

Sorry that was meant to say punishment does not necc = burning for eternity.

[Hawkeye]

It's a place for Satan , The beast and the false prophet.

[LuftWaffle]

8 hours ago, Cletus said:

Im not being dismissive.  The teaching that hell is temporary is new, hence the use of the word traditional in the threads title.

Actually the traditional view appears around the time of Augustine. If we look at earlier writings of the church fathers then many of them appear to have been conditionalists, for instance:

First Clement (late 1st century)
Ignatius of Antioch (late 1st century)
Epistle of Barnabas (late 1st or early 2nd century)
Irenaeus (2nd century)
Arnobius (early 4th century)
Athanasius (4th century)

It's also pretty clear that the notion that all human beings are immortal, which is the basis of the traditional view crept into Christian belief from Plato's writings. Tertullian for instance cites Plato and not scripture when speaking of the immortality of all souls.

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For a very long time people simply believed what the bible says, which is, hell is forever. 

Firstly I have been very clear that the punishment, namely death is forever. The unsaved do not die for a while. So I'm in agreement about the eternal nature of the punishment.

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cherry picking scriptures or misinterpreting scriptures to suit a belief,

My belief is that taking figures of speech and interpreting them at face value to support a doctrine is an example of what you're talking about. I have pointed out that terms like smoke rising forever and worms dying not, when taken in their proper context, offers better support for my view.

The cherry picking charge is actually pretty absurd considering that I have argued for my view from passages picked by traditionalists. My contention from the beginning was that I believe the proof texts for eternal conscious torment are actually better confirmation of my view.

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which started out as a loving God cant be that cruel.

None of the evangelical conditionalists I have encountered came to their conclusions because "a loving God can't be that cruel".
I came to the conclusion that conditionalism is true by researching what the bible teaches about the fate of the unsaved instead of merely looking at proof texts for hell and ignoring their literary context and how they are used elsewhere in scripture.

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There is only one context for this.  worms, probably maggots, eating forever the flesh and the fire never goes out.... just like Jesus reference to ghenna which was at that time a trash dump where the fire never went out.... day or night.  there is no hint to temporary found here.  for eternal yes, its there.  And so am i to believe God contradicts Himself?  Thru His Word?  The Word, who became flesh and dwelt amoung us?

The bible doesn't teach that the maggots are forever eating flesh. There is no such thing as an immortal maggot.
See, this is precisely my point. The bible says the worms die not, which is just a way of saying that the worms won't be stopped from eating up the bodies of the dead

Likewise the bible says the fire isn't quenched, it does not say the fire never goes out, and therefore the unsaved must live forever so that the fire will have something to burn, those are your words not the Bible, and they bad logical deductions based on misunderstand scripture. What the unquenchable fire means is simply that the fire is unstoppable, that it won't be put out until it has burnt up what it must must up. To quench a fire is to put it out.

Another example of this language is here:

Jer 7:33  And the dead bodies of this people will be food for the birds of the air, and for the beasts of the earth, and none will frighten them away.

Notice the pattern? God is using images of unstoppable fire, unstoppable maggots and unstoppable scavengers to illustrate the utter destruction of the wicked. Nowhere do any of these, when understood in their proper context, support your interpretation. Notice also that in every case these images apply to the dead bodies, not to people living forever in torment.

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And lastly, we must not look at one or even a few verses to build a foundation of belief upon.  thats a form of cherry picking and its not the whole truth.  we must look at ALL  verses pertaining to the subject and see what Gods word says in total.

I agree, but the problem is that the traditional view ignores all the verses that describe the fate of the wicked from the old testament all the way to the new as death, because traditionalists don't believe that the fate of the wicked is death. When traditionalists source proof texts for hell they limit their search to the handful of verses which they think support eternal conscious torment while skipping over the deluge of text that doesn't fit with the doctrine.

My desire is indeed for us to look at how God promised he will punish the wicked and what the destiny for the saved is, without seeing it through the coloured lenses of tradition.

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In another place it says hell is cast into the lake of fire, which means people go there.  i think its rev 20:14 where it talks about the second death.

The problem is that it also says that death and hades are emptied before it is thrown into the lake of fire. So even assuming a wooden literal understanding of these apocalyptic images, doesn't help your case. My contention is that death and hades are abstract concepts, not containers full of screaming people. The traditional view forces a literal understanding of clearly apocalyptic imagery and then basis an entire doctrine on deductions from these, IMHO. bad readings of Revelation. And moreover they're not even consistent about it, because they do not view the many horned-many headed beasts, the whore and so many others things in Revelation in that same wooden literal way.

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God is very precise with His words.

I agree. Why then is it that traditionalist often teach precisely the opposite of what the bible says?

Edited March 25, 2017 by LuftWaffle

[LuftWaffle]

1 hour ago, Yowm said:

Death is separation from God/Life, they will be separated (death) and in torment forever.

Nowhere does the Bible teach that death = separation. This notion comes from Plato which is ironic given the fact that you've accused me of using philosphy instead of scripture to argue my case.

"We believe, do we not, that death is the separation of the soul from the body, and that the state of being dead is the state in which the body is separated from the soul and exists alone by itself and the soul is separated from the body and exists alone by itself? Is death anything other than this?" - Plato’s Phaedo, section 64c

It is also through Plato that the notion that all souls including the unsaved are immortal comes from.

When the Bible refers to the fate of the unsaved it never defines death as separation, but it regularly uses it in conjunction with words like perish and destroy.

Edited March 25, 2017 by LuftWaffle

[LuftWaffle]

41 minutes ago, Yowm said:

'Perish', 'destruction' and 'death' does not preclude eternal torment as mentioned elsewhere. Proves nothing.

Your believe is that the unsaved are immortal and cannot die, is it not? When the bible uses the terms perish and destroy is it not used in reference to dead bodies rotting and decaying, chaff burning up and so on? How are any of those compatible with your view that people will live immortally, fully conscious and aware and intact forever. Somehow you're calling this death and destruction and perish, even though the words mean the exact opposite and the scriptural examples  show the exact opposite. Your view is more like how the burning bush that Moses saw is described:

And the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed.
(Exo 3:2)

Your view is that people will burn forever without ever burning up or being consumed, but the words destroy mean the exact opposite.

[LuftWaffle]

1 hour ago, Yowm said:

Yes they did. From Genesis to Malachi there is a progression of revelation found, climaxing in Jesus Christ. The Prophets, for example, revealed more clearly about the Messiah than Genesis.

Yes, about the Messiah, and Christs literal acts and words revealed this progression and when we look back at scripture post His revelation we see the clear typology. What you're doing is simply throwing out the word "progressive revelation" in the hopes that it'll do the heavy lifting for your view, without actually exegeting scripture. You might as well say "Exegesis says I'm right and you're wrong, or Good Hermeneutics says I'm right"

But worse, if anything you've shot the entire traditionalist case in the foot, because now the proof texts for eternal conscious torment are only proof texts if correct exegesis is overruled by the assumption that progressive revelation reveals that the fate of the lost is eternal conscious torment. But you haven't shown that eternal conscious torment has been progressively revealed, so this is all just question begging.

Edited March 25, 2017 by LuftWaffle

[Jeff2]

To me, the historical tradition of eternal punishment and the Scriptures that support it are clear. While not a salvation issue, I find that the annihilation position is based far too much in a philosophical argument than in Scripture. If you have to explain away half of the passages that deal with eternal punishment to arrive at where you desire, something is wrong. Every position has a few difficult passages to deal with, but when you have to turn the Bible on its ear to prove a point, I tend to believe that something is not healthy, and potentially dangerous in that position.   

When I see things like this, a flag goes up and I ask myself, what does Scripture say? On this basis I find annihilation wanting. The twisting's and turnings of Sophistry is no substitute for Scripture.

Secondly, I do ask myself, what is someone to gain by rejecting eternal punishment? Is it an effort to prove that they are more correct than the majority? Is it to have a point to argue that their position/denomination is more correct than others, and therefore we should yield to whatever else they say? This is what I have seen from my interactions with the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Lastly, while not an essential for salvation, I wonder at the commitment and passion to disprove eternal punishment. Historically speaking, the issue is late in Christian history, and dominates in groups that I would not want to hold hands with doctrinally.

[FresnoJoe]

On 3/24/2017 at 7:19 PM, Hawkeye said:

I still have not seen the ECT Crowd address my question....

If Jesus took our punishment, which the Bible says he did....
And if said punishment for rejecting him is that we burn forever....

Why is he not still burning....

Why

And anyone who believes in God's Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn't obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God's angry judgment." John 3:36 (New Living Translation)

Indeed

And if your eye offend you, pluck it out: it is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:47-48 (American King James Version)

PS: Jesus Never Burned

He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem. Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted.But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him,and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. Isaiah 53:3-6 (New International Version)

But Without Jesus  

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6L23 (Berean Study Bible)

We All Surely

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:13-15 (New American Standard Bible)

Will

The Devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)

Be Blessed Beloved Daughter Of The King

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 (King James Bible)

Love, Your Brother Joe

~

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160 (King James Bible)

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Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.

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From The Inside Of My Gideon New Testament