Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[iamlamad]

 

 

This is the angel's summary:

 

²⁰ The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

²¹ And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

²² Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

²³ And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

 

This is speaking of the days of Alexander the Great. HE was the great horn. When He died, the Kingdom was divided up and

 Ptolemy, Seleucus, Lysimachus, and  Antipater took over Alexander's kingdom. Seleucus got the area of Syria. The empire took the southern part of Turkey east all the way to the border of India. Indeed, he became the first "king of the North."  Ptolemy got most of Israel, but pretty much left them alone. he was the first "king of the South. it was not until Antiochus the 3rd, Antiochus  Epiphanes father, that the Seleucids controlled Palestine. By the time Antiochus Epiphanes became ruler, the empire had shrunk to a tiny portion of what it was under his father's rule. Verse 23 is about Antiochus Epiphanes.  Note that it says in the "latter time of THEIR kindgom....WHO IS "THEIR?"  it is  Ptolemy, Seleucus, Lysimachus, and  Antipater, or the GRECIAN kingdom. The rest of the chapter is  therefore about Antiochus Epiphanes. It is the context that proves this.

 

CONTEXT then reigns supreme on forming beliefs from scripture. You wrote, "It's obvious you don't care what the Scriptures actually state."  On the contrary, I go by scripture, not man's theories.

 

By that Jesus showed the "abomination of desolation" event from Daniel is for the END of this world

 

So what? What does what Jesus said have to do with what was HISTORY in His day, when He was speaking of the future? Daniel also spoke of an abomination in chapter 9 (NOT Antiochus' abomination)  and that is what is still future to us today.

 

 

No matter how much you apply historical accounts to those Daniel 8 Scriptures, you will never disassociate those Dan.8:11-14 verses about the end of daily sacrifices and placing the abomination that makes desolate from the other Daniel examples of that event (Dan.9:27; Dan.11:31; Dan.12). That means that 2300 days timing given in association with it applies for the end, because the end of the abomination of desolation idea won't end until the future coming Antichrist fulfills it just prior to Christ's second coming.

 

This  theory comes from man's reasoning and imagination, with NO BASIS in scripture. It is what you believe, so you just ignore what is written and say that it means what you WANT it to mean. I have seen this done over and over and over.

 

OF COURSE chapter 8 can be disassociated from the other chapters, simply because DANIEL disassociated them. They are speaking of TWO DIFFERENT EVENTS separated by around 2000 years.

 

Perhaps it would do you some good to read what the Amplified Bible said about this:

 

Daniel 8:9 This horn of Dan. 8:9-12 is not to be confused with the “little horn” of Dan. 7:8. This one is a prophetic forecast of Antiochus Epiphanes, who came out of Syria, one of the four dynasties into which Alexander’s empire was divided, and became a great conqueror. Hating God, he profaned the temple and persecuted the Jews terribly. However, he serves as a type of the “little horn” of Dan. 7:8, the even more ruthless beast of the last days (Rev. 13:4-9)."

 

I will believe what the scriptures say on this, and will surely believe this note above your imagined theories. Whoever wrote that note knew what he or she was talking about.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

 

Salty, we cannot cherry pick favorite scriptures and ignore the rest. You must leave all of Daniel 8 IN CONTEXT.

This is the angel's summary:

 

 

One be assured I'm not the one doing that so-called "cherry picking". You declare one thing one moment, and then you reverse it with something else later, like you did with the subject of Antiochus.

 

Salty, your imagination is running wild! I have never wavered on what I have written,  and I will repeat it as long as necessary until you get it - for it is TRUTH: Daniel 8 is about Antiochus. The Little horn in chapter 7 is about the Beast of Revelation. I thought everyone knew this.

 

LAMAD

[Salty]

 

This  theory comes from man's reasoning and imagination, with NO BASIS in scripture. It is what you believe, so you just ignore what is written and say that it means what you WANT it to mean. I have seen this done over and over and over.

 

OF COURSE chapter 8 can be disassociated from the other chapters, simply because DANIEL disassociated them. They are speaking of TWO DIFFERENT EVENTS separated by around 2000 years.

 

Perhaps it would do you some good to read what the Amplified Bible said about this:

 

Daniel 8:9 This horn of Dan. 8:9-12 is not to be confused with the “little horn” of Dan. 7:8. This one is a prophetic forecast of Antiochus Epiphanes, who came out of Syria, one of the four dynasties into which Alexander’s empire was divided, and became a great conqueror. Hating God, he profaned the temple and persecuted the Jews terribly. However, he serves as a type of the “little horn” of Dan. 7:8, the even more ruthless beast of the last days (Rev. 13:4-9)."

 

I will believe what the scriptures say on this, and will surely believe this note above your imagined theories. Whoever wrote that note knew what he or she was talking about.

 

LAMAD

 

 

You don't heed the Scriptures as they are written, so why should anyone listen to your stupid insults?

[Salty]

Salty, your imagination is running wild! I have never wavered on what I have written,  and I will repeat it as long as necessary until you get it - for it is TRUTH: Daniel 8 is about Antiochus. The Little horn in chapter 7 is about the Beast of Revelation. I thought everyone knew this.

 

 

LAMAD

 

 

You've been weighed and measured, and found lacking.

[iamlamad]

 

Salty, your imagination is running wild! I have never wavered on what I have written,  and I will repeat it as long as necessary until you get it - for it is TRUTH: Daniel 8 is about Antiochus. The Little horn in chapter 7 is about the Beast of Revelation. I thought everyone knew this.

 

 

LAMAD

 

 

You've been weighed and measured, and found lacking.

 

You can disagree with the commentators [and me] all you want. You can be wrong if you want. It is your choice.

 

The truth is, Daniel chapter 8 is very clearly about Persia and Greece, and Greece defeating Persia. Then Alexander dying and His kingdom dividing four ways. Then it picks up with Antiochus in the latter end of the Seleucus dynasty. He descrated the temple by slaughtering a pig and setting up on image of Zeus in the Holy of Holies. OF COURSE the temple then would have to be cleansed. The angel told how long it would be before the temple was cleansed: 2300 days. So of course that number was accurate for THEN, back in the days of Antiochus, but that number has NOTHING to do with our future. This is truth: you can embrace it or you can stay in error.  Again, it is your choice. You are on a public forum and have been found teaching error. Does that bother you at all?

 

LAMAD

[Defending the Name]

The debate continues, and I suppose it will until/if the church finds itself recognizing that the antichrist/man of sin/beast/son of perdition/abomination that cuases desolation/etc. has been revealed and recognized.

So, here is what I am asking, this is the question that this thread is about:

Where in the bible is it stated, or which combination of verses do you believe imply (evidentially, not wishfully) that there is either:

• a secret coming of Jesus for the church before the great tribulation
• an invisible coming of Jesus for the church
• a two part second advent
• a scriptural distinction of Jesus coming for His church, versus His coming with His church

From my perspective, in case it is not obvious, the only thing invisible about Jesus coming, is that it is that the pre-trib rapture is invisible in the sense that it is no where to be found in scripture.

Some of you disagree, what I am asking then, is for the biblical basis, the scriptural evidence, for one or more of the bulleted points (•) above. Some of you are so sure that Jesus will return before the great tribulation, that certainly you must have biblical evident of the truth or likelyhood, of the pre-trib return of Christ.

To those who want to reply in this thread:

Please stick to the premise of it, scriptural evidence for a coming of Jesus to catch up His church to be with Him prior to the great tribulation.

I know that I am asking a lot of people to stay on topic. I understand that people are passionate about their eschatological beliefs. However, please exercise some self control and not start in with a statement of or defense of your own, other than pre-trib persuasion.

Let's let this thread be limited to actual scriptural evidence of a pre-trib rapture.

Opposing viewpoints are o.k., but limit those to just enough to present an answer to any posts claiming to present scriptural evidence of a pre-trib rapture, without making it about what you believe instead.

To those taking up the challenge presented here, please note that I have gone to great lengths to be specific in limiting the type of posts appropriate to this thread. For example:

• Stating that "the rapture is Jesus coming for His church before the trib" is a definition of your belief, and is not scriptural evidence, such a statement is just an opinion, and is evidence that you believe, not for your belief.
• Stating things like "the church is not mentioned after verse such and such in Revelation", is also not evidence, it is merely an argument from silence.
• Stating that "the church is not destined to suffer God's wrath" is also not evidence, unless you can prove that the whole to the great tribulation is in fact the wrath of God, and that if the church is present for that, that she cannot and will not be protected from God's wrath during the great tribulation

Hopefully, examples like those above, will convey the idea of what I am seeking, and that you can understand the nature of evidence as opposed to statements of faith in your doctrine. The idea here, is to present some quality reasons to believe in the pre-trib rapture. So here you have an opportunity. Please, give it a shot if you think that you have scriptural evidence.

Thanks in advance

Christ comes for every departed faithful and this was the promise to raise them up on the last day in the earthly body. Is it secretly done?

Yes off course, because it is written:

1 Corinthians 15:23

But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

The message that Saint Paul was giving to the church within the context of the new covenant recipients in which the letter was addressed to. This means that Saint Paul was telling them that each of the believers will have their turn as far the the resurrection is concerned.

So what dictates their turn one might say?

2 Timothy 4:6-8

6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

Saint Paul is saying he is ready to depart from this life, because he is ready to be killed. It is apparent that Saint Paul's day of execution was near and was known. That is why he comforts those who would continue living after his execution by saying the following:

"the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing."

Here Saint Paul provides the context of the Lord's secret appearing when he presents that his turn is coming very shortly when he is to be put to death. However he goes one step further by saying to the immediate recipients of his letter that THAT DAY is not only TO ME, but also to ALL (to the immediate recipients of this letters) who have longed for his appearing.

It is plainly obvious that 1 Corinthians 15:23 "But each in turn" statement, is to the immediate recipients who lived in his time. This means that they each IN TURN will come to THAT DAY mentioned in 2 Timothy 4:6-8, when the faithful dies, then and only then do they secretly behold the appearing of The Lord that they so longed for. As far as Saint Paul is concerned in 2 Timothy 4:6-8, this happened to him, before those recipients in which his letter were intended for.

The appearing of The Lord has happened to countless new covenant believers after they depart from the earthly life and will continue to happen when their last day and hour comes, to part from their earthly body.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Defending the Name

[iamlamad]

 

The debate continues, and I suppose it will until/if the church finds itself recognizing that the antichrist/man of sin/beast/son of perdition/abomination that cuases desolation/etc. has been revealed and recognized.

So, here is what I am asking, this is the question that this thread is about:

Where in the bible is it stated, or which combination of verses do you believe imply (evidentially, not wishfully) that there is either:

 

• a secret coming of Jesus for the church before the great tribulation
• an invisible coming of Jesus for the church
• a two part second advent
• a scriptural distinction of Jesus coming for His church, versus His coming with His church

From my perspective, in case it is not obvious, the only thing invisible about Jesus coming, is that it is that the pre-trib rapture is invisible in the sense that it is no where to be found in scripture.

Some of you disagree, what I am asking then, is for the biblical basis, the scriptural evidence, for one or more of the bulleted points (•) above. Some of you are so sure that Jesus will return before the great tribulation, that certainly you must have biblical evident of the truth or likelyhood, of the pre-trib return of Christ.

To those who want to reply in this thread:

Please stick to the premise of it, scriptural evidence for a coming of Jesus to catch up His church to be with Him prior to the great tribulation.

I know that I am asking a lot of people to stay on topic. I understand that people are passionate about their eschatological beliefs. However, please exercise some self control and not start in with a statement of or defense of your own, other than pre-trib persuasion.

Let's let this thread be limited to actual scriptural evidence of a pre-trib rapture.

Opposing viewpoints are o.k., but limit those to just enough to present an answer to any posts claiming to present scriptural evidence of a pre-trib rapture, without making it about what you believe instead.

To those taking up the challenge presented here, please note that I have gone to great lengths to be specific in limiting the type of posts appropriate to this thread. For example:

• Stating that "the rapture is Jesus coming for His church before the trib" is a definition of your belief, and is not scriptural evidence, such a statement is just an opinion, and is evidence that you believe, not for your belief.
• Stating things like "the church is not mentioned after verse such and such in Revelation", is also not evidence, it is merely an argument from silence.
• Stating that "the church is not destined to suffer God's wrath" is also not evidence, unless you can prove that the whole to the great tribulation is in fact the wrath of God, and that if the church is present for that, that she cannot and will not be protected from God's wrath during the great tribulation

Hopefully, examples like those above, will convey the idea of what I am seeking, and that you can understand the nature of evidence as opposed to statements of faith in your doctrine. The idea here, is to present some quality reasons to believe in the pre-trib rapture. So here you have an opportunity. Please, give it a shot if you think that you have scriptural evidence.

Thanks in advance

Christ comes for every departed faithful and this was the promise to raise them up on the last day in the earthly body. Is it secretly done?

Yes off course, because it is written:

1 Corinthians 15:23

But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

The message that Saint Paul was giving to the church within the context of the new covenant recipients in which the letter was addressed to. This means that Saint Paul was telling them that each of the believers will have their turn as far the the resurrection is concerned.

So what dictates their turn one might say?

2 Timothy 4:6-8

6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

Saint Paul is saying he is ready to depart from this life, because he is ready to be killed. It is apparent that Saint Paul's day of execution was near and was known. That is why he comforts those who would continue living after his execution by saying the following:

"the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing."

Here Saint Paul provides the context of the Lord's secret appearing when he presents that his turn is coming very shortly when he is to be put to death. However he goes one step further by saying to the immediate recipients of his letter that THAT DAY is not only TO ME, but also to ALL (to the immediate recipients of this letters) who have longed for his appearing.

It is plainly obvious that 1 Corinthians 15:23 "But each in turn" statement, is to the immediate recipients who lived in his time. This means that they each IN TURN will come to THAT DAY mentioned in 2 Timothy 4:6-8, when the faithful dies, then and only then do they secretly behold the appearing of The Lord that they so longed for. As far as Saint Paul is concerned in 2 Timothy 4:6-8, this happened to him, before those recipients in which his letter were intended for.

The appearing of The Lord has happened to countless new covenant believers after they depart from the earthly life and will continue to happen when their last day and hour comes, to part from their earthly body.

 

You seem to have this backwards. It is written, WHEN HE COMES.....  You have it when we come to Him, as in He stays in heaven and each as they die go to Him. This is a theory that cannot be backed up with scripture. What is written is that He comes to US, and we meet Him in the air and in the clouds. This will be where the dead in Christ are raised to: the AIR above the ground. Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, down to the AIR above the earth. How far up? John does not tell us. From there He commands the dead in Christ to rise and they all come flying up out of their graves, and their spirits (whom Jesus will bring with Him) will once again join with their body, and they will once and for all be HOLY and COMPLETE. If you imagine that Jesus Himself comes to earth each time a believer dies, you are wrong, there is no scripture to support such an idea.

 

Paul then teaches that when the dead in Christ rise, it will be ALL AT ONCE; untold millions flying up out of their graves. This "one at a time" only refers to their SPIRIT MAN going to heaven, not a resurrected body. Notice, when he comes, those who belong to him. (1 Corinthians 15:23)

He comes ONCE for all His bride; untold millions raising at one moment in time.

 

LAMAD

[Enoch2021]

The debate continues, and I suppose it will until/if the church finds itself recognizing that the antichrist/man of sin/beast/son of perdition/abomination that cuases desolation/etc. has been revealed and recognized.

 

So, here is what I am asking, this is the question that this thread is about:

 

Where in the bible is it stated, or which combination of verses do you believe imply (evidentially, not wishfully) that there is either:

 

• a secret coming of Jesus for the church before the great tribulation
• an invisible coming of Jesus for the church
• a two part second advent
• a scriptural distinction of Jesus coming for His church, versus His coming with His church

From my perspective, in case it is not obvious, the only thing invisible about Jesus coming, is that it is that the pre-trib rapture is invisible in the sense that it is no where to be found in scripture.

 

Some of you disagree, what I am asking then, is for the biblical basis, the scriptural evidence, for one or more of the bulleted points (•) above. Some of you are so sure that Jesus will return before the great tribulation, that certainly you must have biblical evident of the truth or likelyhood, of the pre-trib return of Christ.

 

To those who want to reply in this thread:

Please stick to the premise of it, scriptural evidence for a coming of Jesus to catch up His church to be with Him prior to the great tribulation.

 

I know that I am asking a lot of people to stay on topic. I understand that people are passionate about their eschatological beliefs. However, please exercise some self control and not start in with a statement of or defense of your own, other than pre-trib persuasion.

 

Let's let this thread be limited to actual scriptural evidence of a pre-trib rapture.

 

Opposing viewpoints are o.k., but limit those to just enough to present an answer to any posts claiming to present scriptural evidence of a pre-trib rapture, without making it about what you believe instead.

 

To those taking up the challenge presented here, please note that I have gone to great lengths to be specific in limiting the type of posts appropriate to this thread. For example:

 

• Stating that "the rapture is Jesus coming for His church before the trib" is a definition of your belief, and is not scriptural evidence, such a statement is just an opinion, and is evidence that you believe, not for your belief.
• Stating things like "the church is not mentioned after verse such and such in Revelation", is also not evidence, it is merely an argument from silence.
• Stating that "the church is not destined to suffer God's wrath" is also not evidence, unless you can prove that the whole to the great tribulation is in fact the wrath of God, and that if the church is present for that, that she cannot and will not be protected from God's wrath during the great tribulation

Hopefully, examples like those above, will convey the idea of what I am seeking, and that you can understand the nature of evidence as opposed to statements of faith in your doctrine. The idea here, is to present some quality reasons to believe in the pre-trib rapture. So here you have an opportunity. Please, give it a shot if you think that you have scriptural evidence.

 

Thanks in advance

 

 

=====================================================================================================

 

No Problem....

 

(1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  {18} Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

 

Any other position than the Pre-Trib position has "The Church"/Born Again Christians going through the Great Tribulation....

 

Well 98% of "The Church"/Born Again Christians are DEAD (From Pentecost until now or when it's time).  So for "The Church" to go through the "Great Tribulation" on the Earth, They would have to be RESURRECTED and Walking around on the Earth so as to go through The Great Tribulation.

So unless you can show this scenario in Scripture, welcome to Pre-Trib.    

 

 

Moreover,  

 

(Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

(Mark 13:32) " But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

(Luke 12:40) " Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

(2 Peter 3:10) "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

 

 

If any "Christians" that have read Daniel Chapter 9 (Every "Christian" {other than newly converted} that I ever met is somewhat to Overtly aware of it) Observe or Hear of the Abomination of Desolation....They can more or less Mark their Calendars and Set Their Watches for Christ's Return....Whereby Scuttling the Above Passages along with another 8-10 that I didn't post.

 

How's That?

 

I have about 30 more Scriptural Proofs.... but I really don't need them; These Two settle the Matter quite Abruptly.

[Guest Butero]

I just came across this thread, so if this scripture has been discussed, sorry for repeating it.  This to me is the most compelling Biblical evidence for the rapture.

 

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.  But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.  Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.  Watch therefore:  for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 

Matthew 24:36-42

 

The conditions you read about when this event takes place seems like a rather ordinary time.  People are just living their lives like normal.  At the time of Noe, people were warned about the coming flood, and didn't believe him.  They saw Noe building an ark, and they scoffed.  Today, people are being warned about the coming tribulation period, and they don't believe.  They are told about the Lord coming back to take his people out of the world before the tribulation if they are watching, and they scoff.  There is nothing in this passage that would lead me to believe these people are going through the great tribulation period. 

 

Another thing is the suddenness of this event, and how people didn't see it coming.  We know that once the anti-Christ is revealed, we have 7 years till the second coming.  Where is the surprise in that?  I believe this is speaking of the rapture. 

[ghtan]

Hi there! Yes, I too think this refers to the rapture but wouldn't verses like 1 Cor 15:51 and 1 Thess 4:17 more plainly talk about the event? By the way, I think most period lengths in Revelation are symbolic and so the 7 years are probably not literal.