1st and 2nd Seal Opened? How can we know?

[precepts]

15 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Here's an odd thought:

What if the four horses simply represent conditions as result of actions? Is it possible the rider of the all four horses is the same and conquering, war, economic control(I don't see the third horse as economic collapse. All conquerors love tax revenue, yes?), and death are just attributes and/or actions of the one person, the beast, bringing about the aforementioned conditions?

 

Wow! I've never heard of economic collapse being the eyes of God.

[Last Daze]

21 hours ago, Diaste said:

First the point: Why is it the beast must be an evil angel from the pit, and have nothing to do with a person? What if this evil angel you cite indwells a person? It's possible this evil angel is just a spirit and needs a physical body to preform it's duties. Lots of precedent for that scenario. Maybe this is what you meant and I just didn't see it.

We don't have anything to indicate that the beast indwells a person.  There are a couple of verses however that do indicate that Satan indwells the false prophet, who I consider to be the man of sin, the son of perdition.

• That is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders.  2 Thessalonians 2:9
• Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon.  Revelation 13:11

The beast receives Satan's power, throne, and great authority.  Why would Satan give that to him?  It appears to me that the beast is temporarily in charge while Satan enters the false prophet.  Have you noticed that when the false prophet performs deceptive signs and wonders that he is always in the presence of the beast?  The beast is providing the supernatural support for Satan's agenda.

I'm not up on all of the ins and outs of evil spirits possessing people but it would seem to be an undesired limitation, unless it is serving a greater purpose, as in this case.  Satan has possessed the son of perdition once before for a specific purpose.  I suspect he'll do it again.

• And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, belonging to the number of the twelve.  Luke 22:3

[Diaste]

On 8/21/2016 at 5:46 PM, precepts said:

Wow! I've never heard of economic collapse being the eyes of God.

Not sure what you mean. Please explain?

 

[Diaste]

On 8/22/2016 at 7:07 AM, Last Daze said:

We don't have anything to indicate that the beast indwells a person.  There are a couple of verses however that do indicate that Satan indwells the false prophet, who I consider to be the man of sin, the son of perdition.

• That is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders.  2 Thessalonians 2:9
• Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon.  Revelation 13:11

The beast receives Satan's power, throne, and great authority.  Why would Satan give that to him?  It appears to me that the beast is temporarily in charge while Satan enters the false prophet.  Have you noticed that when the false prophet performs deceptive signs and wonders that he is always in the presence of the beast?  The beast is providing the supernatural support for Satan's agenda.

I'm not up on all of the ins and outs of evil spirits possessing people but it would seem to be an undesired limitation, unless it is serving a greater purpose, as in this case.  Satan has possessed the son of perdition once before for a specific purpose.  I suspect he'll do it again.

• And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, belonging to the number of the twelve.  Luke 22:3

Never have been clear on how some get to the false prophet as the man of sin, the son of perdition. It's the beast and the dragon that receive the worship and awe of the world. The false prophet is:

Rev 13

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

He's more the campaign manager for the beasts intensive subjugation of the earth. While the beast is:

Rev 13

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

This is the real power at the end of the age. A man of sin to be sure proclaiming himself god. 

[Last Daze]

5 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Never have been clear on how some get to the false prophet as the man of sin, the son of perdition. It's the beast and the dragon that receive the worship and awe of the world.

Yes, they do receive worship since they are the source of the amazement.  They are still evil angels.  They are worshiped by proxy since they are unseen.  The only human is the false prophet.  In my previous post I listed two verses that tie it together.

Again, the interplay amongst the evil trio is:

• the Dragon gives the beast his power, throne and great authority.  If you read that too quickly you'll miss the significance of that transaction.  Its not just some random thing Satan decided to do.  Its for a subsequent purpose.
• Satan enters the false prophet, the one who speaks as a dragon, whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan.
• The false prophet performs supernatural signs and wonders in the presence of the beast.  Satan is now "tapping into" what he gave the beast before he entered the false prophet.  The three work together, the false prophet being the only visible expression.  All worship of the false prophet is by proxy worship of Satan and the beast.   The world, sans believers, is deceived.

[Serving]

19 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Never have been clear on how some get to the false prophet as the man of sin, the son of perdition. It's the beast and the dragon that receive the worship and awe of the world. The false prophet is:

Rev 13

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

He's more the campaign manager for the beasts intensive subjugation of the earth.

Yes that one above  is the false prophet, agreed ..

Quote

While the beast is:

Rev 13

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

This is the real power at the end of the age. A man of sin to be sure proclaiming himself god. 

And that one above is the empire of the 10 kings which gets given to the false prophet to rule over.

Notice that "beast" was given a "mouth" .. that "mouth" is mentioned in Daniel, and that "mouth" is reference for the false prophet himself .. him who speaks marvellous words to wear out the saints before he .. notice this now, very important .. before HE (the false prophet) makes WAR against the saints and OVERCOMES THEM .. now notice v7 above, the beast does NOT command this thing against the saints, ONLY the false prophet does, the beast empire carries out his command, yes, but it is the false prophet himself commanding the warring against the saints .. that means that the beast above is BOTH the 10 king empire AND the false prophet being described together.

Notice what Daniel declares about this man :

Daniel 7

20 And of the ten horns that were in his head (the 10 kings of the coming empire), and of the other which came up (the false prophet), and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes (the false prophet), and a mouth that spake very great things (HIS mouth, the FP's mouth), whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

See?

HE makes war with the saints, the false prophet is the one giving the order for this thing as Rev 13:11-18 shows .. and he is the son of perdition and the man of sin too.

 

[WilliamL]

On 8/21/2016 at 5:30 PM, Diaste said:

Here's an odd thought:

What if the four horses simply represent conditions as result of actions? Is it possible the rider of the all four horses is the same and conquering, war, economic control(I don't see the third horse as economic collapse. All conquerors love tax revenue, yes?), and death are just attributes and/or actions of the one person, the beast, bringing about the aforementioned conditions?

The Beast shall ascend out of the Abyss (Rev. 11:7, 17:8), which is not opened until the 5th Trumpet (Rev. 9:1). Therefore, the Beast has nothing to do with the 4 horsemen/first 4 Seals, which all precede the Abyss being opened.

On 8/22/2016 at 7:07 AM, Last Daze said:

On 8/21/2016 at 9:00 AM, Diaste said:

First the point: Why is it the beast must be an evil angel from the pit, and have nothing to do with a person? What if this evil angel you cite indwells a person? It's possible this evil angel is just a spirit and needs a physical body to perform it's duties. Lots of precedent for that scenario. Maybe this is what you meant and I just didn't see it.

We don't have anything to indicate that the beast indwells a person.

Rev. 13:5 And there was given unto him [the Beast] a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

The Beast, like other angels (whether or not having fallen), can assume an earthly form, so does not necessarily need to possess a human. But as the above verse indicates, the Beast will have a human spokesman, the Mouth = Little Horn of Daniel 7:25, to be his representative/spokesman to the world. A precedent for this was when God made Aaron the "mouth" of Moses. Ex. 4:14-16

 

 

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The Beast shall ascend out of the Abyss (Rev. 11:7, 17:8), which is not opened until the 5th Trumpet (Rev. 9:1). Therefore, the Beast has nothing to do with the 4 horsemen/first 4 Seals, which all precede the Abyss being opened.

Rev. 13:5 And there was given unto him [the Beast] a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

The Beast, like other angels (whether or not having fallen), can assume an earthly form, so does not necessarily need to possess a human. But as the above verse indicates, the Beast will have a human spokesman, the Mouth = Little Horn of Daniel 7:25, to be his representative/spokesman to the world. A precedent for this was when God made Aaron the "mouth" of Moses. Ex. 4:14-16

 

 

What I read is far different from what you posit. The seals, trumps and bowls are not consecutive. They open, sound and pour in a concurrently successive linearity culminating at or near the the same time/space moment.  In other words, "It's all happening at once, more or less." There's a lot to post in this area so I'm not going into it here. Maybe we could take to another discussion? Both the beast and the false prophet are individuals empowered by Satan as the counterfeits. It's entirely possible, and likely, the beast is mortally wounded, is then in the abyss, and Satan is allowed to raise him from the dead and empower him. 

 

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, Serving said:

Yes that one above  is the false prophet, agreed ..

And that one above is the empire of the 10 kings which gets given to the false prophet to rule over.

Notice that "beast" was given a "mouth" .. that "mouth" is mentioned in Daniel, and that "mouth" is reference for the false prophet himself .. him who speaks marvellous words to wear out the saints before he .. notice this now, very important .. before HE (the false prophet) makes WAR against the saints and OVERCOMES THEM .. now notice v7 above, the beast does NOT command this thing against the saints, ONLY the false prophet does, the beast empire carries out his command, yes, but it is the false prophet himself commanding the warring against the saints .. that means that the beast above is BOTH the 10 king empire AND the false prophet being described together.

Notice what Daniel declares about this man :

Daniel 7

20 And of the ten horns that were in his head (the 10 kings of the coming empire), and of the other which came up (the false prophet), and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes (the false prophet), and a mouth that spake very great things (HIS mouth, the FP's mouth), whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

See?

HE makes war with the saints, the false prophet is the one giving the order for this thing as Rev 13:11-18 shows .. and he is the son of perdition and the man of sin too.

 

You simply assume the little horn is the false prophet to support a personal interpretation. I will never "See?" what you suggest as scripture contradicts this take.

Do you have any insight on the OP?

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Yes, they do receive worship since they are the source of the amazement.  They are still evil angels.  They are worshiped by proxy since they are unseen.  The only human is the false prophet.  In my previous post I listed two verses that tie it together.

Again, the interplay amongst the evil trio is:

• the Dragon gives the beast his power, throne and great authority.  If you read that too quickly you'll miss the significance of that transaction.  Its not just some random thing Satan decided to do.  Its for a subsequent purpose.
• Satan enters the false prophet, the one who speaks as a dragon, whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan.
• The false prophet performs supernatural signs and wonders in the presence of the beast.  Satan is now "tapping into" what he gave the beast before he entered the false prophet.  The three work together, the false prophet being the only visible expression.  All worship of the false prophet is by proxy worship of Satan and the beast.   The world, sans believers, is deceived.

The reason I went down this road is because I seem to see in scripture the beast rising at the first seal. This is why I'm wondering if the first seal has been opened and how we could know. It seems like we should be able to know as it's right there in Rev 4. Why even bring it up if we could not know with a certainty the time is now, or soon to come? If the rider of the first seal is the beast he cannot be unseen as it's clear there is a rider and he exhibits certain behaviors. He has a crown, that's not a covert characteristic. It's also obvious he has some type of power that's visible as there is a bow, which is not unseen either. If he is unseen the behaviors should be seen at the least or we could never know the first seal was open, something we are told is going to happen by the Lord Himself.