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AndyMan

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16 minutes ago, Yowm said:

lol, well, even statements like 'One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.' would be considered 'doctrinal truth'.

We'll just have to each 'be persuaded' in our own mind of what place the Sabbath has in the Christian walk. 

Personally I believe, we are commanded to keep the Sabbath. I see this law as fulfilled in Christ, where He worked and we are to enter into his rest ceasing from our work (for salvation). This does not mean we do nothing, but that all we do is from the finished work of Christ, out of thankfulness and in His strength. 

I have to respect your opinion, but in regards to the highlighted text why would the first word of the that particular commandment in the bible say Remember if it didn't matter and we just had to be persuaded in our own mind when and how we kept it holy or if it was even worth discussion because Christ fulfilled the law?

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Jesus did away with the seventh day Sabbath.

 

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18 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

The Sabbath Day in terms of the seventh day of the week is only given to Israel in Scripture.   It is never carried over as a commandment to the Church. 

Fair enough. You're by far one of the toughest debaters I've never had the chance of meeting so I get nervous when I feel compelled to respond to a post you submit....lol 

Is the Church commanded to assemble to worship God at all?  If so when should they?  If not, why do people care if a person attends a church or not if it's not an obligation to the christian?  

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Jesus did away with the seventh day Sabbath.

Rom. 14:5-6. Rom. 14:5, One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
V. 6, He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.


Gal. 4:9-10.
Gal. 4:9, But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
V. 10, Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.


Coll. 2:14-17;
Coll. 2:14, Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
V. 15, And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
V. 16, ¶ Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
V. 17, Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
 
Paul wrote, But why dost thou judge they brother? or why dost thou set at nought they brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ . . . . So the every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more."

If the law of Moses, including the fourth commandment, was in force in the new covenant the above statement would never have been written by Paul. Each Christian can do as he pleases concerning the Sabbath and is not to be judged by his brother "Any More."

Christian experiences do not come by the law. "Receive ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?. . . .the law is not of faith: but. the man who doeth them [things of the law] shall live in them. . . . how turn ye AGAIN to the weak beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire to be in bondage?" (Gal. 1:6-9; 2:15-21; 3:1-12, 19-25; 4:1-3, 19-31; 5:1-9, 11-21).

"Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years [that the law required]. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed labour upon you in vain" (Gal. 3:1-12; 4:9-11). Going back to observe Sabbaths according to the law is spoken of here as going back into the bondage of the law. If one does this he is a debtor to do the whole law (Gal. 5:3).

The law was added because of transgressions, TILL THE SEED [Christ] SHOULD COME to whom the promise was made . . . But before faith came [that Christ brought in the gospel and the new covenant, Heb. 12:1, 2],we were kept under the law, shut up unto that faith WHICH SHOULD AFTERWARDS BE REVEALED. . . .Wherefor the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, THAT we might be justified by faith. BUT AFTER that faith is come, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER A SCHOOLMASTER" (Gal 3:19-25). Not being under the law here is explained as being out from under its authority like one who is no longer under a schoolmaster when we graduate from school. The law is not in force and it has no claim or authority over the person under the new covenant. He is under the obligation to keep the new covenant laws and commandments, which include new laws that were never part of the old covenant, as well as those that God saw fit to make a part of the new covenant.

The law, including the ten commandments, has been "CAST OUT"; "Tell me YE DESIRE TO BE UNDER THE LAW, do ye not hear the law. For it is written that Abraham had TWO SONS. . . . he who was of the BONDWOMAN was born after the flesh; but he of the FREEWOMAN was by promise. WHICH THINGS ARE AN ALLEGORY: for THESE ARE THE TWO COVENANTS; THE ONE FROM MOUNT SINAI, which GENDERETH TO BONDAGE, is [Hagar]. . . .and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and IS IN BONDAGE with her children. But Jerusalem which is above IS FREE, which in the mother of us all. . . .Now we, brethren, as Isaac, are the children of promise. BUT AS EVEN SO IT IS NOW. Nevertheless what sayeth the Scripture? CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN [the first or old covenant FROM MOUNT SINAI]  AND HER SON [those under the law]; for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then brethren, WE ARE NOT CHILDREN OF THE BONDWOMAN [the old ten commandment covenant and its many laws], BUT OF THE FREE [the new covenant]. Stand fast therefor IN THE LIBERTY wherein Christ hath made us FREE, and BE NOT ENTANGLED AGAIN, WHITH THE YOKE OF BONDAGE [the old covenant]. . . .  For I testify again to every man that is circumcised [no man had any part in the old covenant unless he was circumcised], that he is a debtor TO DO THE WHOLE LAW" (Gal. 4:21-31; 5:1-5, 18).
 

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This question is open to anyone.  I understand and believe that Christs fulfilled the law of the old testatment.  and many of those are obvious such as him being the lamb and him being the door etc.  My question is how did Christ fulfill the 1st commandment of the 10? the 2nd?  all the way through the 10th.  Not sure I've ever heard this explained before.  Thanks for your responses in advance.

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21 minutes ago, Remnantrob said:

This question is open to anyone.  I understand and believe that Christs fulfilled the law of the old testatment.  and many of those are obvious such as him being the lamb and him being the door etc.  My question is how did Christ fulfill the 1st commandment of the 10? the 2nd?  all the way through the 10th.  Not sure I've ever heard this explained before.  Thanks for your responses in advance.

God's purpose in giving the law of Moses was that the law of Moses should govern Israel until the Messiah should come. It "Prophesied until John (Matt. 11:11-13; Luke 16:16-17).


Christian experiences do not come by the law. "Receive ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?. . . .the law is not of faith: but. the man who doeth them [things of the law] shall live in them. . . . how turn ye AGAIN to the weak beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire to be in bondage?" (Gal. 1:6-9; 2:15-21; 3:1-12, 19-25; 4:1-3, 19-31; 5:1-9, 11-21).

"Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years [that the law required]. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed labour upon you in vain" (Gal. 3:1-12; 4:9-11). Going back to observe Sabbaths according to the law is spoken of here as going back into the bondage of the law. If one does this he is a debtor to do the whole law (Gal. 5:3).

The law was added because of transgressions, TILL THE SEED [Christ] SHOULD COME to whom the promise was made . . . But before faith came [that Christ brought in the gospel and the new covenant, Heb. 12:1, 2],we were kept under the law, shut up unto that faith WHICH SHOULD AFTERWARDS BE REVEALED. . . .Wherefor the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, THAT we might be justified by faith. BUT AFTER that faith is come, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER A SCHOOLMASTER" (Gal 3:19-25). Not being under the law here is explained as being out from under its authority like one who is no longer under a schoolmaster when we graduate from school. The law is not in force and it has no claim or authority over the person under the new covenant. He is under the obligation to keep the new covenant laws and commandments, which include new laws that were never part of the old covenant, as well as those that God saw fit to make a part of the new covenant.

The law, including the ten commandments, has been "CAST OUT"; "Tell me YE DESIRE TO BE UNDER THE LAW, do ye not hear the law. For it is written that Abraham had TWO SONS. . . . he who was of the BONDWOMAN was born after the flesh; but he of the FREEWOMAN was by promise. WHICH THINGS ARE AN ALLEGORY: for THESE ARE THE TWO COVENANTS; THE ONE FROM MOUNT SINAI, which GENDERETH TO BONDAGE, is [Hagar]. . . .and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and IS IN BONDAGE with her children. But Jerusalem which is above IS FREE, which in the mother of us all. . . .Now we, brethren, as Isaac, are the children of promise. BUT AS EVEN SO IT IS NOW. Nevertheless what sayeth the Scripture? CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN [the first or old covenant FROM MOUNT SINAI]  AND HER SON [those under the law]; for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then brethren, WE ARE NOT CHILDREN OF THE BONDWOMAN [the old ten commandment covenant and its many laws], BUT OF THE FREE [the new covenant]. Stand fast therefor IN THE LIBERTY wherein Christ hath made us FREE, and BE NOT ENTANGLED AGAIN, WHITH THE YOKE OF BONDAGE [the old covenant]. . . .  For I testify again to every man that is circumcised [no man had any part in the old covenant unless he was circumcised], that he is a debtor TO DO THE WHOLE LAW" (Gal. 4:21-31; 5:1-5, 18).

 

Gal 3:13, Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

The law is now written in our hearts, not on stone.

Romans 2:12-15,

V. 12, For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
    13, (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
    14, For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15, Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience3 also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean4 while accusing or else excusing one another;)

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Now this is just an opinion and really that's what it amounts to. From what I can tell from church tradition is that since Sunday is the first day of the week and the Bible says that the women went to the tomb on the first day of the week and the tomb was empty that now somehow this substantiates that Sunday is now the day we set aside for the Lord.

For me we need to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together. So if that is Saturday, Sunday, Monday, etc we need to be together when we can. Tradition is not gospel or scriptural. It's because we are creatures of habit and that is what the church has been doing for a long time. But there is not straight up evidence in scripture that we are too meet for church on Sunday.

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Guest shiloh357
35 minutes ago, Remnantrob said:

Fair enough. You're by far one of the toughest debaters I've never had the chance of meeting so I get nervous when I feel compelled to respond to a post you submit....lol 

Is the Church commanded to assemble to worship God at all?  If so when should they?  If not, why do people care if a person attends a church or not if it's not an obligation to the christian?  

Sabbath is a day of rest, not necessarily a day of assembly.   Going to church isn't about keeping a commandment to assemble, and is never couched that way in the New Testament.   The reason we assemble on Sunday is has to do with fellowship and worship.  This is one way we connect with God and with one another.  We draw encouragement, strength and peace as we worship God together and study God's word together.   There is no biblical reason why a true follower of Jesus would want to avoid it.

We care because of the benefit that is drawn from fellowshipping together with like-minded believers.  It's not a case of slavish obedience, as if we are there to appease God.   God doesn't need to be appeased.  Worship is God's gift to us that we offer back up to Him.

Our Sabbath rest is found in Jesus.  The Sabbath day is a picture of Jesus, who is the ultimate Sabbath.   Jesus is our rest from sin, our rest from trying to earn God's favor.  It is our rest from any attempt to be saved by own merit.  Locus of our salvation is the merit of the finished work of Jesus on the cross.  God the Father raised Him from the dead, proving that He was satisfied with Jesus' sacrifice and it is fully sufficient and efficacious for us all. 

The Sabbath day  was for Israel.  The true Sabbath is Jesus and is for everyone. 

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The answers to questions being asked are in my last two posts. :thumbsup:

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In over one hundred languages throughout the world the seventh day is called ‘sabbath’ or its equivalent. Thus the seventh day is not just a day of rest for the Jews, but a day of rest for all peoples. This idea is confirmed for us in both the old testament and new testament of the scriptures. In Isaiah 56 the Lord declares through His prophet:

“Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold upon it: that keepeth the Sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord speak, saying, the Lord hath utterly separated me from his people; neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths and choose the things that please me and take hold of my covenant; even unto them will I give in my house and within my walls a place and a name better than the of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off. Also the sons of the stranger that join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants, every one that keepeth the Sabbath from polluting it and taketh hold of my covenant; even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer.”  Isaiah 56:2-7

And in the NT Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man. Man in that context was a generic term meaning mankind. And in Paul’s letter to the Hebrews he declares that there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, the same rest that God established at creation. It was an invitation to join with God and rest with Him, in peaceful and joyful fellowship as God did with our first parents in the beginning.

 

The Jewish people were blessed with something unique and very special. It was something which God intended they share with gentiles, for God always intended that all peoples should know Him. The pagan nations around Israel had their fertility rites, their initiations, their icons, their statues and idols. But Israel had a day. This day set them apart. But rather than share the Sabbath with others, Israel repeatedly ignored, neglected, or polluted it by introducing pagan practices into their religion. Their holiday in Babylon was greatly a direct result of their desecration of the Sabbath. By the time of Christ they had moved to the other extreme and burdened the Sabbath with so many added laws and regulations the day had become a curse rather than a blessing. Jesus came to reveal how the Sabbath was intended to be kept and to free it from the encumbrances of legalism. To heal on the Sabbath was scandalous to the rabbis. They accused Jesus of breaking the Sabbath, and because Jesus had such huge support and influence, it was partly through fear that the whole nation would begin ‘desecrating’ the Sabbath and of the subsequent judgments of God that the leaders of the nation sought to kill Him,    “But a certain one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all  nor do ye take account that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.” John 11:49,50, and that finally led to His crucifixion.

Jesus had numerous opportunities to speak of how the Sabbath was going to be changed or done away with. But rather than do this, all His debates and discussions with the rabbis and the people revolved around or were were focused on how the Sabbath was to be kept. He defied the human traditions and yes, Jesus did break the Sabbath, He broke it free from the rigid guidelines that made it a burden, and a rigid formality.

The early Christians saw the Christian faith as an advance on the OT Judaism, or a continuation, not a new religion. Calvary gave the Sabbath new significance, but did not annul it. The Sabbath is mentioned over 50 times in the NT directly related to times of fellowship, teaching, and preaching, and both Gentiles and Jews were there. This cannot be explained as is commonly done by some, that Paul was merely meeting with Jews to convert them on their Sabbath, and then meet with the converted on the next day. Nowhere is that suggested, not even once. History tells us that Christians were worshiping alongside Jews in the synagogues every Sabbath, but over a period of time Jews became less tolerant of this arrangement and the rabbis actually devised prayers that were to be said which exposed the Christians within the community. Prayers that denigrated the belief in Jesus as being Messiah. This made it very uncomfortable for Christians to continue meeting in the synagogues, but they did not forsake the Sabbath. They began to meet in their houses and in places like the riversides as Paul found in Thyatira.  Eventually, Christians found it impossible to worship in the synagogues and about that same time found themselves questioning their connections to the Jews, and with good reason. Much conflict around the early second century between the Jews and Rome began to impact the church. Not wanting to be recognized by Rome as being sympathetic or in any way involved with the Jews, some Christians began to abandon the Sabbath in favor of Sunday, which became an attractive alternative.

At this time also Sun worship increased in popularity with Rome. Mithra was particularly popular with the military, and Sunday became increasingly significant throughout the empire. Constantine established the first Sunday law in 321ad, and the church of Rome later adopted that day as its own. As late as the 5th century however there were still a majority of Christian churches that were still observing the Sabbath. The church leaders in Rome strongly encouraged resting on Sunday in accordance to the law, while at the same time imposing fasts and other strictures on the Sabbath. Councils such as that of Laodicea in the mid 4th century recognized the continuing popularity of the Sabbath observance, and instituted canons to further enforce Sunday and demote the Sabbath. Churches that abandoned the Sabbath altogether however were very much in the minority, as attested to by Socrates scholasticus when he wrote in the 4th century “ For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this.

Despite theological arguments, anti-Jewish prejudice, and empirical decrees, the Sabbath was still honored well into the 5th century and in places where the Roman church had less influence, much later, as in the Celtic churches in Britain and in the Ethiopian church and in the churches in the east.  It was not dead. In fact, the Sabbath issue became a greatly heated debate between popes and patriarchs throughout the ensuing centuries, and became a test of authority. Sunday became the sign of submission to papal authority, and was a major cause of the great rift within the Christian faith that remained for 900 years.

With that history in mind, and the lack of scriptural evidence in favor of any change to another day, I believe we can forever lay to rest the idea that Jesus or the apostles, or the scriptures themselves for that matter, had anything to do with any change or annulment of the seventh day Sabbath. Let us, at least in this matter, agree with the Church of Rome that responsibility for such a change can be laid squarely upon her shoulders. For it was the leaders, the popes, cardinals and bishops of that church who down through the ages from the 3rd century to the present day deliberately exalted Sunday and erroneously named that day the Lord’s Day; meanwhile persecuting Sabbath keepers, labeling them, among other things as 'Judaisers' and heretics, and have trampled upon the true Lord’s day and cast it aside.

The book of Revelation revals that a distinct part of the gospel for the last days is a call to worship our Creator.

Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Rev. 14:6 Jesus said that it was even then time to worship God in spirit, and in truth. It is time today even more so to cast aside our human assumptions and simply accept a "Thus saith the Lord" in respect to the Sabbath. To cast aside our man-made reasonings of spurious scriptures in order to defend a preconceived tradition.

 

It remains for the Christian today to “choose this day whom ye will serve”. It is for you friend to decide upon whose authority your faith is surrendered to. The Sabbath/Sunday issue is not merely a matter of rest, or even worship. It is a matter of authority. Whose day do you honor?

1. The Creator of the “heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and all that in them is”, who first established the Sabbath at creation, who being Jesus Himself was entitled to be designated "Lord of the Sabbath" and that day, and none other therefore being "the Lord's Day'.

2. The prelates and lawmakers of the Catholic church, the foster parents of the counterfeit day of rest and worship, the day of the Sun.

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