Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[Marilyn C]

Hi otherone,

 

You so rightly said -

 

`I don't understand how the question of this thread can go on for so long and not be reconciled.`

 

I believe it would go on infinitum (until the Lord came) because it is all about the `details.` Once we start talking about `Why,` God is doing such & such then the details will fall into place. I will do this one day after the heat has died down a little. Though it will probably start just another fire.

 

Marilyn.

[PeteWaldo]

 

What I am saying is that I don't ascribe to any future 3-1/2 year or 7-year future period as being something that can be supported by scripture.

 

 

Well Scripture does Support it....

If scripture actually supported it you wouldn't have had to ignore the questions I closed my last two posts with.

Is Jesus the one sacrifice for sin forever or not?

Did Jesus already rebuild the temple in 3 days, nearly 2,000 years ago, or not?

[PeteWaldo]

 

Well Scripture does Support it....

 

(Matthew 24:15-21) " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  {16}  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  {17}  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:  {18}  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.  {19}  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!  {20}  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:  {21}  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

 

Which then leads you here...

 

(Daniel 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

With the Time frame here...

 

"Time and Times, and a Dividing of Time": Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7, Rev 12:14; "1260 Days": Rev 11:3, Rev 12:6 ; "42 Months": Rev 11:2, Rev 13:5.

 

 

This is what we call in the Industry as a: Slam Dunk

 

 

Which of course is the whole point. He is just a man that you follow.

 

What?      I never heard of the man lol.  Do you know me?  Please stop blindly speculating.

 

 

It is certainly what John Darby, and his disciple C.I. Scofield who popularized the doctrine in the western church through his annotated Bible, thought was a "Slam Dunk", but the fact that you ignored the questions I asked at the end of my last two posts indicate that it is anything but a slam dunk according to the Gospel, which is why they were alone in their pop-eschatology.

 

"C. I. was so taken by the Ribera-Lacunza-Macdonald-Darby ideas that he decided to include them in the annotated Bible he was working on. Sound Bible scholars of the day like A. J. Gordon, Charles R. Erdman and W.G. Moorhead tried to dissuade him. Three members of Scofield's revision committee even resigned because of his unswerving support for the view, but their voices were not heard. The seven-year-tribulation doctrine remained . . . and that's how a Jesuit's imaginative creation ..... was incorporated into the now-famous notes of the Scofield Reference Bible." Ellis Skolfield

If you've never heard of John Darby as you claimed, then you haven't been reading my posts. Why don't you Google "An End Time Myth" mentioned in the first post on the page? Why not revisit that post that you apparently ignored, and copy and paste a chunk of text to review the 30 or so dates related to the source of your eschatology, listed in the paper "Pre-trib Rapture Diehards", and actually try learning something about the history of your doctrine rather than continuing to stick your head in the sand?

You insisted on self-imposed abject ignorance to the history of the doctrine you keep, but now that you have been made aware of John Darby who is credited as being the "father of modern dispensationalism and futurism", are you going to keep insisting that you never heard of him in the future?

That you didn't know you follow John Nelson Darby, is unrelated to the fact that you do. Do you suppose there is any shortage of Jehovah's Witnesses that have never heard of Charles Taze Russell? How about Seventh Day Adventists that have never heard of William Miller? There are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world that don't even realize they follow Muhammad alone (actually follow Satan through Muhammad), in specific DISbelief of the whole subject of the Gospel, as an article of their faith.

 

Quran Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus ..... but they killed him not, nor crucified him..... for of a surety they killed him not:-

Edited November 5, 2014 by PeteWaldo

[PeteWaldo]

 

Then you Extrapolate from the Blind Speculation with this....

 

"Yet it is the same reason that you are necessarily precluded from even considering, that Muhammad could be THE false prophet of the book of Revelation, even as 1.5 billion people - 1/4 of mankind in the world today - are required to DISbelieve the crucifixion of Christ and thus REJECT His shed blood, and deny and blaspheme the Son of God, as articles of their faith in the false prophet Muhammad alone. The stark raving blindness is simply amazing. Even as they are commanded by Muhammad to conquer and subjugate you and your heirs to denying the Son of God and rejecting His shed blood.

So do you ascribe to the whole rebuilt temple scheme and resumption of sacrifices by the Jews too?"

 

 

If the premise that you conjure is fallacious....what happens to everything downstream from that error?

 

Well let's investigate what you characterize as "conjecture is fallacious" and "blind speculation" or "error".

 

"Yet it is the same reason that you are necessarily precluded from even considering, that Muhammad could be THE false prophet of the book of Revelation,.........

 

This cannot be denied. Futurists must believe that "the false prophet" mentioned in the book of Revelation is a fixture of some future someday, during their "7-year tribulation" (yours perhaps 3-1/2 year or some such thing), which necessarily precludes them from even being able to consider Muhammad as THE false prophet of the book of Revelation. Let alone that they await a boogieman as "The" "Antichrist" of that same someday, even as there are 1.5 billion antichrists in the world today - as an article of their faith - many of whom are doing as they are commanded who are out there conquering, subjugating and beheading Christians and other innocents, and that number of antichrists doesn't even include atheists and other antichrists who deny the Son of God.

 

....even as 1.5 billion people - 1/4 of mankind in the world today - are required to DISbelieve the crucifixion of Christ and thus REJECT His shed blood, and deny and blaspheme the Son of God, as articles of their faith in the false prophet Muhammad alone.

 

Is this the part that is "blind speculation" and "error"? Some put the number of Muslims at 1.6 billion, but it's somewhere around there. What about what they are required to DISbelieve because of their faith in THE false prophet Muhammad?

 

Quran Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus ..... but they killed him not, nor crucified him..... for of a surety they killed him not:-

 

Surah 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

 

Quran Surah 9.29 Fight those.....(even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 .....Christians call Christ the son of Allah. .....Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

 

The stark raving blindness is simply amazing.

 

It is amazing indeed. So tell me, is your "the false prophet" of some future someday, going to convert all of the Muslims to some as yet not revealed religion of some future someday? Perhaps you can join me in a big hearty guffaw!

 

Even as they are commanded by Muhammad to conquer and subjugate you and your heirs to denying the Son of God and rejecting His shed blood.

 

More "blind speculation" and error? In the prior section I pointed out how they are supposed to fight including specifically the "people of the book" which are Jews and Christians. Here's some more:

 

Bukhari, V1 B2 #24 Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle.....

 

That means fighting you and your heirs until you testify to that blasphemy. Just as they are doing in the Middle East and Northern Africa today.

 

Quran Surah 9.111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an......

 

Surah 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

 

Exactly as they did in Muhammad's day, have for 1400 years, and are doing in the Middle East as I write. Yet unlike the church for 1800 years including those great men of God of the Reformation, futurists must ignore virtually the entirety of the history of the Christian era, because of their faith in John Darby.

 

"Summarized Sahih Al-Bukhari" - Maktba Dar-us-Salam's page 580

Chapter 2. The best among the people is that believer who strives his utmost in Allah's Cause with both his life and property.

footnotes:

[1] "Al-Jihad (the holy fighting) in Allah's Cause (with full force of number and weaponry) is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars (on which it stands). By Jihad Islam is established, Allah's Word is made superior, [His Word being La ilaha ill-Allah (which means: none has the right to be worshipped but Allah)] and His Religion (Islam) is propagated. By abandoning Jihad (may Allah protect us from that) Islam is destroyed and the Muslims fall into an inferior position; there honour is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim, and he who tries to escape from this duty, or does not in his innermost heart wish to fulfill this duty, dies with one of the qualities of a hypocrite.

[2] Of course, nobody can offer Salat (prayer) and observe Saum (fast) incessantly, and since the Muslim fighter is rewarded as if he was doing such good impossible deeds, no possible deed equals Jihad in reward.

 

So do you ascribe to the whole rebuilt temple scheme and resumption of sacrifices by the Jews too?"

 

This isn't speculation but a question that you failed to answer.

Edited November 5, 2014 by PeteWaldo

[PeteWaldo]

 

Rev 12:14; "1260 Days": Rev 11:3, Rev 12:6 ; "42 Months": Rev 11:2, Rev 13:5.

 

 

This is what we call in the Industry as a: Slam Dunk

 

Surely even you can see that there can be no such thing as a "Slam Dunk", when everything you believe about those problems is pure raw speculation about some future someday, that is yet to take place. Even as I already showed you "Slam Dunk" confirmation through fulfilled prophecy in two separate problems that cross confirm each other, through the traditional approach of historicism, and the day-year language of prophecy of the Reformers and so many before them.

 

 

Edited November 5, 2014 by PeteWaldo

[Enoch2021]

 

 

What I am saying is that I don't ascribe to any future 3-1/2 year or 7-year future period as being something that can be supported by scripture.

 

 

Well Scripture does Support it....

If scripture actually supported it you wouldn't have had to ignore the questions I closed my last two posts with.

Is Jesus the one sacrifice for sin forever or not?

Did Jesus already rebuild the temple in 3 days, nearly 2,000 years ago, or not?

 

 

 

==========================================================================================

 

 

If scripture actually supported it you wouldn't have had to ignore the questions I closed my last two posts with.

 

 

 

Non-Sequitur (Fallacy).  I didn't ignore them they were OFF TOPIC.  

 

The original posted rebuttal was in response to "Your" Statement....'then the whole world would then know they would have exactly 7 years to repent! So much for not knowing the day". 

From Here: 

 

 

And since..... you've "ducked and dodged" my simple rebuttal and introduced Multiple Ludicrous "Red Herrings" (Fallacy) over the past 10 posts to divert away from the topic:

 

The "Red Herring" (Fallacies)--- John Darby, Margaret Macdonald, Chuck Swindoll, koine greek, "Capitol Letters", Theileman van Braght, Matthew Henry, Isaac Newton, Jamison/Faucett/Brown, The Dome of the Rock, The Great Commission, The False Prophet Muhammad's Islamic Kingdom "beast", Jehovah witnesses, Charles Taze Russell, The Quran---and quotes thereof, some nice graphics, and countless Baseless Assertions (Fallacy).  And these are just from a cursory review of your replies.

 

I would be hesitant to ask you how much air pressure is in your tires.

 

ps. And I provided Scripture Support (above) in response to this: "What I am saying is that I don't ascribe to any future 3-1/2 year or 7-year future period as being something that can be supported by scripture."

[PeteWaldo]

 

 

 

What I am saying is that I don't ascribe to any future 3-1/2 year or 7-year future period as being something that can be supported by scripture.

 

 

Well Scripture does Support it....

If scripture actually supported it you wouldn't have had to ignore the questions I closed my last two posts with.

Is Jesus the one sacrifice for sin forever or not?

Did Jesus already rebuild the temple in 3 days, nearly 2,000 years ago, or not?

 

 

 

==========================================================================================

 

 

If scripture actually supported it you wouldn't have had to ignore the questions I closed my last two posts with.

 

 

 

Non-Sequitur (Fallacy).  I didn't ignore them they were OFF TOPIC.  

 

The original posted rebuttal was in response to "Your" Statement....'then the whole world would then know they would have exactly 7 years to repent! So much for not knowing the day". 

From Here: 

 

 

And since..... you've "ducked and dodged" my simple rebuttal and introduced Multiple Ludicrous "Red Herrings" (Fallacy) over the past 10 posts to divert away from the topic:

 

I understand why you would wish that the Gospel and location of the true tabernacle is off topic, regarding Darby's 7-year tribulation-rebuilt temple-pre-trib rapture-millennial-reign eschatological scheme.

I must have missed the rebuttal somewhere in your empty posting, unless you were referring to your own personal spin regarding a 3-1/2 year tribulation. The link you provided was to my own post. If you meant this......

 

The original posted rebuttal was in response to "Your" Statement....'then the whole world would then know they would have exactly 7 years to repent! So much for not knowing the day".

 

 

To which my reply to what you apparently believe was a "rebuttal" was:

 

Your issue isn't with me but with the tens of millions (in the U.S. alone) of John Darby styled futurists that refer to it as the "7-year tribulation" before which they believe that Margaret MacDonald/John Darby were right about being removed, from our "great commission". Perhaps the prophets, apostles and other Christians of the 1st century just weren't as pious as 21st century Christian are, to be "rewarded" with an escape from tribulation. But then that goes for the millions throughout the Christian era and particularly in the Middle East and northern Africa today.

 

 

First of all my reply that you cited was made to ARGOSY and ^j^, not in reply to some one-off personal belief that you have created for yourself.

My reply, which was intended to make a point, was based in the beliefs of tens of millions of evangelical Christians in the U.S. alone, who believe they will be raptured before a 7-year tribulation. Thus after they disappear, they would also presumably believe that the world would have 7-years to repent, before the Second Coming of Christ. Hilariously you even went on to indicate that Darby's pre-trib rapture doctrine would somehow remain a secret to the rest of the world that was "left behind", even though there would presumably be millions of back-slidden or never-saved-in-the-first-place self-deluded unrepent "Christians" left behind, who could educate the world as to what the sudden disappearance of millions of people around the world in a single moment was all about! One would think that should be enough to even get the boogieman "The" "Antichrist" to repent!

 

A tragic doctrine that offers the allure of judgment deferred - as opposed to one final judgment, at the Second Coming of Christ.

 

That you have created your own unique spin on the length of tribulation disagrees with them, only makes that statement invalid for you personally, which is irrelevant. What you are saying is the same as if you had any other unique one-off belief in the length of the tribulation perhaps something like: "Well gee, I believe that the tribulation is going to last 364 days, so if everybody was was getting ready for it to last 7 years, then they would all be putting off repenting until they were one day too late!"

 

For you or anybody else in this forum, if I missed answering a post that you would like me to respond to, please don't hesitate to provide me a link and I would be happy to respond, and would appreciate the same courtesy of reply.

 

I would have thought you would have learned your lesson - regarding your wishing away historical matters of fact and my citation of those great men of God of the Reformation that went before us that support me - and regarding your unrighteous judgments of my posts particularly after I took you to the woodshed for your false claims in this prior post. Which you completely ignored without even so much as an apology for your unrighteous judgment, in light of the matters of fact that were presented in my section by section exegesis:

Edited November 5, 2014 by PeteWaldo

[Last Daze]

What is the Purpose of the "Great Tribulation"?

 

 

If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God is testing you to find out if you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.  Deuteronomy 13:1-3

 

He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.  Daniel 12:9-10

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

==================================================================================================================

 

I don't chase down Fallacies, of which 98% of your replies are, as I have demonstrated, repeatedly. The other 2% is Baseless Conjecture...also, as I have shown.  

 

So until you can support what you say with Scripture, our conversation is quite over.

 

Hope you find the TRUTH.

[Enoch2021]

 

What is the Purpose of the "Great Tribulation"?

 

 

If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God is testing you to find out if you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.  Deuteronomy 13:1-3

 

He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.  Daniel 12:9-10

 

 

 

==========================================================================

 

The Purpose of the "Great Tribulation" is.....

 

(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

Who? "I"....Jesus.

 

"will go and return to my place".  To return to HIS place, HE had to of left it in the first place.  First Advent/Ascension.

 

"till they": Who are "They"?....The Jews.

 

"acknowledge their offence": what was the Jews Offence?  Rejected the Messiah.

 

"in their affliction": "Their"....The Jews.  "Affliction".....Time of affliction/Time of Jacob's Trouble/the "Great Tribulation".

 

"they will seek me early": They...The Jews.  "Early" is better translated "Earnestly".  They Jewish Remnant will seek HIM Earnestly....@ Bozrah/Petra.

 

 

The purpose of the "Great Tribulation" is to push the Jews to The Wall and for them to Corporately Petition HIM to return....and that they will!!

 

Has nothing whatsoever to do with HIS Bride...."The Church".  They already know HE is......THE KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

 

 

 

Think about it.  This should have all been over with Christ's Sacrifice.... should have ended it; satan had no cards left to play.  But he knows Scripture....satan's only Card left to play is killing the Jewish Remnant before they can Petition HIM to return.

That's his mission!  

 

It will be foiled quite Dramatically and Abruptly.

 

SEE IT ?