Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[Marilyn C]

Hi wingnut,

 

Those were some good thoughts there & I quite understand why you would say them. However I would like to show you from God`s perspective & see what He is doing, (as I believe it). (that is for the second part.)

 

1. Firstly Zech. 13 : 8 concerning the 2/3rds & then the half in Zech. 14: 2. You thought that there was a contradiction there & thus one had to be symbolic. However if we read the beginning of the sentence then all is clear.

 

`And it shall come to pass IN ALL THE LAND, says the Lord that 2/3rds in it shall be cut off & die...` (Zech. 13: 8)
`The CITY shall be taken ....HALF of the city shall go into captivity,....` (Zech. 14: 2)

 

Thus we see that the world armies have travelled down from Armageddon in the north, killing all Israelis as they go – 2/3rds in all the land, (the others are either in the city or in the mountains) & then finally the armies surround Jerusalem & take captive HALF of the people in the city. So you can see, wingnut, that that reads quite logically.

 

I agree with you concerning the Mt of olives splitting when Christ comes. Apparently there is a fault in the Mount that people have discovered when they wanted to build a hotel there.

 

Good summary of Zechariah there also, wingnut. I agree with you.

 

I`m off to sleep now but will finish the second part tomorrow. Blessings, Marilyn.

 

Edited January 7, 2015 by Marilyn C

[Salty]

 

 

Within Ezekiel 47 we are shown God's River flowing out from that temple sanctuary on earth, and feeding other waters on the earth, specific locales on earth given with it, and also a description of the tree of life on earth side of that River. That is... the River like was in Genesis 2 that flowed out from His Garden of Eden back then on earth, and then it fed four other rivers on the earth, two of them that can still be found on earth today (Euphrates and Tigris).

 

Thusly, that Ezekiel 47 example reveals a 'temple' on earth (God's House) where Jerusalem is today, with God's River and the tree of life, so we should easily know that is Christ's Millennial reign timing, since there is no more temple with the new heavens and a new earth. I mean, this is really easy.

 

Therefore, your use of Zech.14 and Rev.21 & 22 with completely leaving the Ezekiel 47 matter out shows what??

 

 

Hello salty,

 

If you were referring to me, I am not leaving this out, it just hadn't entered the discussion Marilyn and I were having.  What Ezekiel writes in chapter 47 is symbolic as well.  First off, we see the symbolic tie to the Garden of Eden and the creation account from Genesis.  This was a time before Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit.  The illustration here is to show that this is how eternity will be, only what is to come is imperishable.

 

The temple spoken of is clarified in Revelation, the Lord will be our temple, and from Him the living water flows.  What is illustrated is all the life that flourishes because of this living water.  The living water does not come until New Jerusalem, and neither does the tree of life.

 

God bless you.

 

 

What I wrote was not directed to you, she and I have been having a certain discussion of where Christ's future Millennial reign is, which I say is on this earth.

 

As for Ezekiel 47, I offered her that because it's obvious those events have a direct link to Revelation about Christ's future Kingdom reign over the wicked.

 

Therefore, I understand the birdseye connection you make about Genesis compared with Revelation, and thus that Ezekiel 47 chapter. But I do take those chapters in Ezekiel as mostly being literal. The animal sacrifice idea there I do not take as literal, since our Lord Jesus became one Perfect Sacrifice for sin for one and all time. But God's House, that River, and the tree of life there, all literal. A quick study about that River in Genesis 2 should easily reveal that it's meant literally.

[wingnut-]

Hi wingnut,

 

Those were some good thoughts there & I quite understand why you would say them. However I would like to show you from God`s perspective & see what He is doing, (as I believe it). (that is for the second part.)

 

1. Firstly Zech. 13 : 8 concerning the 2/3rds & then the half in Zech. 14: 2. You thought that there was a contradiction there & thus one had to be symbolic. However if we read the beginning of the sentence then all is clear.

 

`And it shall come to pass IN ALL THE LAND, says the Lord that 2/3rds in it shall be cut off & die...` (Zech. 13: 8)

`The CITY shall be taken ....HALF of the city shall go into captivity,....` (Zech. 14: 2)

 

Thus we see that the world armies have travelled down from Armageddon in the north, killing all Israelis as they go – 2/3rds in all the land, (the others are either in the city or in the mountains) & then finally the armies surround Jerusalem & take captive HALF of the people in the city. So you can see, wingnut, that that reads quite logically.

 

I agree with you concerning the Mt of olives splitting when Christ comes. Apparently there is a fault in the Mount that people have discovered when they wanted to build a hotel there.

 

Good summary of Zechariah there also, wingnut. I agree with you.

 

I`m off to sleep now but will finish the second part tomorrow. Blessings, Marilyn.

 

 

Hello again dear sister Marilyn,

 

I understand how you are arriving at your conclusions, as I've stated previously, I once held the same viewpoint as you.  I think the key though, is found in that first sentence as you said, from Zechariah 13.  When Zechariah divides the 2/3 and 1/3, he states that this is in "all the land."  Jerusalem is in the land, so this division in chapter 13 includes those within the city.

 

I don't disagree with you that some of the 2/3 will not leave Jerusalem, they are not His, so it is completely reasonable to assert that they will not heed the prophets.  They may not even know what the prophets said, because they are not His.  That being said, we must remember that Jerusalem is given over to the Gentiles for 42 months, or 3 1/2 years.  Keeping in mind that the Jews will rebuild their temple and resume sacrifices in the first 3 1/2 years, it is clear that this will not happen until the final 3 1/2 years, after the antichrist rises from the fatal head wound.  In chapter 14 Zechariah is discussing what happens at the very end, which is part of that time frame.

 

We also know from the prophets that the Jews who will come to know Jesus will flee, and they will be kept from Satan's reach, as well as sealed on their foreheads to keep them from the righteous judgements of God.  They are the 1/3 Zechariah spoke of.  The fact that they are kept from Satan's reach for the full 3 1/2 years means that they cannot be taken or overcome by the enemy in any way.  Now I understand you see this as part of the millenium, a literal thousand years, but you have to account for the "frosty darkness" Zechariah spoke of, which is a direct link to the opening of the 6th seal.

 

I look forward to your response, your input is extremely valuable.

 

God bless you.

[wingnut-]

 

What I wrote was not directed to you, she and I have been having a certain discussion of where Christ's future Millennial reign is, which I say is on this earth.

 

As for Ezekiel 47, I offered her that because it's obvious those events have a direct link to Revelation about Christ's future Kingdom reign over the wicked.

 

Therefore, I understand the birdseye connection you make about Genesis compared with Revelation, and thus that Ezekiel 47 chapter. But I do take those chapters in Ezekiel as mostly being literal. The animal sacrifice idea there I do not take as literal, since our Lord Jesus became one Perfect Sacrifice for sin for one and all time. But God's House, that River, and the tree of life there, all literal. A quick study about that River in Genesis 2 should easily reveal that it's meant literally.

 

 

Hello again salty,

 

I thought you were probably addressing Marilyn, but I wanted to make certain.  I understand your position, this is one of the few events that you and I disagree on, regarding the time of the millenium.  So, I agree with you that the temple, the river, and the tree are all literal, and a day is coming when we will all fix our eyes on them.  We just don't agree on when that is, and that is because of our view on the millenium itself.

 

I really only have one line of questioning for you in regards to the millenium.  Looking at just the Old Testament prophets, how many times is the millenium spoken of, and how many times do they attach a thousand years to it?  How many times is it referred to as a day?

 

I ask because I cannot find a single time that the prophets referred to this as a thousand years.  I know John did in Revelation, but I cannot seem to locate any other passage in which this is the case.  Keeping in mind that Revelation may be the most symbolic book in all of scripture, it appears to me that the millenium would fall in that category as well.  When we consider why John wrote the book in the style he did, it is not difficult to understand why it is unlike any other.  I am sure you already know these things, but I am going to give a brief summary for those who may not.

 

John was imprisoned on the isle of Patmos because of his faith in Jesus.  Before he was sent there, they had already boiled him in oil, intending to kill him.  John survived because the Lord was not done with him yet, which scared his captors, because when they boiled people in oil they were supposed to die.  This is why they sent him to Patmos, an island prison where they sent the most dangerous criminals.  John wrote Revelation while he was on the isle, but he still had to get his captors to take the book off of the island.  His crime was his faith, so they were not going to allow him to keep preaching about Jesus.  This is why the book is written as it is, to the unbeliever, it is gibberish.  It jumps and skips around, it is full of symbolism, and to those who do not know scripture to understand these symbols, it appears to be the rantings of a madman.  It is in Revelation that we are presented with the millenium, or the thousand years.  So what I am asking is if you have any scripture outside of Revelation that speaks of a thousand years?

 

I look forward to your response,

 

God bless you.

[Salty]

 

 

Hello again salty,

 

I thought you were probably addressing Marilyn, but I wanted to make certain.  I understand your position, this is one of the few events that you and I disagree on, regarding the time of the millenium.  So, I agree with you that the temple, the river, and the tree are all literal, and a day is coming when we will all fix our eyes on them.  We just don't agree on when that is, and that is because of our view on the millenium itself.

 

I really only have one line of questioning for you in regards to the millenium.  Looking at just the Old Testament prophets, how many times is the millenium spoken of, and how many times do they attach a thousand years to it?  How many times is it referred to as a day?

 

I ask because I cannot find a single time that the prophets referred to this as a thousand years.  I know John did in Revelation, but I cannot seem to locate any other passage in which this is the case.  Keeping in mind that Revelation may be the most symbolic book in all of scripture, it appears to me that the millenium would fall in that category as well.  When we consider why John wrote the book in the style he did, it is not difficult to understand why it is unlike any other.  I am sure you already know these things, but I am going to give a brief summary for those who may not.

 

John was imprisoned on the isle of Patmos because of his faith in Jesus.  Before he was sent there, they had already boiled him in oil, intending to kill him.  John survived because the Lord was not done with him yet, which scared his captors, because when they boiled people in oil they were supposed to die.  This is why they sent him to Patmos, an island prison where they sent the most dangerous criminals.  John wrote Revelation while he was on the isle, but he still had to get his captors to take the book off of the island.  His crime was his faith, so they were not going to allow him to keep preaching about Jesus.  This is why the book is written as it is, to the unbeliever, it is gibberish.  It jumps and skips around, it is full of symbolism, and to those who do not know scripture to understand these symbols, it appears to be the rantings of a madman.  It is in Revelation that we are presented with the millenium, or the thousand years.  So what I am asking is if you have any scripture outside of Revelation that speaks of a thousand years?

 

I look forward to your response,

 

God bless you.

 

 

Isaiah 24

19 The earth is utterly broken down , the earth is clean dissolved , the earth is moved exceedingly .

20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall , and not rise again .

21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22 And they shall be gathered together , as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited .

23 Then the moon shall be confounded , and the sun ashamed , when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before His ancients gloriously.

 

As far as I know, there is no literal "thousand years" reference like Rev.20 has within the OT prophets, but there are hints here and there. That one above reveals a certain amount of time passing between His reign in Jerusalem and then those locked in the pit prison being "visited" at some point later. The events written in the latter part of Zechariah 14 about those left that came upon Jerusalem being required to come up to Jerusalem and worship The King (Jesus) in that time also is a pointer, if you think about it.

 

Then there is the idea of 2 Peter 3:8, if you're given to understand it according to God's overall Plan timeline.

 

The other thing is that even in heavily symbolic sections of God's Word, when a specific time amount is given, and no instruction to go with it to show that it is symbolic, then it is to be taken literally; and that whether it's written in Revelation or any other Book. Ezekiel 4:5 is clear that the days he was given to show were symbolic of years. Doesn't mean to apply that formula in Ezek.4 anywhere else unless specifically mentioned. In Daniel 9 even the sevens represent literal time periods.

 

I recognize that many struggle with our Lord's Book of Revelation mainly because of not having studied the Books of the prophets first. Revelation is not a unique Book in God's Word when speaking of the symbology it contains, because that's how the OT prophets are written also, prophetic timelines jumping around quickly, sometimes within single phrases in one sentence, and lots of heavy metaphor. That's one of the main reasons why so many Christian brethren don't make an in-depth study of the OT prophets, nor can they find that many pastors well learned enough in it to teach it, nor do that many pastors that have studied it feel comfortable in teaching it, lest they might create confusion among the congregation. But I know of a Church in my area that has several evangelists to preach The Gospel, separate ministers to visit the brethren and administer, and then a learned scholar of the Hebrew and Greek that strictly teaches Bible and that's it. That's the actual separation of called offices by The Holy Spirit.

 

Because of this lacking in the majority of Churches, that's why I recommend E.W. Bullinger's KJV study Bible, The Companion Bible. It is the best KJV study Bible in print as far as I'm concerned, and I say that even though he held to the pre-trib rapture theory which became popular in his days in 1800's Great Britain. It's not a popular version among the Christian bookstores though, one mostly has to have them order a copy. But it's still in print. 

[Cyrus]

Which speaks to the Second Coming, here...

(Isaiah 63:1-6) "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. {2} Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat? {3} I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. {4} For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. {5} And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. {6} And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

Ahhh... Isaiah 63:1-6, one of my favorite OT prophecies...

which dovetails with Rev 19:11-21.

Isaiah 63 tells us whose blood has stained the garment

of God's holy warrior on the white horse... Edom's blood.

There is a wise old saying:

" Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

Those who understand history, know who Edom is today.

.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Cyrus

[Marilyn C]

Hello again dear sister Marilyn,

I understand how you are arriving at your conclusions, as I've stated previously, I once held the same viewpoint as you. I think the key though, is found in that first sentence as you said, from Zechariah 13. When Zechariah divides the 2/3 and 1/3, he states that this is in "all the land." Jerusalem is in the land, so this division in chapter 13 includes those within the city.

I don't disagree with you that some of the 2/3 will not leave Jerusalem, they are not His, so it is completely reasonable to assert that they will not heed the prophets. They may not even know what the prophets said, because they are not His. That being said, we must remember that Jerusalem is given over to the Gentiles for 42 months, or 3 1/2 years. Keeping in mind that the Jews will rebuild their temple and resume sacrifices in the first 3 1/2 years, it is clear that this will not happen until the final 3 1/2 years, after the antichrist rises from the fatal head wound. In chapter 14 Zechariah is discussing what happens at the very end, which is part of that time frame.

We also know from the prophets that the Jews who will come to know Jesus will flee, and they will be kept from Satan's reach, as well as sealed on their foreheads to keep them from the righteous judgements of God. They are the 1/3 Zechariah spoke of. The fact that they are kept from Satan's reach for the full 3 1/2 years means that they cannot be taken or overcome by the enemy in any way. Now I understand you see this as part of the millenium, a literal thousand years, but you have to account for the "frosty darkness" Zechariah spoke of, which is a direct link to the opening of the 6th seal.

I look forward to your response, your input is extremely valuable.

God bless you.

Hi wingnut,

I agree with a lot of what you say, 2/3rds killed, Jerusalem given over for 42mths, sacrifices resumed in first 3 ½ yrs, seemingly fatal wound of A/C & Zech. 14 shows what happens at the end of that time frame. Great we are agreeing there.

Not sure where you thought I believed this, for I don`t.

`They are the 1/3 Zechariah spoke of. The fact that they are kept from Satan's reach for the full 3 1/2 years means that they cannot be taken or overcome by the enemy in any way. Now I understand you see this as part of the millenium, a literal thousand years, but you have to account for the "frosty darkness" Zechariah spoke of, which is a direct link to the opening of the 6th seal.`

Seems we have much to agree on. Marilyn.

 

PS. We may have to start another thread, wingnut, as we have moved quite away from the topic. If you are still wanting to discuss this it would be better under its own title. What do you think?

 

Edited January 8, 2015 by Marilyn C

[Marilyn C]

Hi Salty,

 

I`m sorry I`ve lost the thread of our discussion amid chatting to wingnut. If you can remind me it would help.

 

God bless, Marilyn.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Marilyn C

[Marilyn C]

Hi wingnut,

 

I noticed you are up. What time is it in Michigan, USA. It is 5.36 PM in Victoria, Australia. We are settling in for the night & awaiting a summer storm. What`s happening your end?

 

Marilyn.  

[wingnut-]

Hello Marilyn,

 

It is almost 4am here, it is bitter cold outside, and I'm sitting here reading and thinking.